Prophecies, Viewings and Foreshadowing

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, Andra said:

I think we do.

Given the circumstances, my impression is that it's definitely Baby Joiya.  Who is important enough to be the subject of a viewing because she's a major decision point for him.

If it was anything else, he wouldn't look as much like he does now as he does in the viewing.  If it was his child with Min, his appearance would be completely different.  And no other kid of his would have that color hair.

 

No, I don't think so.  I grant that the visions that Min has can be metaphorical, but they come true.   Having a baby in a dream is not the same as having a baby.

 

2 hours ago, Andra said:

his appearance would be completely different

 

Why?  I think it's a reasonable CGI approximation of a much later baby.

[Andra]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Given the circumstances, my impression is that it's definitely Baby Joiya.  Who is important enough to be the subject of a viewing because she's a major decision point for him.

 

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

No, I don't think so.  I grant that the visions that Min has can be metaphorical, but they come true.   Having a baby in a dream is not the same as having a baby.

It came true.

He held a baby looked just like that, in just that way.

 

The fact that it happened inside a simulated reality created by "the man at the Eye" doesn't change the fact that it actually happened and involved a critical decision on his part.

Nothing in either the show or the books says her viewings have to exist physically.

 

A number of her viewings in the books - like those with Rand and LTT - have no physical existence.

 

Also, please note - the viewing doesn't say that he *has* a baby.  Just that he *holds* one.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

If it was anything else, he wouldn't look as much like he does now as he does in the viewing.  If it was his child with Min, his appearance would be completely different.  And no other kid of his would have that color hair.

 

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

Why?  I think it's a reasonable CGI approximation of a much later baby.

 

The "he" and "his" I was referring to was Rand.  Joiya (either the Black sister we haven't met yet or the baby) is female.  And baby Joiya is the same age in the "dream" as in Min's viewing.

I was saying that by the time any child that he and Min might have would be born, Rand would look completely different.

Even if he hadn't switched bodies with Moridin by then, he would be older, and missing a hand.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Andra

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

He held a baby looked just like that

 

Maybe I need new glasses, but I really don't think so.  The head size doesn't look the same and curls are missing.  However, since Min's viewings need not be literal - Egwene might turn into a white flame, but I'm hoping Nynaeve doesn't become a ring - this issue is moot.

 

 

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Rand would look completely different.

 

But still be Rand.  As the viewing need not be literal, this issue too is moot.

 

 

1 hour ago, Andra said:

The fact that it happened inside a simulated reality created by "the man at the Eye" doesn't change the fact that it actually happened and involved a critical decision on his part.

 

If things that happened in dreams started to be part of her visions, then it would reduce credibility regarding Bad Things that happen in real life.

Edited January 27, 2022 by EmreY

[Andra]

11 minutes ago, EmreY said:

If things that happened in dreams started to be part of her visions, then it would reduce credibility regarding Bad Things that happen in real life.

But it wasn't remotely just something he dreamed.

It was quite literally the most important thing he has yet experienced in his entire life.

 

Her viewings are about important decisions and events.

 

And nothing in three thousand years has been as important to the whole world as the decision he made there.

[VooDooNut]

20 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Maybe I need new glasses, but I really don't think so.  The head size doesn't look the same and curls are missing.  However, since Min's viewings need not be literal - Egwene might turn into a white flame, but I'm hoping Nynaeve doesn't become a ring - this issue is moot.

 

 

 

But still be Rand.  As the viewing need not be literal, this issue too is moot.

 

 

 

If things that happened in dreams started to be part of her visions, then it would reduce credibility regarding Bad Things that happen in real life.

Episode 7: Min's Vision

Episode 8: Ishys Illusion

 

It looks like Min's viewing baby is younger than Ishy's illusion baby.

Edited January 27, 2022 by VooDooNut

[DaddyFinn]

Based on those pictures, I assume that Joiya is 1-2 years old and the other baby is less than a year. They also have slightly different skin color or it's the lighting. The clothes are very similar though.

Edited January 27, 2022 by DaddyFinn
So many edits

[Andra]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Based on those pictures, I assume that Joiya is 1-2 years old and the other baby is less than a year. They also have slightly different skin color or it's the lighting. The clothes are very similar though.

In both the viewing and the "dream," his skin tone is almost identical with the baby's.

Both are lighter in the viewing - which means it's a factor of how they're shown, rather than an actual difference between them.

And I don't really see the difference in age that you describe.  Compare the size of the baby's head with the size of Rand's hands.

 

To me the scene looks close enough to be obviously intending to show the same thing.  Especially given the similarity in the clothes between the two images.

 

I don't really see any reason to look at those two shots and say they're NOT the same two figures.

 

---

Also, the Wheel of Time Wiki (which is supposedly canon when referring to the show) lists Joiya al'Thor as appearing in both Eps. 7 & 8.

Joiya al'Thor | The Wheel of Time Wiki | Fandom

 

So whatever debate we might have here about how close in appearance the two are, the show says they're the same.

 

Of course, the Wiki still calls their home village "Emond's Field."  And the show never uses the name.

 

So who knows what's an authority and what isn't.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Andra

[EmreY]

Also not helped by IMDB not crediting the infant. ? 

[Andra]

8 hours ago, EmreY said:

Also not helped by IMDB not crediting the infant. ? 

Yep.

 

 

Interestingly enough, one of my objections to the way credits have been listed crops up (again) for that last episode.  Throughout the season, characters are named in the credits whose names are never given in the show itself.  Like Bran al'Vere, or the Grinwells.  

 

In the books it took several volumes to learn who Rand's mother was.  The readers may have suspected, but it wasn't confirmed.  In the show, it's given away in the credits in Season 1.  Before we're even told about the Aiel War.