Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[dwn]

4 hours ago, TheSmurf said:

It's kind of telling that we know the importance of the bond better than we do, for example, the prophesies of the Dragon. For my Wife and I, we wish our kids watching had been told more about the Dragon at this point.

 

Prophesy--particularly around a religious figure--is something that most people have heard of before, so introducing the Karaethon Cycle later and/or piecemeal is unlikely to confuse anyone. The Warder Bond is entirely in-world, and while parallels exist in other fantasy, is something that most viewers will need some hand-holding to understand.

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

 

Thumbs up for the Potter Stewart reference. Lawyer me approves.

[swollymammoth]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What is this tissue? What has been 'gutted'?

 

I mean, if you even have to ask then there's no point breaking it down for you, in large part because I would just be repeating stuff I've said a dozen times already on this forum. 

 

Look. I get it. I once knew a guy named Rand, and I couldn't help but want to be his friend solely for that reason. I understand why people are so willing to cut the character writing in this show so much slack. 

 

However, if you need to be told why taking so much time to focus on a show original character when your show already features 5 characters who are all being given equal billing in service of a pointless "Who's the Dragon?" mystery and you've only got 8 episodes to work with is a bad idea, then I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Priorities for this first season should have been as follows: 

1. Develop Rand as a character. With such limited screen time available, he should have been the primary focus. 

2. Make Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve interesting without hogging screen time. Sow seeds for development in future seasons while still ensuring they are likeable. 

3. Present relevant worldbuilding information in short, well executed scenes (such as the trio singing the Manetheren song! That was good!) and through environmental details. 

4. Sell the audience on the struggle against the Dark One and the threat of the Dragon which is going to be the long term plot of the show. 

5. Don't try to remake the wheel (pun intended). If the books did something right, and that would work in television, keep it. 

... 

194. Make sure the audience understands the Warder/Aes Sedai bond. 

[Theseus78]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Priorities for this first season should have been as follows: 

1. Develop Rand as a character. With such limited screen time available, he should have been the primary focus. 

2. Make Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve interesting without hogging screen time. Sow seeds for development in future seasons while still ensuring they are likeable. 

Just saying that RJ2 specifically said that they were going to be making it more of an ensemble production from the beginning.  The focus wasn't going to be on Rand.  Personally, I think it works, because the story as a whole is an ensemble production in the long run in the books.  

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, if you even have to ask then there's no point breaking it down for you, in large part because I would just be repeating stuff I've said a dozen times already on this forum. 

 

Priorities for this first season should have been as follows: 

1. Develop Rand as a character. With such limited screen time available, he should have been the primary focus. 

2. Make Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve interesting without hogging screen time. Sow seeds for development in future seasons while still ensuring they are likeable. 

3. Present relevant worldbuilding information in short, well executed scenes (such as the trio singing the Manetheren song! That was good!) and through environmental details. 

4. Sell the audience on the struggle against the Dark One and the threat of the Dragon which is going to be the long term plot of the show. 

5. Don't try to remake the wheel (pun intended). If the books did something right, and that would work in television, keep it. 

... 

194. Make sure the audience understands the Warder/Aes Sedai bond. 

First of all, don't pull the "If I have to explain it then there's no point."  It's a nonsense argument.

In regard to your priorities.

1: Rand needs to be developed WITH the other characters because Moraine doesn't know who the Dragon is.  For the record, he's shown he's a loyal friend, cool under pressure, wants a simple small life, is naturally a peacemaker and leader when he chooses to be, we've also seen hints of his particular hang up with women.  Could you share what you think is missing?

2: Make them interesting without hogging screentime?  What  you want Mat to be a non-entity for the entire first season and Perrin and Egwene to not get their arcs?

3: The trio singing Manetheren is a scene that non-book fans have complained about several times as being an info dump instead of good world building.  On the other hand, the Kerene and Stepin stuff did build the world, even if it could have been a bit shorter.

4: Pretty sure we sold the threat of the Dark One with the Trolloc raid and the Fade, then again with Dana being a villain out of nowhere proving you can't even trust people.  Logain shows the threat of the dragon quite well.  

5: Such as?  Your opinion is not fact, but be happy to discuss actual points.

Then you put the Warder Bond as "194" despite insisting that we need world building as #3.  The Warder bond is a significant part of the world and important to the plot overall.

[fra85uk]

Honestly point 4 is a total miss: there is no sense of urgency in this show. Ep4 Mat and Rand hunted by a fade, ep5...one month later. Come on!

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Honestly point 4 is a total miss: there is no sense of urgency in this show. Ep4 Mat and Rand hunted by a fade, ep5...one month later. Come on!

I think the Fade is afraid of Mat's dagger, no?

[ArrylT]

4 hours ago, Theseus78 said:

It's book writing 101, but TV writing?  Have this conversation, and then this one, and then say this.  Blah blah blah.  People were complaining about Moraine's Manetheren info dump as being too much talking.  While I think they took too much time with the Stepin arc, it's way better than a ton of exposition later. 

 

Absolutely.    It is, imo, always easier & faster to read something to yourself than it is to read it outloud to someone else as a a memorised speech.    Using the Manetheren speech by Moiraine I have no doubt that the full speech given, as much as I would have loved to see it, at the Inn would have taken way longer than the 3 minutes Moiraines version on horseback took.   

 

Harry Potter books - the shortest was about 77 000 words.  The shortest 1 Book HP film was 2h 18.

 

The screenplay for the theatre production Cursed Child - 46 000 words - yet the play itself is about 3h30 (with intermission so probably 3h).

 

We already know the audio book for EOTW is about 29 1 hour episodes long, and the entire WOT I think is about 17 or 18 days long in audio format?

 

The information we read is transmitted much faster than it is being read to us, or spoken to us or shown to us, imho.

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by ArrylT

[TheDreadReader]

16 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

3: The trio singing Manetheren is a scene that non-book fans have complained about several times as being an info dump instead of good world building.  On the other hand, the Kerene and Stepin stuff did build the world, even if it could have been a bit shorter.
 

 

Not arguing any point here really, I am just making a prediction on this point.

 

In the books, the idea of "Manetheren" creates a buzz in Fal Dara when they arrive there.  With Lan included, we have representatives of two kingdoms lost to the shadow at the same location.  The culture of the borderlands would take note of that.   Hence, I think that we'll see some of the Manetheren worldbuilding pay off a little in episodes 7 & 8.

 

 

[ArrylT]

3 hours ago, Deviations said:

Here is another: I guess I'm the only person here fixated on Rand's journey with the flute.  At the end of his journey, he goes of into the sunset content to explore the land.  The book doesn't mention the flute but the feel of it is there.

 

I am currently re-reading EOTW - just about to get to Whitebridge.   I honestly vaguely remember the flute but I'll be more on the look out now - and I appreciate that concept - of Rand exploring the land and playing the flute - perhaps as a gleeman?

[KakitaOCU]

25 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Honestly point 4 is a total miss: there is no sense of urgency in this show. Ep4 Mat and Rand hunted by a fade, ep5...one month later. Come on!

Because it takes a month to get from Two Rivers to Tar Valon?  

[ArrylT]

33 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

Just saying that RJ2 specifically said that they were going to be making it more of an ensemble production from the beginning.  The focus wasn't going to be on Rand.  Personally, I think it works, because the story as a whole is an ensemble production in the long run in the books.  

 

If anyone is curious - and has a fair amount of free time (I'd estimate 25-30min) I just discovered this statistical analysis on the WOT and it goes really deep into character POV from every aspect - gender / nationality / type of career / ajah representation.  Even how long the viewpoint chapters compared from book to book.

 

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/statistical-analysis-wheel-time/

 

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

13 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

It's the  that I'm supposed to give about him. That's what's missing. 

That's not a tangible or objective point to be made.  If you're answer is you don't like the character, okay, no further discussion.

But this is the Rand of Book 1.  This is who he was then.

Edited December 7, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[swollymammoth]

46 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

3: The trio singing Manetheren is a scene that non-book fans have complained about several times as being an info dump instead of good world building.  On the other hand, the Kerene and Stepin stuff did build the world, even if it could have been a bit shorter.

Yeah, um. Guess what? I'm not those people. I'm my own person and I have my own opinions. This was a good idea. It was quick and cool and did work. Stepin taking up as much time as he did in a series where time is extremely limited as it is? Bad idea. 

 

If you think that everyone you disagree with is just like "All changes from the book are bad!" then I hate to disappoint you. 

47 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

4: Pretty sure we sold the threat of the Dark One with the Trolloc raid and the Fade, then again with Dana being a villain out of nowhere proving you can't even trust people.  Logain shows the threat of the dragon quite well. 

Didn't say that they didn't do this. My list of priorities isn't a "here's things they didn't do" list. They did this just fine (though IMO it could have been much, much better). 

 

48 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

5: Such as?  Your opinion is not fact, but be happy to discuss actual points.

See, like, all my posting history. I've talked about this stuff all over this forum. 

To name a few: 

1. Nynaeve's motivation to leave Two Rivers 

2. Nynaeve's reason for hating Moiraine 

3. Nynaeve's reason for being able to track

4. Perrin being married 

5. Beginning with a full ensemble cast instead of growing into one over the course of the story. 

6. The Dragon being either a boy or a girl 

7. The stupid sacred pool in the Two Rivers

8. Matt's backstory and his attachment to his sisters

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Theseus78 said:

Personally, I think it works, because the story as a whole is an ensemble production in the long run in the books. 

WoT's ensemble is awesome. I think it would have been better to ease into it over the course of the series and focus mainly on Rand and Egwene in the 1st season. Remove the "Who's the Dragon?" mystery. Have Moiraine just say that "The Dark One is after you" and leave the official reveal that it's because one of them is the Dragon Reborn until the end of the season. If the audience figures it out beforehand, whatever. That's how the book is, and that never stopped it from selling millions of copies. Narrow the focus and deepen the engagement. Recognize the limitations of an 8 hour series and adapt but don't use that as an excuse to just do whatever you want. 

[Sabio]

It's great they did a little deeper into some of the non main characters.  I liked Steph, but they have just spent too much time on people who just ended up dying or like Logain  won't be seen for awhile.  Yes they planted the seeds for warder bond etc. but you get invested in these people and poof their gone only for the show to skip the people we are suppose to be caring about.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Sabio

[Ralph]

3 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Is Egwene not a mary sue? 

 

Don't you mean Amaresu? 

[phoenixtrinity]

15 hours ago, Maximillion said:

I did not describe nor attempt to open up a discussion on the definition of stoicism. Sorry you are insulted.

 

 Lan is stoic in the books and anything but in the TV series.

I described him as a blubbering wreck in the TV series because that is what I have seen on screen. There are no assumptions required.

 

 

 

 

In reflection, I was hasty to reply to you initially, and I apologize for my implied tone. However, by saying "Lan is stoic in the books and anything but in the TV series." you are making a statement about the definition of what a stoic is. I am sorry you feel that his character has been ruined, though. I guess I can't think of any times he cries (blubbers) in the show except maybe at the funeral, and I don't even remember if he cries at the funeral (but I'm guessing he does because you have mentioned it several times and I trust that.)

[Katherine]

2 hours ago, Theseus78 said:

Just saying that RJ2 specifically said that they were going to be making it more of an ensemble production from the beginning.  The focus wasn't going to be on Rand.  Personally, I think it works, because the story as a whole is an ensemble production in the long run in the books.  

 
He did say that. And the en he and the writers engaged in the “ who is the dragon” mystery. So he is trying to have an ensemble show while AT THE SAME TIME putting one character over all the others in a over arching plot mystery. Right now, those two visions aren’t meshing well.

[themann1086]

Wasn't sure where to put this but I think this is probably the right place...

 

Amazon Prime Romania has a new teaser video for the show that includes a couple new shots/lines, most notably what appears to be Rand in the Blight. I've added a video by Wheel of Time Theory who goes through the whole thing (maybe a little bit more dialogue from Moiraine and a creepy new shot of a Fade). Seems to me we're getting the Eye this season.

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

7 hours ago, Deviations said:

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'd ask you this: what key book moment have we missed? I can think of only two so far:  Perrin did not kill a Whitecloak (at least he hasn't yet), and Rand did not fall into the palace Garden. Otherwise, the main beats of EotW are all present in the tv show. 

Here is one:  Nyn vs Moraine with the rest present at the Queen's Blessing.

Here is another: Perrin meeting Elyas and the wolves - Perrin's interaction with the wolves so far is less than understandable for anyone who hasn't read the books

Here is another: I guess I'm the only person here fixated on Rand's journey with the flute.  At the end of his journey, he goes of into the sunset content to explore the land.  The book doesn't mention the flute but the feel of it is there.

Unnecessary pedantry - the scene you are thinking about was at the Stag and Lion in Baerlon not the Queen's Blessing in caemlyn - relating to how N found the right inn so quickly due to sensing those you have healed. No need to convince N she can channel in this version of events so the scene is redundant.

[Sabio]

On 11/30/2021 at 3:25 PM, Agitel said:

 

Book spoilers.

 

  Hide contents

So do Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

 

Logain lead an army for conquest and power, Rand Mat and Perin didn't.

[Sabio]

2 hours ago, themann1086 said:

Wasn't sure where to put this but I think this is probably the right place...

 

Amazon Prime Romania has a new teaser video for the show that includes a couple new shots/lines, most notably what appears to be Rand in the Blight. I've added a video by Wheel of Time Theory who goes through the whole thing (maybe a little bit more dialogue from Moiraine and a creepy new shot of a Fade). Seems to me we're getting the Eye this season.

 

 

Season 1 is suppose to cover book 1 and some of book 2.  I think a cool place for Season 2 to start would be the group getting ready to head out after Fain.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Sabio

[fra85uk]

5 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Because it takes a month to get from Two Rivers to Tar Valon?  

Really? 

So trollocs and fade at the chase, they all decided to take a one month nap. ?

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Because it takes a month to get from Two Rivers to Tar Valon?  

They have been on the road from Aine 8th to Adar 20th so around 40 days. Sure, they aren't exactly moving as fast as possible.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Aine

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by DaddyFinn