tv show spoilers White Cloaks - Bad writing or ? - TV show spoilers ahead!

[JJLXL]

Spoiler

Ok, the burning scene was fine.  You can explain away why the Aes Sedai didn't fight her way out.

 

The scene with Moiraine was either terribly written or there have been big changes.  Maybe both? 

 

First of all, White Cloaks would recognize(at the very least) Aes Sedai agelessness.  The fact that they didn't(Valda especially) is proof of bad writing or agelessness is totally out. 

 

Second, they would recognize a Warder traveling with his Aes Sedai.  This could be explained away I guess, so not a huge deal.

 

Third, and my biggest critique.  White Cloaks are kind of like Hyenas.  Generally speaking they're a bit cowardly on their own, but ferocious in numbers.  They clearly had the upper hand with the Dragon troop.  Why wouldn't Valda have simply asked Moiraine if she were Aes Sedai?  She couldn't lie, and if she stalled with a wordy answer, they would have seized them all. Bad writing or??  If there were any suspicions whatsoever, why wouldn't White Cloaks simply ask the woman if she is Aes Sedai?

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by JJLXL

[Agitel]

Agelessness is definitely out.

 

To my knowledge, spoilers aren't something that need to be hidden if you're clear in in title and flags.

 

While we can speculate either way, I'd just like to point out that the season isn't done and we will see the White Cloaks again, so I'd be wary of posting any certain conclusions about the consistency of the writing team until we see how it all plays out.

 

Just to tally off some justifications for what we saw:

• Valda no doubt considers Darkfriends and liars. His own wrong assumption might be working against him.
• On the above point, Valda may have encountered some channelers or Aes Sedai (Black Ajah) who could lie.
• I'm becoming more fond of the theory that Valda did have his suspicions, but making her feel like she was in immediate danger is a good way to get a fireball or a warder sword to the face. I suspect his approach to the Aes Sedai is based much more on surprise and following up later on leads, given the obvious dangers. We may see more scenes or exposition on that next time we see the White Cloaks.

I mean, there's the obvious "the writers are having trouble being consistent and I was an oversight" take to the issue, and maybe. But we are going to see more, so it all still could be addressed. We can't be sure yet.

[JJLXL]

Yeah, I don't buy it.  White Cloaks are ruthless.  Questioners are borderline evil.  They had the upper hand by a fair margin.  I'm gonna go ahead and say it was a poorly written scene.

[Agitel]

I've said my thoughts, nothing much else for me to add until the rest of season one plays out.

[king of nowhere]

19 minutes ago, JJLXL said:

First of all, White Cloaks would recognize(at the very least) Aes Sedai agelessness.  The fact that they didn't(Valda especially) is proof of bad writing or agelessness is totally out.

 

did you see any agelessness in the show?

rafe confirmed there is no agelessness at least 6 months ago. mostly for practical reasons (how would you pull it out in practice?)
 

Quote

 

Second, they would recognize a Warder traveling with his Aes Sedai.  This could be explained away I guess, so not a huge deal.

 

 

if there is no agelessness to recognize an aes sedai, and no color-shifting cloak, then there is no way to tell Lan from any other bodyguard

Keep in mind, to us it's clear she's aes sedai. but we know aes sedai are 1000 in the whole world (993 now, thanks to valda's effort); what are the chances of casually meeting one while on your business on a minor road? what are the chances of meeting a noble lady, or a rich merchant lady, with a bodyguard and a bit of a retinue instead?

It's like spotting a famous actor in the street. you go "naah, what are the odds? there must be thousands of look-alikes, he's certainly one of those"

Quote

Third, and my biggest critique.  White Cloaks are kind of like Hyenas.  Generally speaking they're a bit cowardly on their own, but ferocious in numbers.  They clearly had the upper hand with the Dragon troop.  Why wouldn't Valda have simply asked Moiraine if she were Aes Sedai?  She couldn't lie, and if she stalled with a wordy answer, they would have seized them all. Bad writing or??  If there were any suspicions whatsoever, why wouldn't White Cloaks simply ask the woman if she is Aes Sedai?

First, whitecloaks believe the three oaths are fabrications.

but second, most important, valda may have had enough troops to overwhelm moiraine (maybe), but he was on the front line; he'd have died first for sure.

 

so, even if he actually recognized the mark of the ring on the finger with certainty, the smart thing would have been to play dumb, let them go, and then follow and pepper them with arrows while they sleep. Or, even better, knowing the aes sedai is wounded badly, follow them from afar and wait for her to be further weakened before attacking.

Maybe he recognized the line about the "sister in whitebridge", and he already killed her, so he figured she'd go to whitebridge to get healing, find nobody, and die to the poison, and no need to risk your own life to get her when she's doomed anyway.

[Kudzu]

Is this thread book spoilers? 

Spoiler

In EoTW, Moiraine very effectively cowed a bunch of Whitecloaks with a simple illusion. She made it very obvious she was Aes Sedai and they didn't chase after them.

 

[king of nowhere]

22 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

Is this thread book spoilers? 

  Hide contents

In EoTW, Moiraine very effectively cowed a bunch of Whitecloaks with a simple illusion. She made it very obvious she was Aes Sedai and they didn't chase after them.

 

in the books, though,

Spoiler

there were only 6 of them

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by king of nowhere

[JJLXL]

Why not ask "Are you Aes Sedai?", if there was any suspicion?  They admitted to the whitecloaks they had been around shadow spawn.  That's enough for them. 

 

Even if they don't believe the three oaths, they could still see how she would act if asked.  Also, White Cloaks, Questioners in particular, would have long proven the lie oath to be true during questioning of captured Aes Sedai.   Even if they outwardly call the oaths lies, Questioners would know better. 

[king of nowhere]

13 minutes ago, JJLXL said:

Why not ask "Are you Aes Sedai?", if there was any suspicion?  They admitted to the whitecloaks they had been around shadow spawn.  That's enough for them. 

 

Even if they don't believe the three oaths, they could still see how she would act if asked.  Also, White Cloaks, Questioners in particular, would have long proven the lie oath to be true during questioning of captured Aes Sedai.   Even if they outwardly call the oaths lies, Questioners would know better. 

i already answered that stuff in full, including all your options.

 

[Theseus78]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

but second, most important, valda may have had enough troops to overwhelm moiraine (maybe), but he was on the front line; he'd have died first for sure.

This.  Valda cares more about Valda than anything else.  His Aes Sedai killing is probably more about his reputation among the Whitecloaks than it is about reducing the number of Aes Sedai. 

[JJLXL]

Never said Valda would be stupid about it.  Like you said, he'd call for archers, or some such device.  She wouldn't attack him for asking a question.  Not unless she was in acual real danger.  Heck, there was a point in the books where Aes Sedai couldn't attack trollocks because they weren't close enough in proximity to pose a real threat.

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

i already answered that stuff in full

You didn't though.  I countered with a very plausible explanation of why the White Cloaks(Questioners at least) would know real Aes Sedai couldn't lie, even if they boasted about the oaths being lies.  You think Questioners wouldn't try to prove that oath one way or another under the question?

 

Anyways.  I think the scene was poorly written, and I hope to be proven wrong about it by later episodes. 

All in all I am liking the show.  They sure are rushing through some stuff.  I knew they would, but it seems they've covered a lot of book one in 3 episodes.  Seems a tad fast.  I'll have to question a few people I know who haven't read the books, to see what they think.  

Edited November 25, 2021 by JJLXL

[king of nowhere]

1 minute ago, JJLXL said:

Never said Valda would be stupid about it.  Like you said, he'd call for archers, or some such device.  She wouldn't attack him for asking a question.  Not unless she was in acual real danger.  Heck, there was a point in the books where Aes Sedai couldn't attack trollocks because they weren't close enough in proximity to pose a real threat.

wrong.

in the books, the oath specifically mentioned shadowspawn as being exempted.

you think of shaido, maybe.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, JJLXL said:

You didn't though.  I countered with a very plausible explanation of why the White Cloaks(Questioners at least) would know real Aes Sedai couldn't lie, even if they boasted about the oaths being lies.  You think Questioners wouldn't try to prove that oath one way or another under the question?

 

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

but second, most important, valda may have had enough troops to overwhelm moiraine (maybe), but he was on the front line; he'd have died first for sure.

 

so, even if he actually recognized the mark of the ring on the finger with certainty, the smart thing would have been to play dumb, let them go, and then follow and pepper them with arrows while they sleep. Or, even better, knowing the aes sedai is wounded badly, follow them from afar and wait for her to be further weakened before attacking.

Maybe he recognized the line about the "sister in whitebridge", and he already killed her, so he figured she'd go to whitebridge to get healing, find nobody, and die to the poison, and no need to risk your own life to get her when she's doomed anyway.

oh, by the way. moiraine may not be able to blast valda for asking. but lan would not be so inhibited.

or, she could bind him in air and set the weaves to unravel in a day, that would be something she'd be perfectly capable of doing without violating oaths.

[Kudzu]

1 hour ago, JJLXL said:

Why not ask "Are you Aes Sedai?", if there was any suspicion?  They admitted to the Whitecloaks they had been around shadow spawn.  That's enough for them. 

Because he didn't want to force a confrontation at that point. We have no knowledge yet what Valda's methods are, what his experiences are with channeling, maybe he's tried that before and he nearly ended up dead. There's no reason to think he would be so rash. He said he'd remember there faces and has deliberately separated himself from the more reasonable Whitecloaks.

 

1 hour ago, JJLXL said:

Why not ask "Are you Aes Sedai?", if there was any suspicion?  They admitted to the whitecloaks they had been around shadow spawn.  That's enough for them. 

 

Even if they don't believe the three oaths, they could still see how she would act if asked.  Also, White Cloaks, Questioners in particular, would have long proven the lie oath to be true during questioning of captured Aes Sedai.   Even if they outwardly call the oaths lies, Questioners would know better. 

And if at some point they captured a black ajah that could lie? If he's taken out 7 Aes Sedai odds are actually pretty good one of them was black.

 

 

[JJLXL]

All of that stuff you mention would only have emboldened the WC.  If Moiraine proved it by wrapping Valda in air, she'd be instantly peppered with arrows, along with the rest of the band. 

 

WC wouldn't let a known Aes Sedai go when they had such an advantage.  Also, she could provide valuable information when put to the question.  No, they wouldn't have let her go, to die peacefully elsewhere.  Especially not after the previous set up scene with burning one alive.  WC are sworn to destroy all shadow spawn, and they believe Aes Sedai are some of the worst.

[Beidomon]

In the books, do the Children not believe the Three Oaths are binding on Aes Sedai? I know they’re obviously suspicious of how Aes Sedai can bend the truth (as they should be), but do they flat out believe the Oaths are bunk? I don’t remember that.

 

It kinda matters, because there’s really no way to not answer “Are you Aes Sedai?” And the best possible explanation is that Valda didn’t ask it because he already knew she was but he didn’t feel prepared to confront her and Lan, which seems pretty weak but at least borderline plausible. 

[Kudzu]

23 minutes ago, JJLXL said:

All of that stuff you mention would only have emboldened the WC.  If Moiraine proved it by wrapping Valda in air, she'd be instantly peppered with arrows, along with the rest of the band. 

 

WC wouldn't let a known Aes Sedai go when they had such an advantage.  Also, she could provide valuable information when put to the question.  No, they wouldn't have let her go, to die peacefully elsewhere.  Especially not after the previous set up scene with burning one alive.  WC are sworn to destroy all shadow spawn, and they believe Aes Sedai are some of the worst.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions on how you believe people would behave which isn't backed up by anything that's in the books or the show.

 

There are multiple instances in the books where Whitecloaks don't go all out on known Aes Sedai, or even Shadowspawn for that matter.

 

Look, I agree if Valda's goal was simply to determine if she was Aes Sedai or not, with the intent of capturing her there and then if she was, he should have just asked from a distance. What I and others are trying to say is that there are plausible reasons why he may have chosen not go that way.

[Deadsy]

These can be answered pretty easily I think.

 

I highly doubt this is ever how the Questioners catch Aes Sedai - meeting them face to face when the Aes Sedai knows they're there, and is in a party other people other than her warder. They would not be so confrontational so as to ask whether she's Aes Sedai unless they were prepared to defeat her in that moment. He probably suspects she is Aes Sedai but wouldn't want her to know for sure that he thinks she is.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Deadsy

[JaimAybara]

4 hours ago, JJLXL said:

Yeah, I don't buy it.  White Cloaks are ruthless.  Questioners are borderline evil.  They had the upper hand by a fair margin.  I'm gonna go ahead and say it was a poorly written scene.

Not all Whitecloaks are evil, and I’m fairly certain the other dude was trying to get them moving along. There could be a split motivations in their ranks/ whitecloaks aren’t even particularly fond of questioners or their methods. 

[Skipp]

We have had several arguments in the past couple of weeks that are all very similar to this. 

 

"The Show is combing both halves of the source because the trailers haven't mention Saidin and Saidar specficially".

 

"The Show is removing Aiel veils because we saw that one screen still".

 

I think the show has earned a little trust that if they set something off they will pay it off at some point this season.

[JenniferL]

27 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

 

I think the show has earned a little trust that if they set something off they will pay it off at some point this season.

 

No! No truce with the Shadow! 
 

But yes, Wheel of Time fans are famous for being able to riff on the most insignificant details (and actually be right about it!) and I truly love that about this fandom. But I’m also really looking forward to having another episode so we can start fresh arguments over the weekend.

[Ralph]

Many of the Children did not believe this. They called the stories of the Three Oaths deliberate fabrications. They hadn’t lived in the White Tower. Galad didn’t like most Aes Sedai, and he certainly didn’t trust them, but he knew that the oaths did hold.

 

TOM ch24

[Theseus78]

7 hours ago, JJLXL said:

Why not ask "Are you Aes Sedai?", if there was any suspicion?  They admitted to the whitecloaks they had been around shadow spawn.  That's enough for them. 

 

Even if they don't believe the three oaths, they could still see how she would act if asked.  Also, White Cloaks, Questioners in particular, would have long proven the lie oath to be true during questioning of captured Aes Sedai.   Even if they outwardly call the oaths lies, Questioners would know better. 

Because asking straight out is the best way for Valda to get the sharp end of Lan's sword, and he knows it.  He cares far more about himself than even killing Aes Sedai.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was sitting in camp eating delicacies when his men captured the Aes Sedai that "he" killed.  You don't have 7 great serpent rings by being a reckless idiot.

Also, because the purpose of that scene was to show the viewer how the Aes Sedai get around their oaths.

Finally, because the pattern demanded it, and there are somewhere between 3 and 4 Ta'veren there to make sure that he didn't ask that. ?

[Daenelia]

1 hour ago, Theseus78 said:

[...]

Finally, because the pattern demanded it, and there are somewhere between 3 and 4 Ta'veren there to make sure that he didn't ask that. ?

OMG. That makes Ta'veren like ... plot armour? Not that I mind, because Ta'veren is infitinetly more interesting that plot armour (which is very contrived and can be boring). But we can basically blame anything we as fans deem inconsistent or wrong on 'well, the Pattern may have demanded it, and you know: Ta'Veren.' Which for me hopefully leads to fun storytelling and not 'it must all be very realistic and consistent!'

 

I just enjoyed the exchange. I have no way of knowing what goes on in any of their minds and we have not seen enough of the Whitecloaks to draw any conclusions - in the show. Yes, we operate with our book knowledge, but I tend to let that go when I am watching. It makes me enjoy it more.

 

The show-WC are an unknown. They do hunt Aes Sedai, they cut of their hands, one of them at least collects rings and is menacing and one seems more reasonable an a bit hypocritical. So how does this define the whole organisation? I don't know. I am eager to watch more episodes and find out.

 

Could this group have been confrontational with their numbers against the small traveling group? Sure. If the really suspected Aes Sedai and warder, they would have been in trouble, as pointed out in this thread. And if they'd been wrong they'd have slaughtered an innocent noble woman, her guard and 4 young wards. Ehm. I think the show WC made the right call here.

[Reader]

My main question about the White Cloaks would be about the moustaches.  Has that been discussed anywhere yet?

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

OMG. That makes Ta'veren like ... plot armour

The Pattern itself gives "plot armor" to those that need it, not just to ta'veren. It's fine because it's part of the world.

Edited November 25, 2021 by DaddyFinn