Feminism changes

[MasterAblar]

32 minutes ago, divica said:

But what people are trying to point out is that what as cut/changed are the scenes where men had important roles. The show kept the scenes where the women had important roles and even added more of these scenes.

 

And how is it obvious that rand is the dragon reborn? Egwene is clearly the main character of the younger cast, the more likeable, the one that is show to have access to the one power and is learning how to use it... Rand is her angry pseudo boyfriend that walks around with a sword that he doesn't know how to use and has nothing interesting or special about him in the show.

 

What important roles do women have so far other than: Moiraine, Nyneave Egwene (all major characters)?

 

Marin had like 2 lines. The red ajah served to set the stage (whether people care for the scene or not). Ila same as Marin. These are all such minute roles female or male. Literally the only thing I thought was silly was the circle of like 10 women taking out a trolloc since that had to be a conscious decision by the showrunner. But whatever it just serves to show the Two River women fight back exactly as they do in the Shadow Rising. Using that to extrapolate that the men don't? Where is the logic there?

 

You know what character is about to given more attention than in the books? Logain, a dude. A character far more important than any of those cited above

 

As for Rand, obviously as a book reader I'm biased but:

 

- lives separate from everyone else

- father is the only prominent parent, and is mysterously competent with a sword (notice Rand's suprise)

- Rand's dream is the one that is shown

- Rand stands up to Moiraine, not the other boys

- the camera spends more time on Rand alone than the others

- Rand's appearance is revealed in the 3rd episode to be atypical

- Rand smashes down a door he should never be able to

- during Thom's song about the Dragon Reborn the camera straight up focuses on Rand

 

All of these take seperately could be dismissed but all of them together (and possibly more I'm forgetting)? It paints a picture in my opinion.

 

What's Egwene got already? Likeability is totally subjective (seriously look up discussions about Egwene in the past on this very forum). So we're left with the budding ability to channel. A rather blatant red herring in my opinion, but that's just me.

Edited November 20, 2021 by MasterAblar

[divica]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

What important roles do women have so far other than: Moiraine, Nyneave Egwene (all major characters)?

The thing is that all those characters kept all their important scenes from the books and even had new scenes that weren't in the books.

On the other hand a lot of important scenes for male characters were cut. And we are talking about a lot of pages of character development for rand, tam, mat and perrin that simply aren't there and specially for rand make him bland.

 

For example, nobody even cares about tam's sword! It is just a thing that rand has and people don t pay atention. There aren't references to the void. No drama for rand in order to save tam. We just had the bare minimum develpment for the male characters while the female characters even had new content created...

 

17 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

As for Rand, obviously as a book reader I'm biased but:

 

- lives separate from everyone else

- father is the only prominent parent, and is mysterously competent with a sword (notice Rand's suprise)

- Rand's dream is the one that is shown

- Rand stands up to Moiraine, not the other boys

- the camera spends more time on Rand alone than the others

- Rand's appearance is revealed in the 3rd episode to be atypical

- Rand smashes down a door he should never be able to

- during Thom's song about the Dragon Reborn the camera straight up focuses on Rand

I agree that rand is the second main character of the younger cast, but it is too clear that egwene is the main character. This is a fact. 

In regards to his father having a sword and being good with it that is just another thing the show just ignores. He takes a sword, uses it for a few seconds and then nobody cares about that. Nobody asks questions about his skill or special sword, but we had time for nyn to have a sacred pond and use predator skills.

 

Also, as rand is the most important character around while tom is singing it is normal for the camera to focus more on him. But I agree that the third episode was the one that better portrayed rand. However, did that give him a better build up to be the dragon that egwene? No, not even close. There could be a million reasons for him to smash that door. Personaly, if you add all the clues rand is being build to be egwene's warden. even his appearance points to him being from a warrior race acording to the show...

 

29 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

What's Egwene got already? Likeability is totally subjective (seriously look up discussions about Egwene in the past on this very forum). So we're left with the budding ability to channel. A rather blatant red herring in my opinion, but that's just me.

I am talking about likeability acording to what the show is showing. And eg is much more likeable than rand that is being an ungrateful angry kid. 

[nicki_minajah]

5 hours ago, Katherine said:

That is a good point. 
 

I just wish they were doing elegant world building instead of hamfisting it. No nuance. 

 

2 hours ago, Dozer said:

Hopefully, they can realize that we were indeed "woke" in the 80s and need no growth on the greatest epic fantasy ever written.  The ideals represented in the true story will always stand the test of time because it shows that the great one story battle will always be won through common goals and true partnerships between both halves of the world.  

 

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

This is what comes of having an avowed feminist with an agenda running the show.  Many feared this is what would happen and they have been proven correct.  Was it right or wrong - that is for each individual with their own 'truth' to decide.

 

I included these three quotes because I think they, together, encapsulate an interesting conversation, and one I'd like to join!

 

Yes, as @DojoToad points out: a show-runner's world view will affect how the show is run. However, I think it's worth pointing out that "avowed feminist" can mean a lot of things. I'm an avowed feminist. But for me, being an "avowed feminist" is about (as the great Chimimanda Ngoze Adichie says so beautifully), "the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." That brand of feminism, as @Dozer writes, is already quite thematic in the books. (Though we know, of course, that no book can perfectly manifest our ideals.) So, any changes, IMO, need to really improve upon what's already there.  And as @Katherine points out, some are coming across as "ham-fisted." As many have pointed out in this thread, the changes are seemingly arbitrary--beyond 'flipping the gender script.'

 

What I'm getting at is this: I think any attempt to too closely mirror the reigning political sensibilities of the time (especially in fantasy adaptation) can sacrifice longevity and universality (whatever kind of universality exists).

 

In metaphor form: Adele's "Someone Like You" is primed to break the soul of anyone who hears it: across millennia and culture, there are countless who can relate to Adele's pain and longing. Soulja Boi's "Kiss Me Thru the Phone" (no shame--I love the song) is constrained in who it can impact, because it relates too closely to its audience's (the MySpace generation's/my 2006) reality. Jordan's books have that "Someone Like You" quality. Too many arbitrary changes,* and it becomes "Kiss Me Thru the Phone."

 

*Not saying we're at "too many" yet. Just noting that there is a line.

[Katherine]

Well I think nuance is importance and I love how EF set that up with the Women’s Circle and the Village Council. That made other cities… Like the city where the women or a knife at their throat and would stab their husband if he pissed them off… Can’t remember off the top of my head which city that was… It made that city seem more realistic in the setting. And it didn’t put me off because… Of course there was a city like that! And then you have conservative/traditional Cairhein (sp?) . 
 

I still think the Seafolk handled this gender dichotomy the best.

[nicki_minajah]

1 minute ago, Katherine said:

Like the city where the women or a knife at their throat and would stab their husband if he pissed them off… Can’t remember off the top of my head which city that was…

 Ebou Dar! ?

[Katherine]

Thanks! Couldn’t remember right that one or Tanchico 

[Calembel]

7 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I saw a bunch of fans responding negatively to Rand's "I moved over here to be alone" response to Egwene wanting to join him in his blankets as he was sleeping.   

 

 

Indeed and if the roles were reversed nobody would bat an eye and say that she deserves privacy, if that's what she wants. It gets tiresome.

[Deadsy]

I dunno... seems blatantly obvious to me they are setting things up for the kick ass male characters to prove everyone wrong. The Liandrin scene especially makes it blatant.

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, divica said:

The thing is that all those characters kept all their important scenes from the books and even had new scenes that weren't in the books.

On the other hand a lot of important scenes for male characters were cut. And we are talking about a lot of pages of character development for rand, tam, mat and perrin that simply aren't there and specially for rand make him bland.

 

Strictly speaking, Mat and Perrin had scenes added developping their backround with their family/wife. Thom is the main one who was shorted and I do regret the lack of interaction between him and Rand for instance but that can still come.

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

For example, nobody even cares about tam's sword! It is just a thing that rand has and people don t pay atention. There aren't references to the void. No drama for rand in order to save tam. We just had the bare minimum develpment for the male characters while the female characters even had new content created...

 

 

I agree that there is a whole lot cut where Rand is concerned, but the book is entirely from his pov until after Shadar Logoth. I don't believe that would work in the series even if they weren't trying to create a mystery around the Dragon Reborn. Which they are. So if you kept the sheer amount of focus the book has on Rand then you'd have a serious issue. I believe they can still get around to his interactions with Thom and Tam (through flashback) and Nyneave as well.

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

I agree that rand is the second main character of the younger cast, but it is too clear that egwene is the main character. This is a fact. 

In regards to his father having a sword and being good with it that is just another thing the show just ignores. He takes a sword, uses it for a few seconds and then nobody cares about that. Nobody asks questions about his skill or special sword, but we had time for nyn to have a sacred pond and use predator skills.

 

Also, as rand is the most important character around while tom is singing it is normal for the camera to focus more on him. But I agree that the third episode was the one that better portrayed rand. However, did that give him a better build up to be the dragon that egwene? No, not even close. There could be a million reasons for him to smash that door. Personaly, if you add all the clues rand is being build to be egwene's warden. even his appearance points to him being from a warrior race acording to the show...

 

 

Nyneave is a main character, Tam is not. It makes sense that the show would spend more time on her than on Tam. Now whether it did that well  or no is another question.

 

With regards to Rand and Egwene, I'd be curious to know who's had more screentime, and dialogue. I wouldn't be suprised if its very even. I think people who are genre savy can see it coming that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. People who aren't? Sure they might assume Egwene or at least not be certain.

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

I am talking about likeability acording to what the show is showing. And eg is much more likeable than rand that is being an ungrateful angry kid. 

 

 

Again likeability is subjective. You feel that Rand is ungrateful, I think he's relatable considering his father was just on the brink of death, his life has been turned upside down, and who has hopefully recieved very confusing information from his father (finger's crossed for a flashback).

 

Besides likeability is hardly a metric to gauge who is more important.

 

Right now I honestly don't believe they're trying to make anyone more prominent. Rand and Egwene perhaps slightly more than Mat and Perrin, but even then they've all had a clear focus on them at times.

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, Chefsb said:

They ruined the whole story, it's so bad it's not even the same tale. Absurd ideas are being forced in where the excellence of the writing was clearly not understood, it seems clear few understood it by how much people seem to accept it. I wonder if this comment will be censored like my last one, but at least I spoke true.

 

You know if you want to be kicked off the forums, the easier way is to just leave. 

[Starganderfish]

I’ve said it on a couple of other places but I actually feel that the feminist perspective and skewing things that way actually works in the WoT world. Men BROKE the world. Every time a man learns to channel he either goes mad and devastates half the countryside or tries to set himself up as a false Dragon and start a new World War. In a world where peiple

genuinely believe there is a permanent (albeit small) chance that almost any man will turn into a lightning wielding mad-man, that’s going to impact the concept of equality. Frankly, given the historical context, it’s kinda weird that things like Andor only ever having queens is seen as an exception rather than the rule. 
I’m personally less bothered by the way the show is pushing Egwene and Nynaeve more forward, except for the fact that I always found them to be the least interesting characters (Nynaeve especially) There’s way bigger issues with the show than that.

Also, Rafe being a self-avowed feminist, I’m still disturbed at them leaning so heavily into the trope of Perrin “fridging his wife”. That in and of itself should be a raising some eyebrows. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Starganderfish

[SinisterDeath]

20 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

You know if you want to be kicked off the forums, the easier way is to just leave. 

Dude asked me to so I complied. ? 

[Arthellion]

So my thoughts on this…it does go back to the limited episode list of 8.

 

That said…I think the disparity is actually a true visual representation that hammers things home. Women have the power…and men who have powered are to be feared (channelers/white cloaks) The books definitely had more nuance but with only 8 episodes it’s important imo to hammer home who holds the power in this world. 

[Deadsy]

9 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

So my thoughts on this…it does go back to the limited episode list of 8.

 

That said…I think the disparity is actually a true visual representation that hammers things home. Women have the power…and men who have powered are to be feared (channelers/white cloaks) The books definitely had more nuance but with only 8 episodes it’s important imo to hammer home who holds the power in this world. 

 

 

Ya, I think this is well stated. I could've done with more Tam and Bran but other than that have no problems with it. Liandrin being a total turd makes it obvious there will be a huge comeuppance.

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, TheMountain said:

Dana can be very skilled, I have no problem with that. I just think that the scene of her in a dress chasing two fully grown men across town with a bared sword came across as ridiculous and almost comical. Had the writers intended for the scene to be comical and leaned into it instead of being so self-serious, perhaps it could have worked in a "this crazy lady is chasing us waving a sword" Matrim Cauthon antics kind of way. As a serious scene (which would have echoed a similar scene in the books), what would have worked 10x better is some close quarters knife-play, capitalizing on her greater skill and playing to her strengths against Rand's and Mat's weaknesses.

 

It just wasn't believable... but as a fan of the show so far, I realize that not everything is going to be perfect.

what's not believable about that scene?

you think a girl wouldn't be able to kill two men with a sword? you don't need any kind of "skill" to hit somebody unarmed with a stick. if the stick is sharp, you also don't need all that much strenght to deal serious damage. nothing ever hints that she would be capable with a weapon. she was armed, and they weren't, and that's enough.

why would close quarters knife play work better? actually, that would require more skill; a knife is short enough that the opponent can parry by blocking your arm, can grab your wrist and disarm you; you have little reach, you must get close to hit and that exposes you. With a sword, you have a good meter of reach over your opponent. you hit, and they can't parry a sword with their arm. and why would a woman wielding a knife with skill be believable, but a woman using a sword would not?

 

or perhaps it's ridiculous that she's running? that dress seemed large enough to allow movement. and the boys are tired and malnourished from many days alone on the wilderness.

 

i am amazed that someone could see an armed woman as not a threat

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Katherine said:

Well I think nuance is importance and I love how EF set that up with the Women’s Circle and the Village Council.

Are you speaking about the books, because there was no village council in the TV show...

[Lurker_Fan]

3 hours ago, divica said:

But what people are trying to point out is that what as cut/changed are the scenes where men had important roles. The show kept the scenes where the women had important roles and even added more of these scenes.

 

And how is it obvious that rand is the dragon reborn? Egwene is clearly the main character of the younger cast, the more likeable, the one that is show to have access to the one power and is learning how to use it... Rand is her angry pseudo boyfriend that walks around with a sword that he doesn't know how to use and has nothing interesting or special about him in the show.

Flicker.

 

Rand becomes Egwene’s Gawyn

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

What important roles do women have so far other than: Moiraine, Nyneave Egwene (all major characters)?

 

Marin had like 2 lines. The red ajah served to set the stage (whether people care for the scene or not). Ila same as Marin. These are all such minute roles female or male. Literally the only thing I thought was silly was the circle of like 10 women taking out a trolloc since that had to be a conscious decision by the showrunner. But whatever it just serves to show the Two River women fight back exactly as they do in the Shadow Rising. Using that to extrapolate that the men don't? Where is the logic there?

 

Yes, Marin only had a few lines, as did Ila, Dana had quite a bit more.  But if they are such minor characters (and they are) why make the change?  Look at them as a group:  Marin usurps Bran, Ila replaces Raen, and Dana takes over for Howal Gode.  I see a pattern.  They are all fairly minor, but they all go the same direction and I imagine there are more to come.  We shall see.  Episode 4 is on the way.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes, Marin only had a few lines, as did Ila, Dana had quite a bit more.  But if they are such minor characters (and they are) why make the change?  Look at them as a group:  Marin usurps Bran, Ila replaces Raen, and Dana takes over for Howal Gode.  I see a pattern.  They are all fairly minor, but they all go the same direction and I imagine there are more to come.  We shall see.  Episode 4 is on the way.

 

I don't think Marin usurped Bran, Bran simply had very little presence, and Marin basically kept the tiny bit she had. Raen slightly moreso but he actually speaks the first lines for what its worth so he might still be the seeker. And there's more to come from the tinkers anyway.

 

Dana to me is just an amalgamation of all the darkfriends Rand and Mat encounter, male and female.

 

And again if we're really trying to keep tally (for some reason...) Logain is coming right up.

[flinn]

49 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

what's not believable about that scene?

you think a girl wouldn't be able to kill two men with a sword? you don't need any kind of "skill" to hit somebody unarmed with a stick. if the stick is sharp, you also don't need all that much strenght to deal serious damage. nothing ever hints that she would be capable with a weapon. she was armed, and they weren't, and that's enough.

why would close quarters knife play work better? actually, that would require more skill; a knife is short enough that the opponent can parry by blocking your arm, can grab your wrist and disarm you; you have little reach, you must get close to hit and that exposes you. With a sword, you have a good meter of reach over your opponent. you hit, and they can't parry a sword with their arm. and why would a woman wielding a knife with skill be believable, but a woman using a sword would not?

 

or perhaps it's ridiculous that she's running? that dress seemed large enough to allow movement. and the boys are tired and malnourished from many days alone on the wilderness.

 

i am amazed that someone could see an armed woman as not a threat

 Not only that. Dana has lived in that town all of her life and is known by everyone. If someone did notice her chasing two strangers from her tavern with a sword, they would most likely immediately take her side and assume the two strangers had done something to deserve it.

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't think Marin usurped Bran, Bran simply had very little presence, and Marin basically kept the tiny bit she had. Raen slightly moreso but he actually speaks the first lines for what its worth so he might still be the seeker. And there's more to come from the tinkers anyway.

 

Dana to me is just an amalgamation of all the darkfriends Rand and Mat encounter, male and female.

 

And again if we're really trying to keep tally (for some reason...) Logain is coming right up.

When I said Marin usurped Bran, I meant that Rafe did.  The actors are all doing what the 17 producers tell them to do.

[Beidomon]

I can’t believe we’re this deep into a thread about the “feminism” in the show and nobody has mentioned the opening credits yet. I know it’s easy to get distracted by the catchy music (LOLZ bleh) but it’s like entirely centered on the aes sedai, right? How’s that work? 

[flinn]

 Overall I am not bothered by the feminism. One aspect that does really bother me is Nynaeve sneaking up to Lan to the point of putting a knife to his throat. In the books she managed to sneak up to listening distance to hide behind a tree. That was so amazing that Lan twitched an eyebrow in response. Meaning any normal person would have fallen into a dead faint. To make Nynaeve look better, I feel like they lessened Lan. Lan has spent every day of his life training. Every day of his life, from the time he was big enough to walk, he was training. While clearly Nynaeve has had tracking training, and she apparently excels at it, it is not something she does every day of her life. Lan is legitimately one of the greatest warriors in fantasy, period. Not only has he trained to be one of the greatest, but with the bond he has a boost. The warders are supposed to be the best of the best and Lan is head and shoulders better than the 2nd best warder, but a villager who had some training in tracking was able to put a knife to his throat. Seriously, this dude goes camping in the blight when he has vacation time. Throw in a few other "changes" to Lan and he is not the Lan from the books, and considering how great he was in the books, that is a disservice.

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

The actors are all doing what the 17 producers tell them to do.

Check that thread about the amount of producers. 17 is nothing spectacular..

[10g1k]

Depends on one's definition of feminism, I guess.  In TWOT, men and women across the entire range of nations have very different and separate roles.  In some cases the men have more power and influence; in other cases, the women (obviously) have more power and influence.  There is no equality or tokenistic quota-filling representation.

 

As with the casting, the show's creators have opted to seek approval points from the twitter cultists rather than stick close to the source material.