How did the show hold up for you?

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Moiraine is now the main character of the story

So? What's wrong with that? Why is introducing the audience to the protagonists through Moiraine a bad choice?

 

9 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Nynaeve is (1) a potential dragon, (2) master tracker, and (3) comes out on top of every interaction she's in. 

(1) Again, so? Moiraine (wrongly) believes that a woman can be a dragon? What does that matter? (2) as she was in the books; (3) no she doesn't. She's unceremoniously dragged away by a Trolloc. Lan bests her easily and ties her to a tree.

 

11 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Nynaeve is adept at hand to hand combat now, for some reason.

No she isn't. She doesn't ever engage in 'hand to hand combat' - she attacks a Trolloc from stealth and then later defends herself with a knife when a man stumbles toward her.

 

13 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Egwene is now (1) as powerful as Logain and (2) a member of the Women's Circle (the ruling body of her community!) when the series begins. 

(1) we don't know this and what does it matter really since Egwene is an insanely powerful channeler? (2) the Women's Circle is never established as a 'ruling body' in the show and anyway, so what?

 

14 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Egwene is maturely dealing with the end of her and Rand's relationship meanwhile he acts like a child. 

Which is ... well, on brand for both characters.

 

14 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

The leader of the Tinkers is now a woman for no reason other than the writers didn't want it to be a man. 

So?

 

15 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Rand is a side character

No he isn't. He's a member of an ensemble cast.

 

15 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Tam's influence on Rand has been greatly diminished 

No it hasn't. We just haven't seen it all yet.

 

16 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Perrin is a wife murderer

He is guilty of negligent homicide at best, but so?

 

16 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Mat is a thief

So?

 

16 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Abel Cauthon is a drunk abuser

I didn't see him being abusive. He was drunk and supposedly carousing with other women. And he behaved like a coward. But, anyway, so? (Also worth noting that Mat's mom was a drunk and verbally abusive toward her young daughters. But that might get in the way of your theory)

 

18 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Master Luhan isn't even there

So?

 

18 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Thom can barely sing or play an instrument

I loved Thom's song. And we've only seen him in action once. So there's no reason to assue his character is static.

 

19 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Character development for males = Dark past. Mistakes. Flaws. Inner demons. 

Character development for females = Good at everything. Super powerful. Just, like, so good and great. So great. Literally the best. 

Character development for EF5 is exactly the same as it was in the books at this point (Mat and Perrin being darker). Rand - still just a shepherd who loved home and his best girl; Mat still a jokey gambler who got poisoned by a cursed dagger; Perrin still a gentle giant worried about hurting others.

[orangeirwin]

There is just too much change, for change sake. I understand things need to be left out/condensed but the omissions/changes thus far have left me cringing numerous times each episode.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

9 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But it is not the ruling body in the show. Did you read my responses earlier? And we don't know if she is as powerful as Logain, and I asked if you have canon source that she is weaker in the books. 

In episode 4, Moiraine says she she doesn't know if Logain is as strong as Egwene. In the books, Egwene is extremely strong among women, but there's still a dozen named female characters who are stronger than her. Keep in mind that men are more powerful than women in the books, and only 3 or 4 men are said to be stronger than Logain. 

 

11 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Like the books. Did you like Egwene in the books? 

Good point haha Egwene is the worst character in the books precisely because she's already pretty flawless (especially once you get to book 4). The show has taken this aspect of her and cranked it up to 11. I guess if you like Egwene, that's a good thing. 

 

12 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I have yet to see this

Episode 1. Mat steals a bracelet and it's implied that this is something he does a lot in order to pay off his dad's debts. 

 

13 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Not at all

Agree to disagree. Granted, I'm only on episode 4. Maybe 5 and 6 let Rand reminisce about his dad. As it stands now, I've heard more about Laila, a pointless character who no one cares about, that Rand's father. 

 

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Not really

Give me another reason. 

 

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Really? Lan killed at least twenty Trollocs in Ep1. She has killed one. Perrin has killed one Trolloc and one wife. Rand has killed one. Egwene has injured one WC.

Nynaeve fights a Trolloc in episode 1 and wins. She kills one in episode 2 (3?) and then in episode 4 she kills a few dudes with a knife when Logain's army attacks. My point is that book Nynaeve does none of this. It's a significant upgrade. 

 

16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Like the books

True. This is generally the way it's handled. But I think there's a difference between Perrin being afraid of violence because he killed some whitecloaks who were attacking him and being afraid because he killed his wife/unborn child. 

 

19 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Name one woman who is more powerful. I haven't seen any. I assume you mean Nynaeve but I don't see that she is more powerful

Dude, we've been through this. Nearly every female character has received some kind of upgrade whether it be in significance to the plot, power level, skills and abilities added or anything else you can think of. I literally just made you a list. 

 

20 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Only the DR is not like the books ?

30 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

A change made with the specific purpose of leveling up Nynaeve and Egwene's significance in the story. 

 

But at this point we're going in circles. I can only show you a rock and have you tell me it's a fish no many times. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

@Elder_Haman You keep saying "So?" as if I haven't just shown you the evidence. Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? Send me a picture of your bus bench ad. I need proof. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

@Elder_Haman You keep saying "So?" as if I haven't just shown you the evidence. Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? Send me a picture of your bus bench ad. I need proof. 

I'm not asking for the evidence. I'm asking for the point. Why am I supposed to care about those things?

[king of nowhere]

it's curious that this thread, started as a poll, became a refuge of those who didn't like the show. everywhere else i keep reading people like "i was uncertain at first, but now I'm won". Data on audience is good. new reviews are more positive than old reviews.

but here, the votes for "hate it" keep growing. this thread started at over 60% like or love. now that's down to 40. i'd worry for the future of the show, except that every other piece of data available goes in the other way.

it's probably a sign for how humans tend to split up in like-minded groups.

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

it's curious that this thread, started as a poll, became a refuge of those who didn't like the show. everywhere else i keep reading people like "i was uncertain at first, but now I'm won". Data on audience is good. new reviews are more positive than old reviews.

but here, the votes for "hate it" keep growing. this thread started at over 60% like or love. now that's down to 40. i'd worry for the future of the show, except that every other piece of data available goes in the other way.

it's probably a sign for how humans tend to split up in like-minded groups.

It's also a reflection of the fact that the poll is static. There's no way to capture the people whose opinion has improved.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm not asking for the evidence. I'm asking for the point. Why am I supposed to care about those things?

My point is that all these changes were pointless. The rationale behind them is dubious at best, vindictive at worst, and I think that rationale matters. You obviously do not. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

My point is that all these changes were pointless. The rationale behind them is dubious at best, vindictive at worst, and I think that rationale matters. You obviously do not. 

You're assuming the rationale is something. But your evidence doesn't prove your thesis. I am not bothered by the changes. Because I am seeing the tv show as a tv show and the books as the books. They are two separate and distinct things trying to tell the same basic story in two different ways.

 

The "evidence" you point to doesn't make the point you want it to. The girls aren't overpowered. The men aren't emasculated. They are portraying the fact that society in the Third Age is female forward. That's it.

[JaimAybara]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

No they haven't.

They've put female characters forward. That's all. No male characters have been "diminished" and none of the female characters are "beyond reproach". The show has presented viewers with a world where females occupy positions of power. That's it. 

 

I agree that the women aren’t beyond reproach, but rather are all faithfully adapted or close to it and then improved on in areas. I do however think there are tons of examples where men are diminished, have had their thunder stolen, or have been given atrocious backstory. Plus, diminish by definition means “made to seem less impressive.” I don’t know a more apt description. 

 

[Chivalry]

2 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

Agreed, there are two main camps here with some small villages in between. I bet it will still be a perpetual stalemate by the time the end draws near.

 

Do you feel that what is posted here on DM will have any affect on the show's future? Do the money handlers and pattern weavers at Amazon look at DM and turn the wheel based on negative comments? I honestly don't know that answer, which is why I'm asking. 

I have to assume that at least some members of the WOT team peruse message boards and social media to gauge support for the show. And although I've enjoyed the show and will continue to watch, I've also been frustrated with a number of the critiques others have raised.

 

On the one hand, I'm glad the viewership is high, and I'm encouraged that reviews seem to be generally positive. I'd like to see the show continue.

 

But I'm also grateful that people are voicing their frustrations with the adaptation, because the show is far from perfect and needs to improve to achieve the type of recognition the wonderful source material deserves. I sincerely hope that whatever members of the WOT team lurking on this site take the criticism to heart. 
 

[Kudzu]

There are examples of women being "diminished"  and men being awesome if we want to be as ridiculous as some of the other examples.

 

Nynaeve's backstory is rougher in the show than it is in the books.

Moiraine gets wounded by a Trolloc and nearly dies. (imagine if that was Lan, the outcry about the nerfing would be never ending)

I'd argue Egwene mopes just as much as Rand about their relationship.

Dana reveals herself unnecessarily, just because Rand didn't want to kiss her. (not a main character I know, but is an example of a woman not being very smart)

 

Rand doesn't piss himself and run when the Trolloc breaks in and instead fights back (he runs in the book)

Perrin also fights bravely (pretty sure he didn't kill a Trolloc on Winternight in the book)

Mat doesn't bat an eyelid before going out looking for his sisters

 

[Chivalry]

8 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

There are examples of women being "diminished"  and men being awesome if we want to be as ridiculous as some of the other examples.

 

Nynaeve's backstory is rougher in the show than it is in the books.

Moiraine gets wounded by a Trolloc and nearly dies. (imagine if that was Lan, the outcry about the nerfing would be never ending)

I'd argue Egwene mopes just as much as Rand about their relationship.

Dana reveals herself unnecessarily, just because Rand didn't want to kiss her. (not a main character I know, but is an example of a woman not being very smart)

 

Rand doesn't piss himself and run when the Trolloc breaks in and instead fights back (he runs in the book)

Perrin also fights bravely (pretty sure he didn't kill a Trolloc on Winternight in the book)

Mat doesn't bat an eyelid before going out looking for his sisters

 

I'd like to see a bit more competence from the male protagonists, but these are all solid points. 

 

One thing RJ did very well in the books is allow both male and female characters to shine (and both behaved foolishly, depending on circumstances). Women often "mirrored" men in achievements, and vice versa (Rand learns to travel, female AS travel, Egwene masters TAR, Perrin masters the wolf dream, etc.). Sometimes it became predicable and overly repetitive (even boring), but I appreciated that RJ seemed to be driving home the lesson that men and women needed to take a collaborative role in the battle, or the Dark One wins.

[Kudzu]

1 minute ago, Chivalry said:

I'd like to see a bit more competence from the male protagonists, but these are all solid points. 

 

Fair enough and I'm sure it's coming. I'd argue the men (the Two Rivers men at least) hadn't done anything in the book up to this point that was very impressive. They had certainly done plenty of stupid stuff. Mouthing off about Trolloc's to strangers, baiting Whitecloaks, sneaking off in Shadar Logoth, climbing and then falling off palace walls.

 

6 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

One thing RJ did very well in the books is allow both male and female characters to shine (and both behaved foolishly, depending on circumstances). Women often "mirrored" men in achievements, and vice versa (Rand learns to travel, female AS travel, Egwene masters TAR, Perrin masters the wolf dream, etc.). Sometimes it became predicable and overly repetitive (even boring), but I appreciated that RJ seemed to be driving home the lesson that men and women needed to take a collaborative role in the battle, or the Dark One wins.

 

Agree and a theory I've had since before the show even started was that they were going to lean heavily into female power early on as a way of demonstrating the importance of balance. Rafe has talked balance being one of the key themes, I think we'll see it.

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

As one of the chief N&Ns on this forum, I've had to jettison some emotions out of my skull in order to keep my ship afloat and refrain from slugging myself repeatedly in the genitalia.

 

I've had to resolve myself of the following, but not necessarily in order:

 

1) The show is not the books and the books are not the show - they are two separate beings and should be treated as such or you will continue to take up arms against differentiating opinions. Lesson: never cross the streams.

 

2) The books allow the reader more freedoms in imagination while the show allows less (due to both visual representation as well as outside interpretation). 

 

2a) I loved Darrell Sweet's cover art even though it had some inaccuracies. The eBook cover art was awesome too but the generic Wheel art being used as a mass market paperback stop gap is garbage until they release Amazon WoT cover art... but I won't talk about that.

 

3) The show cannot be a 1:1 translation given big Amazon's penchant for laying down some heavy handed restrictions. Even if you lift all the characters internal dialogue and most of the repetitious historical references, you still have to portray atleast six, maybe seven novels worth of storyline to screen. I wouldn't mind that but the current industry most certainly would.

 

4) Injesting a moderate amount of booze before every episode viewing can whittle down the sharp edge of the system shock. 

 

5) Immediately rewatching the WoT: Origins after each mainline episode has helped me with a softer landing, like placing a down pillow on an open chest wound instead of a brillo pad or a belt sander.

 

6) It's almost the year 2022, no longer 1990 even though 1986 was the best year of my life. Society has changed, for better or for worse... or both. So having typed that - the constant here is that art imitates life.

 

7) Only you can create the perfect WoT show adaptation, given there are no resource constraints. No one else can ever come close. Think about that.

 

? RIP old Cenn Buie, never had a chance.

 

9) When someone re-creates from an original source, there will always be division amongst the fans. Even Robert Jordan's The Eye of the World was a partial re-creation. DM is just one of many battlefields where the difference of opinions will forever duke it out.

 

10) Posts in this forum like "Wow, just Wow!" without any constructive references are no different than posts like "The show is total garbage!" (also without constructive references).

 

11) Lastly, us N&Ns shouldn't be surprised much less upset at what has happened because we can simply fall back to the books. Until they start re-writting and publishing changes to the books (I will slit my own throat) then we can just pull on our braids and blow out our moustaches. The trick is not to visualize the cast faces while you re-read the novels... assuming your desire is to be free and clear.

 

12) The end.

 

Agree with everything you said except I hate the Sweet art even more

 

Re 10, have not seen very many tbh, def far fewer than on other wot fora

 

What happened to Cenn Buie? He was cast, then charged to just an Old Man. Part of reducing the first episode script? 

[Ralph]

6 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

In episode 4, Moiraine says she she doesn't know if Logain is as strong as Egwene. In the books, Egwene is extremely strong among women, but there's still a dozen named female characters who are stronger than her. Keep in mind that men are more powerful than women in the books, and only 3 or 4 men are said to be stronger than Logain. 

She doesn't know, exactly

6 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Good point haha Egwene is the worst character in the books precisely because she's already pretty flawless (especially once you get to book 4). The show has taken this aspect of her and cranked it up to 11. I guess if you like Egwene, that's a good thing. 

My point is I haven't seen it cranked up any. Do you mean escaping from the WC? I can't think of anything else

6 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Episode 1. Mat steals a bracelet and it's implied that this is something he does a lot in order to pay off his dad's debts. 

Have discussed before, I don't think that is what happened

6 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Agree to disagree. Granted, I'm only on episode 4. Maybe 5 and 6 let Rand reminisce about his dad. As it stands now, I've heard more about Laila, a pointless character who no one cares about, that Rand's father. 

He hasn't spoken much. And hadn't in the books. I'm sure it is coming

6 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Give me another reason. 

 

Nynaeve fights a Trolloc in episode 1 and wins. She kills one in episode 2 (3?) and then in episode 4 she kills a few dudes with a knife when Logain's army attacks. My point is that book Nynaeve does none of this. It's a significant upgrade. 

She and Eg fight in ep1 and drive it off. They don't kill it I believe. She is overpowered by a guy from Logains army until Lan saves hrr

6 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

 

But at this point we're going in circles. I can only show you a fish and tell you it's a rock so many times. 

Fixed that for ya ?

 

There are five or six posters who keep making this point, and I just don't see it. And I'd like to know, as I've asked before, what is it that makes them able to notice the pattern that I don't. 

 

Are they just better at noticing such things, am I just more likely to judge the show runners well, or are those people the ones who "just knew people like that would do this"? 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Dead Warder said:

 

Old Cenn the Thatcher bit the dust in Episode 1 by either a Trolloc slash to the gut or by a heart attack, I can't see where/when he went down but he was the old white haired fella that Nynaeve and Egwene comforted during the raid. 

 

Maybe he just ran out of Kaopectate or choked on a tin of cherry Sucrets. Regardless, we never got to see him complaining about the Congars/Coplins or shaking a fist at the Women's Circle.

 

They originally named him in the casting announcement, but he is not named in the xrays or credits I believe

 

That's why I'm pretty sure he was in the original script, and taken out

 

In general they've taken out a lot of the ott humour, which was always a feature of wot. I sometimes found it a bit jarring and sometimes not. I don't know what others felt about it

Edited December 14, 2021 by Ralph

[notpropaganda73]

12 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Lan disobeying Moiraine and entering Shadar Logoth when in the books it was her idea. Show portrays it as Lan's mistake. 

 

I can't be bothered going through your points because they've been covered over and over on this forum, but just in terms of this, I'm re-reading EotW and this isn't true. The idea still comes from Lan in the books, the difference is that Moiraine is awake and they are being chased. She refuses his idea immediately initially and it's only as the amount of Trollocs and Fades chasing them becomes almost overwhelming and she channels a huge amount (I think via her angreal) that exhausts her, that she concedes that they will go there. But it was Lan's idea. 

 

I agree that I didn't like the show portraying it the way it did, but it was a function of giving Moiraine that wound, which acted to give Nynaeve and Lan more alone time to develop that relationship - which overall I'm ok with. 

[notpropaganda73]

One other thing I'd like to address that constantly comes up as a criticism of the show: Tam vs. the Trolloc. 

 

This is actually something I think the show was 100% trying to to achieve exactly what everyone seems to complain about (that he is a blademaster), but clearly they failed in showing it because so many people are annoyed by that scene. The reason I say this is because after the initial struggle and when Tam eventually gets his sword, the camera instantly zooms in on the heron (cheesily so, imo), so they are trying to say "Something is special about this sword!". After that, they show lots of quick cuts of Tam expertly slashing at the Trolloc and doing damage. 

 

I think they were trying to show that Tam is incredibly skilled with this special sword, that it's all supposed to be something we look out for, but then it's just a function of this massive beast being at such close quarters that he can't finish the job and gets knocked to the wall before the Trolloc injures him. 

 

I can understand people being annoyed at this scene (and I still think they should have had another Trolloc or two so that Tam just got overwhelmed by the sheer number of huge Trollocs in close quarters), but I don't think this is evidence of the show having some conspiratorial agenda - which seems to be where most of the criticisms stem from. I think it's just the show failing to do something that they wanted to do. And that's ok. It's frustrating, but it's ok. 

 

Edit: And just to put in anecdotally about a non-book reader, my partner thought Tam was a badass but that the Trolloc was just incredibly strong/wild to ignore the cuts from Tam *shrug* 

Edited December 14, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[king of nowhere]

9 hours ago, Kudzu said:

There are examples of women being "diminished"  and men being awesome if we want to be as ridiculous as some of the other examples.

 

Nynaeve's backstory is rougher in the show than it is in the books.

Moiraine gets wounded by a Trolloc and nearly dies. (imagine if that was Lan, the outcry about the nerfing would be never ending)

I'd argue Egwene mopes just as much as Rand about their relationship.

Dana reveals herself unnecessarily, just because Rand didn't want to kiss her. (not a main character I know, but is an example of a woman not being very smart)

 

Rand doesn't piss himself and run when the Trolloc breaks in and instead fights back (he runs in the book)

Perrin also fights bravely (pretty sure he didn't kill a Trolloc on Winternight in the book)

Mat doesn't bat an eyelid before going out looking for his sisters

 

you're forgetting nynaeve actually trying to stab lan.

i'm surprised nobody mentioned it. perhaps because it was only 2 seconds, it was very easy to just shrug it off aand pretend it never happened (it's what i did, actually).

 

but seriously, nynaeve, trying to kill someone in cold blood? that's terrible. If I could change one thing about the show, i'd excise those two seconds and have her put down the knife willingly.

[Apoc81]

Have they just cut Elaine from the story?

 

Every episode that passes is getting worse than the last.

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Apoc81 said:

Have they just cut Elaine from the story?

 

Every episode that passes is getting worse than the last.

Don't pay much attention to casting announcements, or just trollin'?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7462410/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm7969428/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t73
 

[Apoc81]

14 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Don't pay much attention to casting announcements, or just trollin'?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7462410/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm7969428/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t73
 

I don't pay attention to casting announcements at all. Im a partner in a law firm, keeping up with Judkins isn't a priority.

 

And again, we should have met her already.

[Masha]

13 hours ago, Ralph said:

Agree with everything you said except I hate the Sweet art even more

 

Re 10, have not seen very many tbh, def far fewer than on other wot fora

 

What happened to Cenn Buie? He was cast, then charged to just an Old Man. Part of reducing the first episode script? 

Most likely. I heard that Rafe originally plotted 2 hr pilot and 10 more episodes, Amazon paid for 8. So a lot got cut.

[Apoc81]

Wait, so Elayne is a redhead?

 

Like, we just heard loial tell rand he must be aiel because of his hair, but now Elayne is is a redhead?

 

Its nit a huge deal, but be consistent.