WoT Premier - Read At Your Own Risk!

[Agitel]

9 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

It’s difficult to set that stupidity aside. I’m going to try. I want to enjoy the show. But damn this move above all others really crossed the line for me. We don’t even know at this point that the show is going to delve into Saidin / Saidar, do we?

 

In a recent interview, Rafe and Rosamund both mention the One Power is divided into saidin and saidar, and that the way men and women approach the One Power are too different that one can't teach the other. There's also an extras short that will be available titled "Saidar, Saidin, Stone".

 

Edit: https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110544-interviews-and-news-articles/?do=findComment&comment=3991093

Edited November 17, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

This has been discussed to death in other topics

[Elder_Haman]

24 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

The issue is how long they plan to keep this “mystery” going. Because the longer they plan to draw out the reveal, the more they have to change.

I can tell you exactly how long. Please don't click if you don't want to be spoiled.

 

Spoiler

Rand will be revealed as the Dragon Reborn in episode 7 of S1.

 

[Elder_Haman]

17 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

We don’t even know at this point that the show is going to delve into Saidin / Saidar, do we?

Yes. We assuredly do. One of the animated shorts talks about both halves of the power. And some of the actors have referred to saidin by name. Rosamund gave an interview where she talked about women not being able to teach men. It's there.

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, RextheDog said:

 

isnt it becuase she would be too old.

 

im sure the book explains this, as in, some are too old to help. its just illustrating this, and giving Nyn further depth for her distrust of the AS

 

 

Is it illustrating it, if Nynaeve is saying it’s because she was poor and had poor clothes? I think it’s bad writing unless the Aes Sedai misled the wisdom and made her think it was because she was poor.  They could have written it better so it doesn’t sound asinine when we find out Siuan’s background and how they’re desparate for channelers. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Deadsy

[Agitel]

Just now, Deadsy said:

 

 

Is it illustrating it, if Nynaeve is saying it’s because she was poor and had poor clothes? I think it’s bad writing unless the Aes Sedai misled the wisdom and made her think it was because she was poor. 

 

I'm interested to see more there. Moiraine doesn't comment on Nynaeve's story. Nynaeve's mentor may also have misjudged the reason, or came up with a bitter story to cover the reason she was rejected. Or it might be just what it sounds like.

[themann1086]

1 minute ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Is it illustrating it, if Nynaeve is saying it’s because she was poor and had poor clothes? I think it’s bad writing unless the Aes Sedai misled the wisdom and made her think it was because she was poor. 

Maybe! This is the only solo conversation the two have had that we've seen. Maybe future conversations will inform us one way or the other.

[TheMountain]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

Why does the DR “have” to wield saidin and be male? Jordan didn’t “have” to do anything, but it makes for a richer conflict and better story - which is why Jordan wrote it that way. The DR is by necessity going to have to wield the power tainted by the actions of the last Dragon - risking madness. The Red Ajah are hunting down men who can channel because it’s important, but it’s also crazy because they risk gentling the DR. That risk is less, and less crazy, if the DR can be a woman. It potentially even makes sense in a way - “even if we kill the male DR, we’ll just keep doing it until the Pattern spins us out a girl!” Not to mention the fact that the White Tower probably would have collapsed any number of times due to female Aes Sedai claiming to be the DR.

 

It’s difficult to set that stupidity aside. I’m going to try. I want to enjoy the show. But damn this move above all others really crossed the line for me. We don’t even know at this point that the show is going to delve into Saidin / Saidar, do we?

I completely agree with you that it's a stupid change and falls apart once you consider the implications. After watching the first two episodes though, it wasn't as in-my-face as I thought it was going to be, and I was able to enjoy watching without being reminded too much of it. Hopefully this "mystery" doesn't last too long and it just becomes a "minor" plot hole later on.

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I completely agree with you that it's a stupid change and falls apart once you consider the implications. After watching the first two episodes though, it wasn't as in-my-face as I thought it was going to be, and I was able to enjoy watching without being reminded too much of it. Hopefully this "mystery" doesn't last too long and it just becomes a "minor" plot hole later on.

 

I don't like the change. But I really think it'll have minimal impact on the plot arcs and character arcs. It'll have a significant impact on the world-building and background lore.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Agitel

[TheMountain]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I don't like the change. But I really think it'll have minimal impact on the plot arcs and character arcs. It'll have a significant impact on the world-building and background lore.

Who knows, maybe they'll completely retcon it and everyone in-world will assume that the DR is always male, and Moraine just wanted to be sure.

[RextheDog]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

Why does the DR “have” to wield saidin and be male? Jordan didn’t “have” to do anything, but it makes for a richer conflict and better story - which is why Jordan wrote it that way. The DR is by necessity going to have to wield the power tainted by the actions of the last Dragon - risking madness. The Red Ajah are hunting down men who can channel because it’s important, but it’s also crazy because they risk gentling the DR. That risk is less, and less crazy, if the DR can be a woman. It potentially even makes sense in a way - “even if we kill the male DR, we’ll just keep doing it until the Pattern spins us out a girl!” Not to mention the fact that the White Tower probably would have collapsed any number of times due to female Aes Sedai claiming to be the DR.

 

It’s difficult to set that stupidity aside. I’m going to try. I want to enjoy the show. But damn this move above all others really crossed the line for me. We don’t even know at this point that the show is going to delve into Saidin / Saidar, do we?

 

 

this basically equates to;

 

'because Jordan wrote it that way'

 

which i can respect as an opinion, be great if the show was exactly the same as the books....

 

less so much braid tugging, bathing, subserviant power weilding slaves, and especially less Faile, less Faile and the shaido, less windfinders....

 

all the above i wouldnt want to see CUT from the show, but i wouldnt want them to dwell on in so much detail as RJ did.

 

so i suppose im onboard with a few changes...

 

PS, the Red Ajah would still hunt down any Male chanellers for obvious reasons....even if thats too much of a stretch , it could easily be interpreted as a human weakness...we know WOT universe has some incorrect beliefs.

 

i suppose what im trying to do is to play down the change....just becuase i want to be onboard with the show.

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

I don't like the change. But I really think it'll have minimal impact on the plot arcs and character arcs. It'll have a significant impact on the world-building and background lore.

 

It will have almost no impact on world-building or background lore, and require no ret-conning. I think the only difference will be that everyone is scared that there is another male false dragon and then that there is a real male dragon, and maybe wish it had been a woman.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Deadsy

[RextheDog]

1 hour ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Is it illustrating it, if Nynaeve is saying it’s because she was poor and had poor clothes? I think it’s bad writing unless the Aes Sedai misled the wisdom and made her think it was because she was poor.  They could have written it better so it doesn’t sound asinine when we find out Siuan’s background and how they’re desparate for channelers. 

 

agree it seems clunky.

 

to clarify though, i should have suggested it COULD illustrate this if eloborated on, explained to Nyn later in the show (through dialogue or direct action) that the Wisdom wasnt turned away becuase she was pour, but rather blah blah blah

 

Moraine explains it to Nyn in part in the book when she explains the Nyn is lucky she learnt to control it, as it kills quite a few who dont get the correct training.

 

in the meantime, its fueling Nyns basic instinct the AS are not to be trusted....

 

 

hopefully im right and its setting up her story arc

 

 

 

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, RextheDog said:

agree it seems clunky.

 

to clarify though, i should have suggested it COULD illustrate this if eloborated on, explained to Nyn later in the show (through dialogue or direct action) that the Wisdom wasnt turned away becuase she was pour, but rather blah blah blah

 

Moraine explains it to Nyn in part in the book when she explains the Nyn is lucky she learnt to control it, as it kills quite a few who dont get the correct training.

 

in the meantime, its fueling Nyns basic instinct the AS are not to be trusted....

 

 

hopefully im right and its setting up her story arc

 

 

Yes I hope so. In fact maybe Siuan is how she finds out she was wrong.

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

It will have almost no impact on world-building or background lore, and require no ret-conning. I think the only difference will be that everyone is scared that there is another male false dragon and then that there is a real male dragon, and maybe wish it had been a woman.

 

Rafe has said his world will have had false female dragons and he'll have to accommodate for that and more in how he adapts the world history.

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Rafe has said his world will have had false female dragons and he'll have to accommodate for that and more in how he adapts the world history.

I bet he has combined Dragon and Amaresu into one.

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

I bet he has combined Dragon and Amaresu into one.

 

We really know nothing about Amaresu. I don't think there's anything to really combine it with.

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

We really know nothing about Amaresu. I don't think there's anything to really combine it with.

 

Which makes it all the easier to combine it with.

[Beidomon]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. We assuredly do. One of the animated shorts talks about both halves of the power. And some of the actors have referred to saidin by name. Rosamund gave an interview where she talked about women not being able to teach men. It's there.

Well great. Thanks. 

[Beidomon]

32 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

It will have almost no impact on world-building or background lore, and require no ret-conning. I think the only difference will be that everyone is scared that there is another male false dragon and then that there is a real male dragon, and maybe wish it had been a woman.

That… and everything else I mentioned above. 

[Deadsy]

12 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

That… and everything else I mentioned above. 

 

 

Nothing you mentioned above will be impacted. None of it will be mentioned and none of it needs to be. Reds hunting male channelers may be mentioned, but that isn't a change. They aren't going to have episodes where they're thinking/talking about female false dragons and spend a bunch of time talking about what the world was like before Rand. Book readers will know but most non-readers will not even think about it.

 

It will have close to 0 impact on lore and backstory that is covered by the show. And it doesn't change the books.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Deadsy

[flinn]

 I am pretty sure the reason Rand was able to talk to Lews Therin and share his memories was because of the taint. In a big way, the taint caused by the DO was his undoing as well. It was necessary for Rand to share the memories in order to know how to repair the bore instead of patch it. Now, I 100% think Rand is the DR and that isnt an issue, but the taint on the men is a huge plot piece that is 100% necessary. Now if there are times when the women are tainted, then yes the DR would have to be a female. But even then they would know if they were looking for a female or a male depending on who was tainted.

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, flinn said:

 I am pretty sure the reason Rand was able to talk to Lews Therin and share his memories was because of the taint. In a big way, the taint caused by the DO was his undoing as well. It was necessary for Rand to share the memories in order to know how to repair the bore instead of patch it. Now, I 100% think Rand is the DR and that isnt an issue, but the taint on the men is a huge plot piece that is 100% necessary. Now if there are times when the women are tainted, then yes the DR would have to be a female. But even then they would know if they were looking for a female or a male depending on who was tainted.

 

 

The taint may have created the voice but I don't think it created the memories.

[flinn]

1 hour ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

The taint may have created the voice but I don't think it created the memories.

 No, the memories were real, but it took the taint to drive him to the madness to be able to have the memories.

[RextheDog]

yep, thats my view, with the overridding point that i assumed (maybe wrongly) the wheel would find a way for any dragon to tap into memories of dragons past.