How do you think Season 1 will end?

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, WOTnerd said:

Would that I had your confidence. The argument may be tiring to you, but it is a cause of great concern for many of us who view fantasy as escapism, not lectures.

In the end, I suppose no matter the outcome, we'll always have the books. 

Gay people existing on screen isn't a lecture.

[Guest]

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Edited November 9, 2021 by WOTnerd

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, WOTnerd said:

There are lots of little breadcrumbs that STORY comes second to modern day messaging. Also, please do not automatically lump any critic of Rafe's approach to storytelling in with the less savory bits of the fandom who actually are quite trollish.

 

Right. But my point is that those "breadcrumbs" don't add up to anything other than Rafe being concerned about representation. While there are plenty of other breadcrumbs suggesting that they care an awful lot about the story and the characters and that they are earnestly trying to make a great adaptation.

[Guest]

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Edited November 9, 2021 by WOTnerd

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

While there are plenty of other breadcrumbs suggesting that they care an awful lot about the story and the characters and that they are earnestly trying to make a great adaptation.

I'd say whole loafs of bread.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, WOTnerd said:

I am not one of them.

I'm not suggesting you are. I'm just trying to understand your concerns.

[Guest]

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Edited November 9, 2021 by WOTnerd

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, WOTnerd said:

I guess I'm having a difficult time putting exactly what I'm thinking in to words. Which I suppose is less than helpful on a word based communication platform. It's more of a feeling, I suppose, and I should leave it at that and see what happens.

We'll all find out if our dreams come true, we can live with it but meh, or if our skulls are crushed to dust while we wait for the next turning.

[Youss99]

I think we will be surprised that season one ends with Bela defeating the Dark One in a surprise attack on Shayol Ghul while all the would be Dragons are fiddling around at the Eye of the World.

 

Bela neighs her way into the Dark One's heart and it grows three sizes bigger on the spot.  The Dark One rides Bela down the mountain, puts up a message to everyone in giant letters, then heads back into his prison with Bela and seals the hole up himself.

 

The question is, what is the message the Dark One put on the side of the mountain?  That is the cliffhanger for season 2.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Youss99
grammar

[Tim]

1 hour ago, WOTnerd said:

Would that I had your confidence. The argument may be tiring to you, but it is a cause of great concern for many of us who view fantasy as escapism, not lectures.

I’m interested in this dichotomy which has come up a few times here but rarely so clearly.

 

It presupposes that we can all agree on what is escapism and what is a lecture. That in turn implies a certain “we” who have a certain set of characteristics, life experiences and perspectives.

 

Implicitly, the “many of us” would feel like a show which features a diverse set of characters (not just ethnically but also in terms of gender and sexuality) would be a “lecture” -  but isn’t that a function of how those viewers react to the show and what they focus on? If that presentation is something that the viewer either is used to in their life or thinks is a broadly noble aspiration, why would it be received as a lecture at all? Why would it be any more jarring than any other feature of the WOT world?
 

Conversely, consider the position of a young fantasy enthusiast who happens to be trans, but basically never sees people going through what they’re going through in the books they read, who picks up the WOT books. In this world, the distinction between men and women is absolute, and although there is ultimately a character who is in the “wrong” gendered-body, (a) they are an evil character; (b) they were put in that body by the books’ elemental big baddy; and (c) they eventually seemingly learn to just accept and adapt to their body.

 

What should that reader take from WOT? Will it be escapist for them? Or will it be received as a lecture? A lecture from RJ that (a) they don’t exist; or perhaps (b) they shouldn’t exist; or perhaps (c) they are evil and perverted; or perhaps (d) they should just learn to accept and make peace with the sex and implied gender of the body they are in?

 

If that reader does manage to treat WOT as escapist and not a lecture, then I think they have managed a feat of internal dissociation rather more impressive than the purported “many of us” who are worried about Rafe saying he is a feminist. Would they not find it easier to “escape” into the books if they didn’t have to go through that process first?

 

I’m not advocating for a particular outcome with respect to these issues, or saying that books fans are not allowed to be dubious about the show changing aspects of the books. But I do think this apparently easy binary between politics and escapism is actually way more complicated than we often choose to acknowledge. Ultimately, every decision that is being made here could be received as being in the service of escapism or of a lecture - including the decision not to change something from the books. How we each choose to interpret those decisions says as much about us as it does about the show runners.

[Wassup]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

I’m interested in this dichotomy which has come up a few times here but rarely so clearly.

 

It presupposes that we can all agree on what is escapism and what is a lecture. That in turn implies a certain “we” who have a certain set of characteristics, life experiences and perspectives.

 

Implicitly, the “many of us” would feel like a show which features a diverse set of characters (not just ethnically but also in terms of gender and sexuality) would be a “lecture” -  but isn’t that a function of how those viewers react to the show and what they focus on? If that presentation is something that the viewer either is used to in their life or thinks is a broadly noble aspiration, why would it be received as a lecture at all? Why would it be any more jarring than any other feature of the WOT world?
 

Conversely, consider the position of a young fantasy enthusiast who happens to be trans, but basically never sees people going through what they’re going through in the books they read, who picks up the WOT books. In this world, the distinction between men and women is absolute, and although there is ultimately a character who is in the “wrong” gendered-body, (a) they are an evil character; (b) they were put in that body by the books’ elemental big baddy; and (c) they eventually seemingly learn to just accept and adapt to their body.

 

What should that reader take from WOT? Will it be escapist for them? Or will it be received as a lecture? A lecture from RJ that (a) they don’t exist; or perhaps (b) they shouldn’t exist; or perhaps (c) they are evil and perverted; or perhaps (d) they should just learn to accept and make peace with the sex and implied gender of the body they are in?

 

If that reader does manage to treat WOT as escapist and not a lecture, then I think they have managed a feat of internal dissociation rather more impressive than the purported “many of us” who are worried about Rafe saying he is a feminist. Would they not find it easier to “escape” into the books if they didn’t have to go through that process first?

 

I’m not advocating for a particular outcome with respect to these issues, or saying that books fans are not allowed to be dubious about the show changing aspects of the books. But I do think this apparently easy binary between politics and escapism is actually way more complicated than we often choose to acknowledge. Ultimately, every decision that is being made here could be received as being in the service of escapism or of a lecture - including the decision not to change something from the books. How we each choose to interpret those decisions says as much about us as it does about the show runners.

So much in this post goes along with some of my thoughts lately.  I started reading the WoT in the late 90s.  I thoroughly enjoyed this series enough to be super excited about everything else that has come out.  This Amazon version looks amazing and should not only be entertaining, but allow us fans to maybe share more with those around us who have not read the books.

 

However, I did not find a personal connection with any specific characters.  I was not moved in my own personal life by these books.  But, there are many people who have stated it did have a profound impact on them.  Many people have commented that these books and characters helped them get through difficult times in their lives.  These people may be amongst those who would like to see more from the TV series than what they got in the books because they want to share this and more with those who are important to them in their real life.  I try to consider the POV of anyone who is looking for a change or fearing a change to understand it.  We know there will be upset fans no matter what.

 

I understand initial reactions to some changes.  I questioned the diversity in the casting of the EF5 at first.  The WoT world is very diverse and character appearance is something that is used in the plots throughout the books.  It does not make sense that such a backwoods, excluded from the world local like Emond's Field would have a diverse representation.  However, I see the negligible impact this has on the overall story and will not even notice if the actors do a great job of bringing the characters to life.  Look at the musical Hamilton.  That cast did such an amazing job with the show that the diversity of the cast could be overlooked regardless of your knowledge of historical figures.

 

In the end, for me, I am glad that there is a WoT show coming out.  I have tried to get my friends and family to read the books.  No one will.  This show may bring that about.  That would make me happy even if there are differences.  Sometimes the differences are better for some people.  GoTs fans were upset that Lady Stoneheart was not in the series.  I disliked Catelyn Stark and liked Lady Stoneheart even less.  I was glad she was not in it.  There are people who will feel the same about things in WoT.

 

To keep in line with the beginning of this thread:

Bela will meet up with the extremely rare horse Trolloc.  They will become fast friends and teach the rest of the world to sing in perfect harmony.  The lost songs will be found and balance will be restored.

 

The End

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

I’m interested in this dichotomy which has come up a few times here but rarely so clearly.

 

It presupposes that we can all agree on what is escapism and what is a lecture. That in turn implies a certain “we” who have a certain set of characteristics, life experiences and perspectives.

 

Implicitly, the “many of us” would feel like a show which features a diverse set of characters (not just ethnically but also in terms of gender and sexuality) would be a “lecture” -  but isn’t that a function of how those viewers react to the show and what they focus on? If that presentation is something that the viewer either is used to in their life or thinks is a broadly noble aspiration, why would it be received as a lecture at all? Why would it be any more jarring than any other feature of the WOT world?
 

Conversely, consider the position of a young fantasy enthusiast who happens to be trans, but basically never sees people going through what they’re going through in the books they read, who picks up the WOT books. In this world, the distinction between men and women is absolute, and although there is ultimately a character who is in the “wrong” gendered-body, (a) they are an evil character; (b) they were put in that body by the books’ elemental big baddy; and (c) they eventually seemingly learn to just accept and adapt to their body.

 

What should that reader take from WOT? Will it be escapist for them? Or will it be received as a lecture? A lecture from RJ that (a) they don’t exist; or perhaps (b) they shouldn’t exist; or perhaps (c) they are evil and perverted; or perhaps (d) they should just learn to accept and make peace with the sex and implied gender of the body they are in?

 

If that reader does manage to treat WOT as escapist and not a lecture, then I think they have managed a feat of internal dissociation rather more impressive than the purported “many of us” who are worried about Rafe saying he is a feminist. Would they not find it easier to “escape” into the books if they didn’t have to go through that process first?

 

I’m not advocating for a particular outcome with respect to these issues, or saying that books fans are not allowed to be dubious about the show changing aspects of the books. But I do think this apparently easy binary between politics and escapism is actually way more complicated than we often choose to acknowledge. Ultimately, every decision that is being made here could be received as being in the service of escapism or of a lecture - including the decision not to change something from the books. How we each choose to interpret those decisions says as much about us as it does about the show runners.

Not really. Look, you can justify it however you wish, but we simply know lecturing when we see it. For example, when you start changing character sexuality or deviating from the lore of the books. But not really interested in heading back down this rabbit hole. 

[Rand the Plumber]

On 11/8/2021 at 7:48 PM, Reader said:

I think it might end with the scene where Galad arrives at the Tower.

 

Warning, the following clip contains WoT book spoilers...

 

 

A spanking! A spanking!

 

On 11/8/2021 at 9:35 PM, LordyLord said:

I think Episode 7 ends all EOTW of the world content

 

Episode 8 will be the 1st 9 chapters of the Great Hunt.

 

It will cover the Rand meeting Siuan,Raid on Faldara(Which will be bloodier and Bigger than the Books), Padan fain escapes during Raid, Rand going on Great Hunt and Egwene/Nyaneve going to Tar Valon

 

We will also see Tear conquered by the Baalzamon as a huge teaser for Seaon 2

 

Trying to be serious for a moment, this sounds like a very sensible arc for S1.

 

On 11/8/2021 at 7:24 PM, DojoToad said:

Rand gets Egwene pregnant and Nynaeve marches them back to the Two Rivers to face the women's Circle and get married. (I win again Lews Therin - no matter who the Dragon was).

 

Moiraine falls for Mat's whimsical charms, gives Lan his freedom, and runs off to Ebou Dar to open a bed-and-breakfast with Matrim Bloody Cauthon.

 

Lan takes Perrin under his wing as Perrin is grieving after killing his wife.  Together they raise the Golden Crane and begin the hard work of reclaiming Malkier from the Blight.

Enough sensibleness. Back to silliness.  I would rather see Lan and Perrin open a B&B at Tarwin’s Gap.  The could sit on the edge of ruin and offer spacious bedrooms with individually decorated rooms, and beds decorated with Lan’s  hand stitched bedspreads.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Rand the Plumber

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Not really. Look, you can justify it however you wish, but we simply know lecturing when we see it. For example, when you start changing character sexuality or deviating from the lore of the books. But not really interested in heading back down this rabbit hole. 

There we have it. People merely existing in media = a Lecture.

 

[WalterKohl]

2 hours ago, Tim said:

I’m interested in this dichotomy which has come up a few times here but rarely so clearly.

 

It presupposes that we can all agree on what is escapism and what is a lecture. That in turn implies a certain “we” who have a certain set of characteristics, life experiences and perspectives.

 

Implicitly, the “many of us” would feel like a show which features a diverse set of characters (not just ethnically but also in terms of gender and sexuality) would be a “lecture” -  but isn’t that a function of how those viewers react to the show and what they focus on? If that presentation is something that the viewer either is used to in their life or thinks is a broadly noble aspiration, why would it be received as a lecture at all? Why would it be any more jarring than any other feature of the WOT world?
 

Conversely, consider the position of a young fantasy enthusiast who happens to be trans, but basically never sees people going through what they’re going through in the books they read, who picks up the WOT books. In this world, the distinction between men and women is absolute, and although there is ultimately a character who is in the “wrong” gendered-body, (a) they are an evil character; (b) they were put in that body by the books’ elemental big baddy; and (c) they eventually seemingly learn to just accept and adapt to their body.

 

What should that reader take from WOT? Will it be escapist for them? Or will it be received as a lecture? A lecture from RJ that (a) they don’t exist; or perhaps (b) they shouldn’t exist; or perhaps (c) they are evil and perverted; or perhaps (d) they should just learn to accept and make peace with the sex and implied gender of the body they are in?

 

If that reader does manage to treat WOT as escapist and not a lecture, then I think they have managed a feat of internal dissociation rather more impressive than the purported “many of us” who are worried about Rafe saying he is a feminist. Would they not find it easier to “escape” into the books if they didn’t have to go through that process first?

 

I’m not advocating for a particular outcome with respect to these issues, or saying that books fans are not allowed to be dubious about the show changing aspects of the books. But I do think this apparently easy binary between politics and escapism is actually way more complicated than we often choose to acknowledge. Ultimately, every decision that is being made here could be received as being in the service of escapism or of a lecture - including the decision not to change something from the books. How we each choose to interpret those decisions says as much about us as it does about the show runners.

This....  much better than I could have said...

39 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

There we have it. People merely existing in media = a Lecture.

 

Thank you, some times the most obvious explanation is blank to those who use it.... 

49 minutes ago, Wassup said:

I questioned the diversity in the casting of the EF5 at first.  The WoT world is very diverse and character appearance is something that is used in the plots throughout the books.  It does not make sense that such a backwoods, excluded from the world local like Emond's Field would have a diverse representation. 

I agree with much of what you said and don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying here but wanted to address this particularly...  we have to remember that this is the last age (as opposed to some ancient time), and the breaking of the world was only 1000 or so years ago, evolution doesn't work that fast, if at the breaking Monetheron (SP?) was filled with multi ethnic people, its not surprising that only 1000 years later the remnants show that same multiethnicity...  

[MasterAblar]

53 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

There we have it. People merely existing in media = a Lecture.

 

 

I doubt the issue is with existing. Its with replacing something else.

 

I think simply there are people willing to tolerate changes to existing characters/storylines/whatever in order to accomodate representation, and others who feel that representation should not supercede faithfully telling the story as it was written. Personally it seems to me that WoT has more than enough material to work with in order to support both. 

 

I think it's fair to say that if the changes are too hamfisted, thats when it ends up feeling like a lecture. But I have yet to see any evidence that this show will be that, and will reserve judgment until it actually comes out. 

 

It is also fair to say that it is entirely reasonable for people to wish for representation in stories. On the other hand I don't believe that every bit of art can be expected to offer representation for all. This is particularly problematic for older works which simply we're imagined with that in mind. To wit, the simple fact is that it is very difficult to fit transgender identity into a magic system which is  built in binary fashion without completely overhaulting the system. However, there is absolutely nothing in the WoT world that precludes their existence, nor even their ability to channel. All it takes is disasociating transgender identity from the soul's ties to saidin or saidar. And indeed as transgender individuals exist in our world it is only reasonable that they exist in the WoT world. 

 

I am hardly an expert on the subject but I can fairly confidently say that:

 

- Representation =/= a Lecture

 

But by the same token:

 

- opposition to changes that allow representation does not inherintly signify opposition to representation

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Elder_Haman]

43 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

we simply know lecturing when we see it.

Only you haven't seen it.

 

There is an important distinction to be drawn here: there is nothing inherently political about casting people of color and people of different sexualities and gender preferences. There is nothing political about including gay and/or bisexual characters in a universe where we know characters with these sexualities exist canonically. (There are some potentially lore breaking aspects to including a trans or non-binary character - especially if that character is a channeler.) Inclusion is not the same as a political lecture. 

 

Shows can absolutely be written to be preachy about certain political viewpoints. There are plenty of examples of this being a phenomena. And it can be off-putting for audiences. But at this point you have zero evidence that Wheel of Time is going to be preachy.

 

So by making the assumption before actually seeing the show, you give credence to the argument that opposition to inclusion is based on racism or homophobia or sexism, etc. If your dire predictions are correct, the preachy left-wing politics will be immediately apparent and you will be able to provide examples to support your point. 

[SinisterDeath]

Since I've yet to post How I think Season 1 will end.

Episode 7, The Blight/Waygate. Ends with them finding the Green Man.
Episode 8. The Eye of the World. Epic clash between Forsaken & crew. Rand goes balistic and destroys Trollocs in Tarwins Gap.

Series raps up with Faine fleeing Fal Dara, and the group taking off to catch him, while the girls are sent to Tar Valon.

INTERESTING FIND
Season 2 Episode 1 has a title? 
"A Taste of Solitude"

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7462410/episodes?season=2

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

Not really. Look, you can justify it however you wish, but we simply know lecturing when we see it. For example, when you start changing character sexuality or deviating from the lore of the books. But not really interested in heading back down this rabbit hole. 

 

 

Yikes

[Deadsy]

I think season 1 will end much like the book did, but with more of a cliffhanger. Maybe the Aes Sedai arriving, or the horn being stolen.

[DaddyFinn]

46 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

INTERESTING FIND
Season 2 Episode 1 has a title? 
"A Taste of Solitude"

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7462410/episodes?season=2

That was released ages ago. I feel that it's related to either Rand or the whole crew having a few moments to rest before continuing on the journey.

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That was released ages ago. I feel that it's related to either Rand or the whole crew having a few moments to rest before continuing on the journey.

 

I wonder if they might just dive into the TDR plotline, condense the events of TGH and TDR together. Maybe Rand goes off alone? Or might not be a reference to Rand at all. Or maybe it'll be a general theme for everyone.

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I wonder if they might just dive into the TDR plotline, condense the events of TGH and TDR together. Maybe Rand goes off alone?

That would be a huge change. I don't think it will happen yet

[Agitel]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That would be a huge change. I don't think it will happen yet

 

I'll just say it's the type of change I've been expecting this whole time, and would be much less surprised/put off by it than, say, the idea that LTT could be reborn as a woman. Funny how that is. One is a lore change which they can probably get away with with minimal plot consequences, and the other is a massive condensing of the plot, but the condensing is entirely what I'd expect given the brief of adapting WOT in 6 to 8 seasons and think could be done while keeping true to the spirit of the books.

 

Edit: Still, it's obviously a huge piece of speculation on my part.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Agitel

[SinisterDeath]

13 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That was released ages ago. I feel that it's related to either Rand or the whole crew having a few moments to rest before continuing on the journey.

This flew under my radar.