New clip about the Aes Sedai

[Ralph]

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Just now, MasterAblar said:

I would actually love if the possibility of the DR being a woman is a complete Aes Sedai creation. It would serve the show their arrogance and mistaken belief in their self importance, without actually sacrificing the lore. Not sure how to bring it to screen properly but it would be an interesting take and in keeping with the typical Aes Sedai mindset regarding the White Tower's role.

That would be amazing, but I doubt it. Especially as we have seen Egwene waking from a dream just like the boys do 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

. 

That would be amazing, but I doubt it. Especially as we have seen Egwene waking from a dream just like the boys do 

 

I'm still of the mind that her sharing the dreams with the other 3 is actually her Dreamer talent allowing her to accidentally view the dreams of her friends. So it works double duty to introduce her dreaming ability as well as keep the mystery up.

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

. 

That would be amazing, but I doubt it. Especially as we have seen Egwene waking from a dream just like the boys do 

 

Just now, Skipp said:

 

I'm still of the mind that her sharing the dreams with the other 3 is actually her Dreamer talent allowing her to accidentally view the dreams of her friends. So it works double duty to introduce her dreaming ability as well as keep the mystery up.

 

Agree with Skipp, very much hope that is her dreaming talent showing up. It could also be Baalzamon messing with her as he sees her as important even if she can't be the DR. Incidentally I'd rather they not make Egwene Taveren simply because it takes away from her eagerness and willingness to force her destiny in a way that none of the boys did. 

[JaimAybara]

This is grade A pandering to me, completely unnecessary, and messes with lore, but I’ll still give it a watch because I don’t care. But… for all those that told people that “it was just Aes Sedai talk” and said they would eat crow, haha pay up. 

 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

This is grade A pandering to me, completely unnecessary, and messes with lore, but I’ll still give it a watch because I don’t care. But… for all those that told people that “it was just Aes Sedai talk” and said they would eat crow, haha pay up. 
 

No dice from me.

 

I always posited that we didn't know what Moiraine knew, and until we did it could have went either way... At least they didn't make her a liar. 

[Rose]

37 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I would actually love if the possibility of the DR being a woman is a complete Aes Sedai creation. It would serve the show their arrogance and mistaken belief in their self importance, without actually sacrificing the lore. Not sure how to bring it to screen properly but it would be an interesting take and in keeping with the typical Aes Sedai mindset regarding the White Tower's role.

 

That would be *chef's kiss*

 

I can picture it. Aes Sedai studying the prophecy which sometimes speak of the DR as a savior and sometimes as a destroyer. They can't imagine a man saving the world, so they decide it means the DR could be a woman, and will only destroy the world if he turns out to be reborn as a man.

[Rose]

21 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

But… for all those that told people that “it was just Aes Sedai talk” and said they would eat crow, haha pay up. 

 

 

 

 

I think what I said was that I hope it's just Aes Sedai misdirection because if it's not I'd be annoyed. So, I'm annoyed. Lol. I don't think they needed to do this even if they wanted to keep the possibility of Egwene for the viewers and the characters. They could still have had Moiraine knowing it's a boy but misdirecting on purpose.

 

But oh well. It's not the end of the world. Now that I know that Moiraine also thinks it could be a girl, I'm more interested in examining the possible ramifications and speculating about what they'll do with it than in despairing. I'm intrigued to find out how it all plays out.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Rose

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, Rose said:

 

I think what I said was that I hope it's just Aes Sedai misdirection because if it's not I'd be annoyed. So, I'm annoyed. Lol. I don't think they needed to do this even if they wanted to keep the possibility of Egwene for the viewers and the characters. They could still have had Moiraine knowing it's a boy but misdirecting on purpose. But oh well. Now that I know that's not hr case, I'm more interested in examining the possible ramifications and speculating about what they'll do with it than in despairing. I'm intrigued to find out how it all plays out.

I liked Egwene and Nynaeve so much because everything they did was self determined or at least way more so than the men. The Ta’veren aspect and DR aspect was cool but it came with so many strings. It was cool that the ladies chose to do what they did, and it was not really due to fate or at least substantially less. I’m not doom and gloom about it by any means though. I was just excited to predict accurately…at least in what the phrasing meant. 

[Rose]

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I liked Egwene and Nynaeve so much because everything they did was self determined or at least way more so than the men. The Ta’veren aspect and DR aspect was cool but it came with so many strings. It was cool that the ladies chose to do what they did, and it was not really due to fate or at least substantially less. I’m not doom and gloom about it by any means though. I was just excited to predict accurately…at least in what the phrasing meant. 

 

Yes, I agree that Egwene and Nynaeve deciding to go instead of being forced was pretty cool and central to their characters. I hope they can still keep that characterization in other ways. As far as I know, Nynaeve still catches up to them later in the show so that remains at least.

 

And to be fair, it was always a bit weird that in the wake of a literal Trolloc attack destroying her village, Egwene was all "lalalala let's go on a fun adventure!!!". It came off as pretty childish to me, and they want to age them up, so it probably wouldn't work as well in the show. Maybe she can still be the first to agree to leave and the others need more convincing, or something like that.

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

I think what I said was that I hope it's just Aes Sedai misdirection because if it's not I'd be annoyed. So, I'm annoyed. Lol. I don't think they needed to do this even if they wanted to keep the possibility of Egwene for the viewers and the characters. They could still have had Moiraine knowing it's a boy but misdirecting on purpose.

 

But oh well. It's not the end of the world. Now that I know that Moiraine also thinks it could be a girl, I'm more interested in examining the possible ramifications and speculating about what they'll do with it than in despairing. I'm intrigued to find out how it all plays out.

 

I personally didn't think they would include Egwene as a DR candidate in the show.  I thought Moiraine would tip toe around the use of the term DR and just say one of the four of you will stand against the shadow.  And while we could still be a marketing dub I don't think they will pull back from it now that they have specified that they don't know what gender the baby DR will be.

 

Even so I firmly believe that the wild speculation that they will actually change the DR won't happen.

 

But as always I will eagerly await to see how they address it in the show.

 

Can you imagine the crazy speculation that is going to happen if we, the audience, catch an Aes Sedai, that isn't black Ajah in the books, in a lie.

[DragonFairy]

5 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

If it were an adaptation of The Wheel of Time, it might bother me, but why get mad at a fanfic?

Because they said it was an adaptation of WoT, not a fan fic.

[swollymammoth]

29 minutes ago, DragonFairy said:

Because they said it was an adaptation of WoT, not a fan fic.

You know, the other day I was at a Halloween party, and this guy said he was Ted Lasso, but when I pulled on his mustache it came right off! 

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Rose said:

 

That would be *chef's kiss*

 

I can picture it. Aes Sedai studying the prophecy which sometimes speak of the DR as a savior and sometimes as a destroyer. They can't imagine a man saving the world, so they decide it means the DR could be a woman, and will only destroy the world if he turns out to be reborn as a man.

 This idea would not suck. 

[DragonFairy]

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You know, the other day I was at a Halloween party, and this guy said he was Ted Lasso, but when I pulled on his mustache it came right off! 

 

So we're not supposed to be able to trust that when the show runner says he's doing an adaptation that is really what he intends? I never knew fan fic was synonymous with adaptation.

[Agitel]

6 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Last one, but LOLOLOLOL 

 

So man hating comes to the Wheel of Time. Let's just ignore the actually lore of the world we're adapting in which the only reason that women were not present when Lews Therin tried to seal away the Dark One is because all the female Aes Sedai formed the Fateful Concord and refused to go with him even after their plan to use the Cheoken Kal had failed and there was no other option. The female Aes Sedai's hubris and unwillingness to work with men is directly the cause of the tainting of Saidin and the Breaking of the World.

 

But I guess having women make mistakes is too problematic an idea to fly in 2021, so we'll just rewrite it to say that everything is the men's fault. 

 

Holy crap. 

 

If women had been present, saidar would have been tainted as well, and the world even more doomed. Their Concord saved the world from that. Rand was only able to protect the One Power by using the True Power as a glove.

[swollymammoth]

5 minutes ago, DragonFairy said:

 

So we're not supposed to be able to trust that when the show runner says he's doing an adaptation that is really what he intends? I never knew fan fic was synonymous with adaptation.

It's not. But just being an adaptation doesn't mean its a fanfic. What's the difference between a fanfic and the original anyway? Same characters. Same setting. Same iconography. Recognizably WoT, at least on a surface level. Shared/borrowed iconography and a contract saying "I own the rights to WoT" don't matter. It's what's underneath that counts. Otherwise we're just cheering for laundry (to quote Jerry Seinfeld). 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

This is grade A pandering to me, completely unnecessary, and messes with lore, but I’ll still give it a watch because I don’t care. But… for all those that told people that “it was just Aes Sedai talk” and said they would eat crow, haha pay up. 

 

Not eating crow yet. But I'm not thrilled with this change which I see as being unnecessary and not serving any real important purpose. I'll wait until I see the execution to decide.

 

I am still 100% convinced (by the character posters if nothing else) that Rand is still the Dragon. And I don't think this change will "break the lore" or "ruin the show" - as some have pointed out, it's very on brand for the Aes Sedai to be arrogant enough to think that humanity's savior simply must be a woman.

 

And while at first, I was of the opinion that this change would dilute the fearsomeness of the Dragon mythology, as I've chewed on it I think it could actually allow them to play the "save the world or destroy it" dichotomy to greater effect. The world hopes for a female Dragon who will marshal the strength of the White Tower and lead it to a glorious victory. It is given a backwoods sheepherder who is destined to go insane. That's pretty terrifying, actually.

[DragonFairy]

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

RJ said in some turnings the "saviour" is the soul of Amaresu.

 

But Amaresu isn't the Dragon. In the third age, it's the Dragon who is reborn and is the savior, and that is the crux of The Wheel of Time series set in the third age. Make it Amaresu, and it's a different story in a different age, not the one we all love.

 

3 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Having a female Dragon could be justified by the lore, but at that point, we're not talking about a WoT adaptation anymore. We're talking about a fanfic, a really high budget fanfic.

 

Totally agree. I was under the impression that we were getting an ADAPTATION of WoT, not a fan fic. In fact, I specifically remember RJ saying in an interview that he did not approve of WoT fan fic. He said it is HIS work and he expects people to respect that. (Not those exact words.)

 

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

I am finding it difficult to understand why this has provoked such a strong reaction.

 

I don't find it difficult at all. Up until now I have been very generous about changes and taking a wait and see attitude. But now we're talking about potentially changing the basic world lore. That has me VERY concerned. If they are willing to change basic lore, what else are they gonna change?

 

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

Is it possible there is a little bit of confirmation bias going on, that people who see a gay liberal self-declared feminist showrunner automatically assume that his decisions will follow his dogma which is very different from theirs? Then when minimal changes are seen to have occurred, with fairly clear and understandable reasons, they see this as yet another example of what they were already expecting? 

 

Yes, it is possible. But I think it is possible, if not probable, that his world view is going to affect his decisions. (Already we see his fave, Egwene, leaving EF for a noble reason--to protect the village--instead of an immature desire for adventure, not caring that she is giving Moiraine yet one more person to worry about.)

 

But I have to argue that this is a minimal change with fairly clear and understandable reasons. The not knowing whether it's a boy or a girl was not needed to throw the audience off about who the DR candidates are. "One of the 4 of you" would have done the job just as well, and would have been perfect Aes Sedai dancing around the truth.

 

The only way I can see that I personally would accept this is that Aes Sedai do not know that the ability to channel saidar is attached to a woman's soul, and that the ability to channel saidin is attached to a man's soul, but that this is revealed as part of the world lore somehow.

[DragonFairy]

2 hours ago, Rose said:

it was always a bit weird that in the wake of a literal Trolloc attack destroying her village, Egwene was all "lalalala let's go on a fun adventure!!!". It came off as pretty childish to me,

 

It was, that was the whole point. She had a lot of growing up to do and she needed to do it fast. They're cutting some of character development.

[DragonFairy]

42 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

If women had been present, saidar would have been tainted as well, and the world even more doomed. Their Concord saved the world from that. Rand was only able to protect the One Power by using the True Power as a glove.

 

Is that canon? I don't recall that ever being said. My impression of it was always that if the women had helped, it might actually have succeeded and there would have been no backlash, thus no taint on any part of the OP.

[DragonFairy]

7 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Last one, but LOLOLOLOL 

 

So man hating comes to the Wheel of Time. Let's just ignore the actually lore of the world we're adapting in which the only reason that women were not present when Lews Therin tried to seal away the Dark One is because all the female Aes Sedai formed the Fateful Concord and refused to go with him even after their plan to use the Cheoken Kal had failed and there was no other option. The female Aes Sedai's hubris and unwillingness to work with men is directly the cause of the tainting of Saidin and the Breaking of the World.

 

But I guess having women make mistakes is too problematic an idea to fly in 2021, so we'll just rewrite it to say that everything is the men's fault. 

 

Holy crap. 

 

Welcome to the woke world of 2021. And people wonder why we're worried Rafe's feminism is influencing the way the show is written. (And I'm a woman, just so you know.)

[DragonFairy]

23 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It is given a backwoods sheepherder who is destined to go insane.

 

It's hilarious, when you put it that way!

[Agitel]

28 minutes ago, DragonFairy said:

 

Is that canon? I don't recall that ever being said. My impression of it was always that if the women had helped, it might actually have succeeded and there would have been no backlash, thus no taint on any part of the OP.

 

It's canon that Rand used the True Power as a glove to prevent the Dark One from backlashing on the saidar and saidin he was channeling to heal the Bore. The DO had to be "pushed" back from the Bore so he could heal it, meaning the One Power he was using would have been in contact with the DO and vulnerable if he hadn't used the True Power as a glove.

 

If Rand hadn't been linked with Moridin, and if Callandor wasn't "flawed", Rand's plan wouldn't have worked.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Agitel

[Agitel]

Also, maybe we shouldn't be looking at is as Moiraine being made woke. Maybe instead we should look at it as proof that the women of show-WOT will be as full of it as their book counterparts. That's exactly how many of the Aes Sedai and even just women look at men, and why the "wonder girls" are seen as insufferable. 

 

More to be said there, but I got to sign off.

[Kudzu]

What if they added some prophecies about Egwene and Nynaeve (maybe even Elayne and Aviendha) using female pronouns. But have it unclear they aren't actually about the Dragon.

 

I mean 

Spoiler

Egwene sacrifices herself to repair the pattern and arguably saves the world in doing so.

 

Even if they include the existing prophesies with the male pronoun, wouldn't the addition of something like that be enough to sow some doubts with Moiraine, without it actually being possible the DR could be female?