A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

SinisterDeath · November 4, 2021

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Altering the pronouns of Gitara's prophecy isn't a huge deal, I suppose. And as you ably demonstrated above, none of the other core prophecies are gendered. I don't believe the Aes Sedai were ever able to properly study Callandor, and since it's still clear to me that Rand is the Dragon, that point is moot anyway.

Well no, the Karaethon Cycle were very gendered. Only 3 of them didn't use pronouns and those weren't directly about who the Dragon Was.
Not all of the prophecies were only about Rand. Someone else showed how easy it is to make them neutral without changing much of anything.

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

It remains to be seen how effective they are in pulling this off. Was the change worth it? They had to know it wouldn't sit well with purists, so there has to be some long term goal in mind. I suppose that relates too how long they will keep the "mystery" of the Dragon's identity alive and how they will play the ultimate reveal.

100% it will be obvious by the season finale. Hell, I suspect we don't have the last two episode names because of spoilers. ?

12 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

First, this is our one shot. If this show fails, if it's bad, that's it. There's no second $10 million an episode WoT adaptation coming down the pipeline.

Well, the guys behind Winter Dragon are attempting to make an unrelated Age of Legends movie trilogy. So, we do have a second chance.. Or at least you do. My guess is those dudes share you're politics. ?

12 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

As to your second point, I doubt I'm the only person here with a degree in English, but my experience is that the writers in my classes were being taught and encouraged to inject a woke agenda into their writing. Everything we read was analyzed through post-modern, feminist, and Marxist lenses, and even now I'm trying to break the habits that that education instilled in me when it comes to writing my own stories. The writers on this show have the same education in storytelling that I got, and it tends to approach stories from a certain perspective.

Again with the woke. It's a tiresome criticism.

As for the other word salad, you're doing exactly what your professors did, except in reverse.

I'm saying. It's easier to enjoy media if you stop all that crap.

Stop trying to find things to be offended over, just so you can justify that you're the victim.

12 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Not to mention that these days you can look to just about any blockbuster and the creators are shouting their movies wokeness from the rooftops, how they're proud that their stories are vehicles for their politics. Ex. Black Widow, Captain Marvel, Birds of Prey, Shang-Chi, Eternals, No Time to Die, and that's just off the top of my head.

Are they? Or are conservative pundits telling you that's what they're doing?

Ya'll like to criticize people for "virtue signaling" how woke they are, while ignoring that you are virtue signaling how "un-woke" you are. It's a stupid game, and the only thing we earn from stupid games, is stupid prizes.

3 hours ago, Morani said:

Everyone writes what they know. Seeing as there are some female and LGBTQ people that are finally let into the writing business, a lot more stories will have that perspective.

This is true to an extent. I mean, there's always that example of that guy who wrote a love scene with female characters bending their limbs in impossible ways which makes a person wonder if the author had ever actually seen a naked woman before...

Female & LGBTQ are gaining ground in "the biz"... But even then, every "remake" is subjected to the "anti-woke" crowd, whining that they made some character gay, or black. Then we get the tired "make you're own character!". Then when they do create an original character, you're met with "WHY ARE YOU SHOVING THIS WOKE AGENDA DOWN OUR THROATS!".

There's just no winning with people who seek to be offended over everything.

3 hours ago, Morani said:

For every movie that you mentioned (and btw, what were "woke" about these movies, I am genuinely curious, please give me examples) we still have twenty big budget movies being released who were not "woke" in the slightest, but told the same old perspectives that we are used to, and that would never pass the bechdel test.

Birds of Prey wasn't... woke? Neither was Black Widow.
In all technicality "Falcon and the Winter Soldier" was the most "woke", as it actually dealt with the context of what "woke" is really about.

Quote

I hope we’re not just lambasting any superhero film featuring a superhero who is not a white dude as “woke” at this point.

That's pretty much exactly what's been going on...

22 minutes ago, Tim said:

I’ve made this point before, but I am far more worried that the show will just be badly written and acted and clunky and unpersuasive than I am that it will deviate too far from the books. The former seems the much greater risk to me, and the more grave.

100%.

That was my worry about the possibility of "1 of 4" being a lie, bad writing.

16 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

there are more repercussions.

the black ajah was looking for the dragon and trying to kill him; they killed hundreds of "lucky" men because they were hoping one of them was lucky because he was channeling. if they didn't knew the dragon was a boy, that manhunt makes a lot less sense.

I'm sure there are other repercussions too.

This can still happen even if they don't know the gender.
Male channelers are still dangerous, and Women have an easier time spotting "female" channelers then they do "male".

Arthellion · November 4, 2021

@SinisterDeath Just because all those things can still happen doesn't mean that they happen for the same reason and as I have stated above, lessens the weight and emotional depth that is connected to those events.

It's fine that you don't think the Dragon having to be male is necessary for you to feel the emotional tension at a high level in these instances. I think it's pretty clear that you don't find the gender essentialism (regardless of it's actual existen IRL) in WoT to actually be essential to the story (heh).

But you keep trying to diminish very real concerns people have by basically saying "No, your concerns are unjustified because we can keep everything the same." But...it's not the same. The motivations are different. The weight is different for those of us who found the gender essentialism tension in WoT to be one of it's greatest facets.

I don't agree with all of RJ's interpretations of gender. I don't think he portrayed an accurate essentialism of what occurs in the real world, but I do recognize that it is what exists in his work and it plays a key theme and role in the story.

Soapbox:

My hope originally for this show is that it could have been a kind of cultural zeitgeist, more than just a good fantasy television. A zeitgeist moment exemplifying "Sometimes people of different groups don't under stand each other, but we're stronger together."

Imagine a TV show with the cultural influence of GoT promoting a kind of unity between different identity groups. I hope they can still lean into that. It's desperately needed in this day and age.

/soapbox.

Either way, I get that it's not something you find vital to the story, but for many of us, it was. So our concerns are reasonable and we can still hope that the show turns out well enough. I'm still excited for the show. I'm excited for my wife who's never experienced Wheel of Time to learn to love the characters I grew up with. I'm excited to see these characters in all their elements.

Just hope it doesn't become unrecognizable.

Edit: @Beidomon Thanks for the shout out ? Haha. I promise I'm a nice person in real life and there is no need for actual body bags ?

Edited November 4, 2021 by Arthellion

king of nowhere · November 4, 2021

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

This can still happen even if they don't know the gender.
Male channelers are still dangerous, and Women have an easier time spotting "female" channelers then they do "male".

yeah, but given that they killed men because of a negligible chance they may be the dragon, wouldn't they have killed women for the same reason? wouldn't the black ajah also try to kill girls with the right age and the spark?

the best chance i see to stop this train of thought is if the black ajah has access to dark prophecies explicitly mentioning the male business

SinisterDeath · November 4, 2021

20 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

But you keep trying to diminish very real concerns people have by basically saying "No, your concerns are unjustified because we can keep everything the same." But...it's not the same. The motivations are different. The weight is different for those of us who found the gender essentialism tension in WoT to be one of it's greatest facets.

Just as you're trying to diminish other's who are claiming this isn't a big deal?

I've been consistent that it's possible with the information we have now, that RJ's gender essentialism can be intact, while including more unreliable narrators.

23 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Either way, I get that it's not something you find vital to the story, but for many of us, it was. So our concerns are reasonable and we can still hope that the show turns out well enough. I'm still excited for the show. I'm excited for my wife who's never experienced Wheel of Time to learn to love the characters I grew up with. I'm excited to see these characters in all their elements.

Every few years, we get people on Dragonmount that jump on a soap box, getting mad over the unjust treatment of males in the wheel of time universe, and how they hate all the women in the series.

Not a single one of them, has ever taken a step back and thought "Huh, being treated like shit based on my gender really sucks. Is this what it's like for women in our society?".

Not everyone gets the same lesson from these books... some take away the wrong lessons.

25 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Just hope it doesn't become unrecognizable.

Same. Which is why minor changes like these, which can be explained away aren't a problem. Major changes like Egwene actually being the Dragon, or Perrin becoming a bear brother are far more concerning to me. Hell, I hope they don't get rid of his golden eyes!

26 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yeah, but given that they killed men because of a negligible chance they may be the dragon, wouldn't they have killed women for the same reason? wouldn't the black ajah also try to kill girls with the right age and the spark?

Not necessarily.

Did you forget the whole plotline where they were forcing characters to the shadow with a circle of 13?

The Black Ajah could groom women in the tower, and convert them.

If they found wilders, they could feed them to the white cloaks.

27 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

the best chance i see to stop this train of thought is if the black ajah has access to dark prophecies explicitly mentioning the male business

This is also a possibility.
We don't know everything the characters in the TV show knows. Once we have more information, we can really determine how much gender essentialism has been retained against conforming to gender neutrality. With the information we have right now, it's possible for both to exist because Moiraine is an "unreliable narrator".

We don't know if they've kept Saidar and Saidin.

This alone would be a major change to the nature of WoT. The removal of which, would make it harder to explain why the taint only affects men. (Unless of course, modern Aes Sedia somehow don't understand the two halves of the power, and are really ignorant, and Saidar/Saidin still exist as Rand learns about it)

Allowing characters (viewers) to see weaves is a change that is necessary for television, but removing both halves of the power? Removing the 5 elements that they thread? I won't like that.
I'll still watch it, I may still enjoy it. It'll still be the Wheel of Time the TV series, it'll just be lower on the accurate adaptation lists.

Arthellion · November 4, 2021

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Just as you're trying to diminish other's who are claiming this isn't a big deal?

I've been consistent that it's possible with the information we have now, that RJ's gender essentialism can be intact, while including more unreliable narrators.

Not at all. You're welcome to say it's not a big deal to you.

And Moraine is not allowed to be an unreliable narrator on this facet. This would be like Gandalf not being sure if Sauron was a bad guy or not. Maybe she's unreliable but if she is it fundamentally alters Moraine's character and her competency ceteris paribus .

The goalposts keep moving and it's weird.

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Every few years, we get people on Dragonmount that jump on a soap box, getting mad over the unjust treatment of males in the wheel of time universe, and how they hate all the women in the series.

Not a single one of them, has ever taken a step back and thought "Huh, being treated like shit based on my gender really sucks. Is this what it's like for women in our society?".

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? Yes. Part of RJ's story is to show that.

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Same. Which is why minor changes like these, which can be explained away aren't a problem. Major changes like Egwene actually being the Dragon, or Perrin becoming a bear brother are far more concerning to me. Hell, I hope they don't get rid of his golden eyes!

This isn't a minor change to me though. You say it can be explained away? Sure, but I don't see how you can explain these things away without undermining key tensions and themes in the series. Sure you can make it make sense, but you sacrifice key tensions that I found important when I read the series.

And honestly Perrin becoming a bear brother wouldn't be a huge change. Just replace the wolves with bears. Good to go right? It doesn't change the narrative at all, just changes the animal.

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

. With the information we have right now, it's possible for both to exist because Moiraine is an "unreliable narrator".

This is not how movie/tv trailers work. Moraine is breaking the fourth wall. Her words are to be taken as true unless stated otherwise and we've seen nothing to indicate that it's not untrue. Until she proves herself to be an unreliable narrator, we have to assume she's speaking fact.

And if you're right, then this undermines her character's competence. Or it changes the world entirely.

SinisterDeath · November 4, 2021

4 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Not at all. You're welcome to say it's not a big deal to you.

And Moraine is not allowed to be an unreliable narrator on this facet. This would be like Gandalf not being sure if Sauron was a bad guy or not. Maybe she's unreliable but if she is it fundamentally alters Moraine's character and her competency ceteris paribus .

The goalposts keep moving and it's weird

Gandalf thought Saruman was a good guy. Yet he was wrong about that.
Moiraine was wrong about a lot of things regarding the one power, just like most Aes Sedai. Hell, remember how Nynaeve didn't trust Moiraine?

I'm not saying we as viewers need to believe Moiraine is "untrustworthy", I'm talking about an unreliable narrator in the terms that they think they know the truth of things, but they really don't. They are repeating a lie to the audience that they fully believe is the truth.

9 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? Yes. Part of RJ's story is to show that.

Read that in connection to this.

1 hour ago, Arthellion said:

Either way, I get that it's not something you find vital to the story, but for many of us, it was.

Readers take to heart different things they find "vital" to the series.

In the example I gave, some readers were appalled over the injustice of the way men are treated in the series, and use this to further justify their hatred of feminists.

12 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

This isn't a minor change to me though. You say it can be explained away? Sure, but I don't see how you can explain these things away without undermining key tensions and themes in the series. Sure you can make it make sense, but you sacrifice key tensions that I found important when I read the series.

For you.
I've explained how they could enhance tensions using this.

I've explained how the fundamental themes could be intact below the surface, and the people are working on incomplete information.

What you worry about, what I explain away is speculation.

Your worries, highlight how this adaptation is unfaithful.

My explanations highlight how the adaptation can remain faithful with the changes.

Pessimism vs Optimism.

17 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

And honestly Perrin becoming a bear brother wouldn't be a huge change. Just replace the wolves with bears. Good to go right? It doesn't change the narrative at all, just changes the animal.

True, I still wouldn't like it. Yet, here you went and explained away how something I find major, is minor to you. ?

Btw, this was actually something they discussed in the writers room to distance themselves from GoT & Bran.... and for those of you who are against anything "woke". Making Perrin a "bear brother" is lowkey racist.

19 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

This is not how movie/tv trailers work. Moraine is breaking the fourth wall. Her words are to be taken as true unless stated otherwise and we've seen nothing to indicate that it's not untrue. Until she proves herself to be an unreliable narrator, we have to assume she's speaking fact.

And if you're right, then this undermines her character's competence. Or it changes the world entirely.

Deadpool & Harley Quin break the fourth wall all the time. I still don't believe what they're saying is the truth.

What the Narrator says, is something they believe is true.

And.. It doesn't change the entire world. It's one of the fundamental themes running through out the wheel of time... That the people in the know, those in power, think they know everything. They think they know what can and can't be done... and they're very often wrong. Stubbornly so.

Beidomon · November 4, 2021

20 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

The goalposts keep moving and it's weird.

The goalposts keep moving, indeed. But I don't find it weird. It's very predictable and kinda funny to watch.

Maximillion · November 4, 2021

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

The goalposts keep moving, indeed. But I don't find it weird. It's very predictable and kinda funny to watch.

I dread to think what else they are going to change and/or introduce into the story.

/shudder. We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg of a potential catastrophic mess for WoT fans.

And yes, unfortunately it was predictable.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

DaddyFinn · November 4, 2021

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg of a potential catastrophic mess for WoT fans.

Or the tip of the iceberg of an amazing TV adaptation of a beloved book series.

Maximillion · November 4, 2021

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or the tip of the iceberg of an amazing TV adaptation of a beloved book series.

For some that enjoy the woke lecturing of modern day society, yes it will be great I would guess and fair play if that is acceptable to you or anyone else. That is your choice and have no problem with that... but it's loosely based on RJs story - not his story.

My regret is that RJs actual story is now unlikely to ever be seen on film/TV.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

Ryan al'Thor · November 4, 2021

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

I dread to think what else they are going to change and/or introduce into the story.

/shudder. We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg of a potential catastrophic mess for WoT fans.

And yes, unfortunately it was predictable.

I think the writing is on the wall unfortunately. This is feeling like fan fiction. Really hope I’m wrong.

DaddyFinn · November 4, 2021

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

For some that enjoy the woke lecturing of modern day society, yes it will be great I would guess and fair play if that is acceptable to you or anyone else. That is your choice and have no problem with that... but it's loosely based on RJs story - not his story.

My regret is that RJs actual story is now unlikely to ever be seen on film/TV.

Obviously you have some inside knowledge of the show to be able to tell all that with such certainty. The rest of us will have to wait and see for ourselves.

TheDreadReader · November 4, 2021

Personally, I think Moiraine's words are her speaking out of her knowledge and experience about her own experience. Experiences can be deceiving. That seems to be a big theme in the books especially from those in positions of power. Ultimately, I don't see it changing much at all.

All the textual clues from the material seem to point to them not changing anything so fundamental. Trying to continue to argue the point from extra-textual sources seems to rely on a lot of facts not in evidence.

This may be highly speculative but I think there is the possibility that they took the temperature of the fan base, realized that they might have a brewing problem, and released this clip early to get the drama out of the way so it doesn't overshadow release day. Maybe that is too tin foil hat though. ?

Daniel Hendricks · November 4, 2021

1) The Amazon Prime show entry shows "Starring: Pike, Henney, & Stadowski" "Supporting actors: -pretty much everyone else-" It's not hard to see that Rand is going to be the dragon.

2) This versions clearly has Whitecloaks as an actual threat to Aes Sedai. Moiraine knows Egwene and Ny'naeve can channel, so would want to keep them safe with her.

3) "One of these five can save us" is just as true as waving at the whole town and going "One of these 300 or so can save us", except that "one of these five" gives Moiraine an excuse to take both the three boys she suspects and the two channelers she wants to recruit/protect.

TheMountain · November 4, 2021

47 minutes ago, Daniel Hendricks said:

3) "One of these five can save us" is just as true as waving at the whole town and going "One of these 300 or so can save us", except that "one of these five" gives Moiraine an excuse to take both the three boys she suspects and the two channelers she wants to recruit/protect.

I'm somewhat exhausted with countering this particular argument, but in fairness to you I don't expect you to dig through the pages and pages of posts about this either lol.. The point is that even if what Moraine is saying is an "Aes Sedai truth," it doesn't really make sense as one. I can say "the sky is either pink or blue," but it doesn't make sense to say it because nobody will be fooled by something that is so clearly wrong. The Dragon Reborn is male, and everybody from the lowest backwater farmer to the highest king knows this. Changes to this fact would, in many of our views, have huge ramifications to the lore and worldbuilding. #1 falls along the same line, none of us yet are seriously concerned about somebody other than Rand being the DR.

Edited November 4, 2021 by TheMountain

Arthellion · November 4, 2021

5 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I'm somewhat exhausted with countering this particular argument, but in fairness to you I don't expect you to dig through the pages and pages of posts about this either lol.. The point is that even if what Moraine is saying is an "Aes Sedai truth," it doesn't really make sense as one. I can say "the sky is either pink or blue," but it doesn't make sense to say it because nobody will be fooled by something that is so clearly wrong. The Dragon Reborn is male, and everybody from the lowest backwater farmer to the highest king knows this. Changes to this fact would, in many of our views, have huge ramifications to the lore and worldbuilding. #1 falls along the same line, none of us yet are seriously concerned about somebody other than Rand being the DR.

Calling it now.

Bela is the DR.

TheMountain · November 4, 2021

2 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Calling it now.

Bela is the DR.

If we're changing the story to open up to the possibility of souls being put into the wrong bodies by the Creator now, I suppose this makes sense too.

Imagine how screwed everyone is going to be when they realize that the Dragon has been reborn as a horse ?

Ralph · November 4, 2021

What do horses channel?

Arthellion · November 4, 2021

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What do horses channel?

The Spirit of Freddie Mercury

Ralph · November 4, 2021

1 minute ago, Arthellion said:

The Spirit of Freddie Mercury

Pure spirit?

SinisterDeath · November 4, 2021

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What do horses channel?

Bela doesn't need to channel. All she needs to do is will something to happen, and it happens.
Like that time she kept pace with Mandarb for no good reason. ?

Rand learned his pipe trick from Bela.

Ralph · November 4, 2021

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

Bela doesn't need to channel. All she needs to do is will something to happen, and it happens.
Like that time she kept pace with Mandarb for no good reason. ?

That means she's already after the epilogue!

TheMountain · November 4, 2021

Hey, Marvel already set a precedent for this with Alligator Loki

Maximillion · November 4, 2021

46 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Calling it now.

Bela is the DR.

Lol, may as well be.

?

Daniel Hendricks · November 4, 2021

1 hour ago, TheMountain said:

The Dragon Reborn is male, and everybody from the lowest backwater farmer to the highest king knows this.

Do they though? Because, if they do, then Tam Al'thor (who found a baby born to a warrior maiden on the slopes of the Dragonmount and then took it home to be raised by the old blood) is one of the dumbest people in fantasy for being surprised that something funky might be up with his son. I think that, given how shocked the boys are that an Aes Sedai looks like a regular person and not some sort of monster, what "everybody knows" may not be so cut and dried.

Surely scholars and gleemen would know, but random peasant probably isn't that into it.

A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

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