A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I'm not invested in any other book series than WoT so can't say anything about that. Probably most of them suck.

 

True but there are some amazingly done ones and some that are passable.  Gonna differ between people because that stuff is all subjective.

 

Still hoping for LotR or The Expanse rather than The Last Airbender.  But even with those examples there is a big gap that it could land in. 

 

And then there are still people around who consider LotR to be a bad adaptation.

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

I've already shared in the above. You're losing the tension of men not being trusted. You're losing the discrimination that Rand has to overcome. You lose the unique reasons why men are not trusted.

 

Those things could still exist for sure....but the reason they exist loses it's punch. 

 

You lose the gender essentialism that plays a key theme throughout the series and that Rand overcomes. 

 

 

 

There is a reason they are playing up Logain for the first season. 

[Arthellion]

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

How is that discrimination lost?

Are male channelers still not to be feared? 

Is a Male Dragon not to be feared?

Do Aes Sedai and Women not put forward that Males destroyed the world?

The exclusivity matters.

 

the fact that it can only be a male who is the dragon reborn matters.

 

that only a man can bring about the end of the world is a higher level than just the same the points you lost above.

rge things you list are scary but manageable. It happened in the past or AES Sedai can handle it now. 
 

But the Dragon. A harbinger of fate destined to bring about the end is another level 

 

that is what is lost when you remove that exclusivity

 

you remove the element of gender essentialism that it is a man who will end the world 

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

that only a man can bring about the end of the world is a higher level than just the same the points you lost above.

Does it really? I don't think it does, you think it does. So who's right?

 

Tell you what.

 

What's worse.

Telling someone they have stage 4 cancer.

Or telling someone they have stage 4 cancer, and we think we found the cure, only wait, the cure didn't work and now you're still going to die after having your hope obliterated?

[king of nowhere]

On the bright side, it took us 10 seconds to spot the inconsistencies with the lore of naming the dragon possibly a woman. if we saw it, someone else saw it; I can't think brandon would pass on something like that.

and if they saw it, they will try to fix the lore. as argued, it can be done without too critical changes. so, there is a good chance they will adapt the lore in a way that closes any major plot hole.

37 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

What about Hollywood's history of adaptations has ever given you that faith?

LoTR is the first big adaptation that comes to mind, and it was a great movie. I also very much enjoied the witcher and I am looking forward to season 2. And I also liked the last Dune.

And it's not my cup of tea, but everyone agrees GoT was a great adaptation, before the last seasons went off rails.

And I'm not into superheroes, but the marvel cinematic universe was ludicrously successful.

all this gives me faith that the movie industry can tell a good story with an adaptation, as long as one is not too nitpicky with adherence to the original

 

 

 

 

[Arthellion]

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Does it really? I don't think it does, you think it does. So who's right?

 

Tell you what.

 

What's worse.

Telling someone they have stage 4 cancer.

Or telling someone they have stage 4 cancer, and we think we found the cure, only wait, the cure didn't work and now you're still going to die after having your hope obliterated?

Because it matters to Rand and male characters.

 

and their character growth. It’s a source of their chafing against the females. 
 

it’s an underlying tension.  

[Rose]

3 hours ago, Arthellion said:

Yes changing the wording of the prophesies is changing the lore, but the lore isn't limited to the prophesies. There is the whole worldview of the people to be considered.

 

No offense but I think we pulled different tensions out of the text of the books. To me the chief tension early on was that "The Dragon Reborn will be a male" therefore, all men are viewed with some measure of suspicion. Men are, ultimately, not to be trusted and women must rule. 

 

Without the Dragon Reborn being male, it lessens the weight of that mistrust. It weakens the gender divide that exists. 

 

Even if the people of  the world don't know all the metaphysics, there is a sense across pretty much all of the world that men are dangerous and untrustworthy. Even good men like Tam have to submit to the "Wisdom" of women. 

 

You say it adds more tension over "whether it will be male or female" and I do agree it can add to that. I can definitely see where it heightens the drama and if executed well could be an okay change. 

 

My concern is that by going that route, it lessens the the systemic and cultural fear/discrimination that men face in WOT. 

 

Men aren't mistrusted solely because the DR will be a man. Men are also (and mostly) mistrusted because all men who channel go mad. It's been confirmed in promotional materials that men going mad from the taint (oops, sorry, the "corruption" ?) is still a thing in the series, so the basis for men being mistrusted in the world still exists.

 

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I'd imagine at least 1 Aes Sedai in 3000 years would have examined Callandor and realized, hey, I can't use this thing, must be made for a dude. That's my issue with it. Also no female false dragon was ever mentioned so they'd probably have to introduce that as well.

 

 

Moiraine did, thats the point. I don't recall if she was special for having visited the eye of the world or not but either way, plot hole or editing.

 

 

I mean sure the Aes Sedai as a whole don't come off as overly bright (which lets be honest isn't necessarily a good thing, funny as it may be at times). But there is a difference between dumb, and utterly and completely unaware of that presumably very scary person who's gonna show up and maybe, probably, who knows, gonna blow up the world and maybe save it along the way.

 

Don't get me wrong this doesn't prevent the show from being succeful in any way. It doesn't make for a bad story that they don't know whether the DR will be male or female. It just causes a lot of inconsistency with regards to what's in the books. And thats somewhat inevitable when translation books to television since you simply can't keep everything as it is. I'm just worried that they're either gonna change so much that it won't be believable, or not enough and end up with big plot holes.

 

Hopefully they ace it. But unecessary changes worry me.

 

Yeah, I agree that they will have to edit a number things to avoid plot holes. I think it can be done, but we'll see how well they pull it off. I would especially be interested in seeing if there are now also women false Dragons and how those play out (are they wilders? I'm assuming the Tower wouldn't let any Aes Sedai just up and proclaim herself the Dragon).

Edited November 3, 2021 by Rose

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

. I would especially be interesred in seeing if there are now also women false Dragons and how those play out (are they wilders? I'm assuming the Tower wouldn't let any Aes Sedai just up and proclaim herself the Dragon).

 

 

 

 

Looking forward to some women being mentioned in Ishamael's list of people manipulated by the Tower

[Arthellion]

3 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Men aren't mistrusted solely because the DR will be a man. Men are also (and mostly) mistrusted because all men who channel go mad. It's been confirmed in promotional materials that men going mad from the taint (oops, sorry, the "corruption" ?) is still a thing in the series, so the basis for men being mistrusted in the world still exists.

 

 

Yeah, I agree that they will have to edit a number things to avoid plot holes. I think it can be done, but we'll see how well they pull it off. I would especially be interesred in seeing if there are now also women false Dragons and how those play out (are they wilders? I'm assuming the Tower wouldn't let any Aes Sedai just up and proclaim herself the Dragon).

 

 

 

 

So just to clarify, I’m not saying being DR is the sole reason, but it not being there lessens the weight of this.

 

There is level of magnitude here that gets lost.

[Rose]

We also don't know for sure what "the Dragon could be reborn as a woman" means.

 

Option 1: The soul is genderless and can take on a different gender at each rebirth. So the DR could channel saidin or saidar depending on which gender they end up with.

 

This is what I've been thinking so far, and like @SinisterDeath has been saying, I think it would add some interesting tension because we don't know if we'll get a mad savior who's just as likely to destroy us, or a sane one who's more likely to save us.

 

But there's also another option which I hadn't really thought about yet:

 

Option 2: The DR is always a male soul, but he could be reborn into a female body. This would make the Dragon a trans man who channels saidin but appears to be female to outside observers who don't realize he's actually a man.

 

This has some interesting implications for the inclusion of trans people in the world of WoT. I saw someone (can't remember who, sorry) ask where all the (people who appear to be) women who channel saidin are, and vice versa. Presumably, it would be an infrequent occurence, but still possible, just like it's possible in our world for people to be trans, but it's a small fraction of the population. So every once in a while you'd come across a trans channeler who doesn't channel the half of the Power you'd expect if they're closeted and you don't know their true gender.

 

But if this is the case, it might also actually make it a lot easier for people in-world to accept that trans people exist and are the gender they say they are, because there's a very obvious and tangible way of knowing someone's gender even if it doesn't match their biological sex.

 

Picture: an Aes Sedai sees someone who appears to be a man, but who can channel saidar. The Aes Sedai immediately realizes this means she was mistaken. It's not a man. It's a trans woman. No big deal.

 

So maybe being trans would be better understood and more accepted than it is in our world, and it would lead to less trans people being closeted and more trans people feeling comfortable to live openly as their true gender. Which imo is pretty cool.

 

(Just to clarify: None of this means they're changing who the DR is. The DR is Rand. I'm just speculating about possible implications for the lore and world)

 

ETA: there's also option 3 which is being discussed in the other thread on the new clip: The Dragon is always male and Aes Sedai aren't thinking about the possibility of him being trans. They're just too full of themselves to imagine a man saving the world, so they decide it must mean the Dragon can be a woman sometimes. Lol. I would love to have some explicit "trans people exist in this world" lore but I also love this third theory.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Rose

[Rose]

22 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

So just to clarify, I’m not saying being DR is the sole reason, but it not being there lessens the weight of this.

 

There is level of magnitude here that gets lost.

 

I didn't get the impression from the books that the DR added that much extra weight (male channelers going mad seemed weighty enough). There is definitely *some* added weight, it just seems to me like a small portion of the total weight if that makes sense lol. But this probably comes down to different interpretations of the source material, so I understand you feel differently.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Rose

[Kudzu]

The latest drop changes things a bit, but I can guarantee you, Moiraine will never say in the show "it's one of the five of you" in the context of being the Dragon Reborn. I'm pretty certain that exact line won't be in the show at all. She does say "the four of you", but in rather different context to what seems to be generally accepted.

 

Based on reports of the clips shown at MCM, this is how that scene actually plays out:

 

Moiraine: "The Dark One is waking. His Whispers are already in the backs of our minds, but there will be one who can stand against him. The Dragon has been born again, that's why I'm here."

Mat: "Have you fully lost your mind?"

... The bit from the trailer where they see the Trollocs coming down the Mountain ...

Moiraine: "Get the horses"

Egwene: "What? You can't leave!"

Moiraine: "You're going with me, the four of you. Your life isn't going to be what you thought." ...

 

Not sure if I'm allowed to link it here, but you can hear it for yourself on "Wheel of Time Theory's" break down video of the MCM clips on YouTube.

 

Admittedly, the "5 of you" line could be from elsewhere in the show. But considering the rest of the dialogue surrounding that line is in the clip, I kind of doubt it. More likely it's just a dub for the trailer. It is also possible the clip shown at MCM is different to the final cut, but I think it's more likely to be accurate than the trailer.

 

As to the latest drop and Moiraine saying they don't know if the baby was a boy or a girl. There are a number of possibilities for the way this could play out. Firstly it could be a dub that won't appear or play out in the show at all. Alternately it could still be the general belief among the population that the Dragon will be a man, but Moiraine who has studied and thought on this far more than most has some doubts. She may still think it's most likely going to be a man. That would change very little as compared to the books. It could also of course mean there is a general belief the Dragon could be a girl, I won't really like that, but I pretty much agree with what SinisterDeath is saying, it doesn't really change the main thrust of the story very much.

 

The Dragon Reborn is 100% going to be Rand, no doubt, none. Firstly because it would be bonkers to do anything else. But also Josha is listed as a main star above all the other EF5 and the hidden weave layer in the posters has him front and centre. In the cast interviews on IGN both Barney and Marcus compare there characters to Rand implying he is the central character.

 

BTW, hi. Don't think I've posted here for about 10 years.

[Deadsy]

18 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

The Dragon Reborn is 100% going to be Rand, no doubt, none. Firstly because it would be bonkers to do anything else. But also Josha is listed as a main star above all the other EF5 and the hidden weave layer in the posters has him front and centre.

 

 

And he's in an egg shaped weave. As in a dragon's egg.

[swollymammoth]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Does it really? I don't think it does, you think it does. So who's right?

I'm right. 

 

The gender essentialism makes us think, "What is WoT trying to say by making TDR exclusively male?" 

 

You can have a field day with this. For one, it points to the Jungian archetypes of masculine/feminine that RJ seems to have been drawing on when writing such a heavily gendered work as WoT. It comments on the masculine nature as one haunted by the potential for intense violence and harm which is countered by the potential for good which could be accomplished should those tendencies be properly channeled (pun intended). 

 

WoT is rich when understood on the symbolic level, and blurring the gender lines takes away from this because so much of what it has to say is specifically commenting on the paradoxical incongruity yet essential partnership of the masculine and feminine. 

 

It's old-fashioned thinking, sure, but it is a huge part of the WoT. 

[Elder_Haman]

The one day I have to be buried in work...

I'm bummed by this, tbh. It does feel like an unnecessary deviation. It's probably meant to keep the people unfamiliar with the books (who will, no doubt, be a sizeable majority of viewers) speculating about Egwene as a Dragon candidate.

 

@SinisterDeath, I have to disagree that this changes none of the lore. Gitara Moroso's prophecy is clearly gendered in the books. And since Moiraine was present when Gitara spoke that prophecy, her foundational knowledge is being changed as well. Her search was predicated on the finding of male babies of a certain age.

 

Altering the pronouns of Gitara's prophecy isn't a huge deal, I suppose. And as you ably demonstrated above, none of the other core prophecies are gendered. I don't believe the Aes Sedai were ever able to properly study Callandor, and since it's still clear to me that Rand is the Dragon, that point is moot anyway.

 

It remains to be seen how effective they are in pulling this off. Was the change worth it? They had to know it wouldn't sit well with purists, so there has to be some long term goal in mind. I suppose that relates too how long they will keep the "mystery" of the Dragon's identity alive and how they will play the ultimate reveal.

 

I generally have trust that they will pull off a coherent narrative that really doesn't change anything. And I understand the marketing rationale. Still, this feels like a bit of an unforced error.  

[Deadsy]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The one day I have to be buried in work...

I'm bummed by this, tbh. It does feel like an unnecessary deviation. It's probably meant to keep the people unfamiliar with the books (who will, no doubt, be a sizeable majority of viewers) speculating about Egwene as a Dragon candidate.

 

@SinisterDeath, I have to disagree that this changes none of the lore. Gitara Moroso's prophecy is clearly gendered in the books. And since Moiraine was present when Gitara spoke that prophecy, her foundational knowledge is being changed as well. Her search was predicated on the finding of male babies of a certain age.

 

Altering the pronouns of Gitara's prophecy isn't a huge deal, I suppose. And as you ably demonstrated above, none of the other core prophecies are gendered. I don't believe the Aes Sedai were ever able to properly study Callandor, and since it's still clear to me that Rand is the Dragon, that point is moot anyway.

 

It remains to be seen how effective they are in pulling this off. Was the change worth it? They had to know it wouldn't sit well with purists, so there has to be some long term goal in mind. I suppose that relates too how long they will keep the "mystery" of the Dragon's identity alive and how they will play the ultimate reveal.

 

I generally have trust that they will pull off a coherent narrative that really doesn't change anything. And I understand the marketing rationale. Still, this feels like a bit of an unforced error.  

 

 

We'll never know if it was necessary. Their goal is to make a commercially successful TV show, and I doubt they made this change just because they thought it'd be fun. I don't think someone who's read the book dozens of times is dumb enough to not have thought through all the repercussions and story changes that would have to occur with this change, before deciding to do it. I happen to think it's a minor detail that will be long forgotten by the time season 2 starts.

[swollymammoth]

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

And if they aren't..... well you just don't watch the show and move on with your life.

It'll just be sad when I talk to people about WoT and they say, "WoT. Yeah, I watched a few episodes and it was kinda lame," and then someone who might have enjoyed the books ends up missing out on them entirely. 

 

These are powerful, masterful books which have touched the lives of millions, and it's just going to be a shame if the predominant concept of "The Wheel of Time" in the public consciousness shifts from being, "That long book series that I've heard is actually awesome" to "that show that sucked." 

[swollymammoth]

23 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Lets see....

Straw Mans, Ad Hominems, Moving the Goal Posts, and no true scottsman, are you aiming for the Troll Leaderboards?

My previous post was unfair, so I got rid of it and I apologize. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by swollymammoth

[swollymammoth]

10 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Sit back, watch it, and enjoy the show. Don't like it? Watch something else. 
 

Don't go looking for a political "woke" agenda between the lines.

I would definitely push back on this. 

 

First, this is our one shot. If this show fails, if it's bad, that's it. There's no second $10 million an episode WoT adaptation coming down the pipeline. This is all we've got. Yeah, it's not human lives or anything, but the stakes are pretty high. WoT means a lot to a ton of people. As a teenager, it was formative in my the development of my identity, and I don't think I'm alone. To see it poorly done would be very sad. And then, yes, I would go watch something else, but I would so, so, soooo much rather be watching a good WoT show. 

 

As to your second point, I doubt I'm the only person here with a degree in English, but my experience is that the writers in my classes were being taught and encouraged to inject a woke agenda into their writing. Everything we read was analyzed through post-modern, feminist, and Marxist lenses, and even now I'm trying to break the habits that that education instilled in me when it comes to writing my own stories. The writers on this show have the same education in storytelling that I got, and it tends to approach stories from a certain perspective. 

 

Not to mention that these days you can look to just about any blockbuster and the creators are shouting their movies wokeness from the rooftops, how they're proud that their stories are vehicles for their politics. Ex. Black Widow, Captain Marvel, Birds of Prey, Shang-Chi, Eternals, No Time to Die, and that's just off the top of my head. 

 

I'm just saying that this seems to be the prevailing attitude in showbiz rn. 

[DaddyFinn]

Rafe&Co. have my complete trust until they prove not to be trustworthy.

[Morani]

8 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

 

Not to mention that these days you can look to just about any blockbuster and the creators are shouting their movies wokeness from the rooftops, how they're proud that their stories are vehicles for their politics. Ex. Black Widow, Captain Marvel, Birds of Prey, Shang-Chi, Eternals, No Time to Die, and that's just off the top of my head. 

 

I'm just saying that this seems to be the prevailing attitude in showbiz rn. 

 

Everyone writes what they know. Seeing as there are some female and LGBTQ people that are finally let into the writing business, a lot more stories will have that perspective.

 

For every movie that you mentioned (and btw, what were "woke" about these movies, I am genuinely curious, please give me examples) we still have twenty big budget movies being released who were not "woke" in the slightest, but told the same old perspectives that we are used to, and that would never pass the bechdel test. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Morani

[Tim]

I hope we’re not just lambasting any superhero film featuring a superhero who is not a white dude as “woke” at this point.

 

I’ve made this point before, but I am far more worried that the show will just be badly written and acted and clunky and unpersuasive than I am that it will deviate too far from the books. The former seems the much greater risk to me, and the more grave. 

 

(To be clear, i’m not saying the show has to deviate from the books to be good)

 

The implication from a lot of posts here is that many people wouldn’t care if the show was awful so long as it was faithful to their head canon. Which is kind of depressing to be honest.

[king of nowhere]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

@SinisterDeath, I have to disagree that this changes none of the lore. Gitara Moroso's prophecy is clearly gendered in the books. And since Moiraine was present when Gitara spoke that prophecy, her foundational knowledge is being changed as well. Her search was predicated on the finding of male babies of a certain age.

 

Altering the pronouns of Gitara's prophecy isn't a huge deal, I suppose. And as you ably demonstrated above, none of the other core prophecies are gendered. I don't believe the Aes Sedai were ever able to properly study Callandor, and since it's still clear to me that Rand is the Dragon, that point is moot anyway.

 

there are more repercussions.

the black ajah was looking for the dragon and trying to kill him; they killed hundreds of "lucky" men because they were hoping one of them was lucky because he was channeling. if they didn't knew the dragon was a boy, that manhunt makes a lot less sense.

I'm sure there are other repercussions too.

 

it can be handled well. i'm definitely not happy they did this, but it can be well done and it doesn't have to be a major disaster.

[MasterAblar]

It obviously doesn’t prevent the show from being good in any way. I’m just really interested in knowing what the reason behind the change is considering the important ramifications on the lore, even if the changes to the plot are probably minimal especially past the first few episodes.

[Beidomon]

As somebody who "only" checks in here every couple of days, it's equal parts fascinating and hilarious watching the forum groupthink bend and weave to justify the escalating cascade of WOTTV wokisms. It's almost like a sociological experiment. Just for those keeping score at home, we started with "eh, there's no indication they're going to mess with the core story" and then it was "eh, that was just Aes Sedai wordplay - the lore hasn't changed" and now we're at "eh, so what if they change the lore - Rand's still going to be the Dragon."

 

My prediction of what's going to happen next: Some "insider" is going to be interviewed saying something along the lines of "we don't actually know yet who the Dragon is going to be." Think how exciting that would be for this new woke audience! We could have Teams! Team Rand! Team Perrin! Team Egwene! And I almost hope this prediction comes to pass, because it will be amazing watching the forum groupthink shift again to justify as necessary.

 

Honest to goodness, folks, there was more outrage on this forum about the location of the ruby on Mat's dagger, or TM playing a guitar instead of a harp, than changing the gender dichotomy and lore underpinning the whole freaking series. Let that sink in for a minute.

 

The problem, as @Arthellion has perfectly explained (and get that dude some body bags - 'cuz holy cow he's been racking them up the last couple of days), is that this change in the lore is a MASSIVE deviation from the gender dichotomy underpinning the series. For example, one of the things that always made the Reds' raison d'etre to gentle men who can channel so amazingly crazy is - what if you gentle the Real Dragon?! Eh, not so much of a problem now - the Dragon could be a lady. The Dragon is gonna have to channel tainted Saidin?! Eh, maybe not - the Dragon could be a gurl.

 

Now, in addition to @Arthellion, I want to give a special shout out to @Elder_Haman, who has been one of WOTTV's biggest defenders, but at least has the intellectual consistency to acknowledge that this crap is getting out of hand.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Beidomon