Which Forsaken make the cut?

[Pandemonium]

3 forsaken appeares in Eye of the World.  How many will appear in Season 1?

 

Do you think this show will use 13 forsaken or is that too many to fit in an 8 seasons arc?

 

Which Forsaken would be most likely to get cut?

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

Just speculation but I would expect to see forsaken that we don't know are forsaken (yet) like Lanfear, Masaana, etc?

 

Maybe we see Ishy in some fashion but I don't think that we see the other two forsaken at the eye of the world.

 

[DaddyFinn]

 

I'd rather not cut anyone since number 13 you know. Just make them better and more efficient villains.

[Pandemonium]

I am going to try to rank them in tiers from most important to least important.  If they do cuts they can probably cut the least important ones. Obviously just my opinion here!  Lots of spoilers below

 

Most important 

Ishamael 

 

Lanfear

 

Demandred

 

Asmodean -someone has to teach Rand right?)

 

Semirhage- putting top tier since she helped create Dark Rand

 

Mid level importance 

 

Graendal .  we need her orgy caravan and massive cleavage infused hedonism to spice the show.

 

Aginor -only in mid tier because he created the shadowspawn.  please no dashiva.

 

Rahvin - honestly feel like his role could be cut or combined with Sammael.  He didn't really do alot and how many imperial ruler forsaken do we really need?

 

Moghedien-  She teaches the girls lots of stuff and is a great rival with Nynaeve.  She is needed to help Nynaeve remove her block.  Lots of Moghedien scenes are somewhat redundant though and can be trimmed.

 

Sammael-  he is involved in the Battle of Cairhienen which I really hope doesn't get cut from the show.  Otherwise he didn't do too much.  He caused chaos with the Shaido but I really hope they cut all that Shaido rescue stuff out of the show.  Otherwise he didn't do alot on screen.  this scene in shadar Logoth was very anticlimactic.  We didn't even know he was dead until RJ told us that Mashadar got him in a Q&A.  I think Sammael could be combined with Rahvin or another forsaken for better effect.  

 

 

 

Least important 

 

Mesaana -She didn't really do too much in the books that couldn't be duplicated by the black ajah.  anyone can let more workers in the white tower for a coup.  

 

Belal- he was in the books for like 2 minutes.  his role could be duplicated by ishamael and the black ajah

 

Balthamal-  most worthless forsaken.  do we really want Halima?

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Pandemonium

[Rose]

I was trying to remember all the forsaken off the top of my head and could not for the life of me figure out who the 13th one was.

 

Belal. It was Belal. I don't even remember what he did in the books.

 

I kind of hope they still keep 13 for the symbolism, and possibly give them different roles. Not sure it's realistic when they need to cut a lot of stuff though.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

I kind of hope they still keep 13 for the symbolism, and possibly give them different roles. Not sure it's realistic when they need to cut a lot of stuff though

I think they can keep the symbolism of 13 (circle of 13, 13 fades, etc.) and still cut down the Forsaken to a more manageable number. 

[Rose]

 

22 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think they can keep the symbolism of 13 (circle of 13, 13 fades, etc.) and still cut down the Forsaken to a more manageable number. 

 

Yeah I agree. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[JaimAybara]

Two of them can die in season 1, and the other forsaken that are more important can kill off a few of each other in order to build character development. Boom. Season 2-3 and we have our big baddies moving forward. 

[Guest redgiant]

13 needs to stay. Doesn't matter how deeply developed all of them are or if we even see all 13 ... ever. But they exist and changing that number is just as odd as saying there were 7 Nazgul (who never even had known names or lines - other than a title for a couple, but there was still 9 of them).

This still falls in the "no-brainer" camp of not messing with the Lore of WoT, but we'll see where canon gets us.

[Jaysen Gore]

I'll use this thread, since I had a thought around the TV series and the Forsaken:

 

I'd like to see them create more personal 1v1 conflict between the non-Dragon EF5 and individual Forsaken.  The only pure hatred we get in the books is between Nynaeve and Moghedien, but with a couple of small changes, they could really personalize it:

 

- Instead of the whole Aran'gar / Osan'gar thing - most dead Forsaken stay dead - change Halima to be Mesaana, playing both ends against the middle in the WT conflict. Increases the weight of what happens between her and Egwene

 - Emphasize one of the Forsaken (Sammael?) as holding the Gholam's leash and trying to remove the Dragon's friends from the board. Could then have Mat remove Sammael before Tarmon Gaidon so Demandred has to take over (revenge for Tylin?)

 - The craziest one would be to shift Berelain's role with Perrin to Lanfear, or Graendal . Have Lanfear lose the crazy ex-girlfriend vibe with Rand, in favour of finding a man she thinks she can control and dominate. Or have Graendal be offended that a man isn't choosing her over some slip of a girl with a big nose.

 

Beyond that, as long as they don't bring them back (except maybe Ishy), the role and time on screen for the rest of them is fine.

Ishamael - only one to come back; shows why he wants the wheel smashed, that death and rebirth is not an unalloyed blessing, what it means to be a true servant of the Dark One. Should be 2 different actors.

Aginor and Balthamel show they're loose, and die immediately. 1 episode

Asmodean spends half a season teaching Rand, and gets a knife for his trouble. 4-5 episodes

Rahvin with Morgase in Camelyn, and death at Rand's hand. But might be in 3 episodes over 1-2 seasons.

Be'lal in the Stone.  1 episode

Demandred - aside from a couple of brief cameos, just season 8

Semirhage - shows up with Tuon, pushing the Return and conquest, revealed as Forsaken and dies how and when she does in the books. Maybe the third or fourth most on camera Seanchan

Graendal - perfect in her role; probably first on camera in season 5 or so, no Hesalaam, thank you.

 

That way, you only really need 6-7 of them to be recurring roles. Not all 13. And you keep all the symbolism and terror of "where are they?"

[Wraith235]

the more I think about this ... and the more reader backlash you get ... I think you keep the capstone episodes (EoTW, Horn, Tear etc) as intact as humanly possible .... forsaken and all. 
really the answer to Halima is balefire him at EoTW

your already pushing the limits with these changes ... I dont think it will take much to push people over the edge 

[ArrylT]

While I have no clue how many Forsaken will be kept / cut, I would like to believe that it will be feasible to keep all of them - at least if the acting is solid enough.   No matter what, fairly or unfairly, there is always going to be some comparison to GOT - but in this instance GOT has shown you can have a carousel of cast enter & leave the show and be accepted, provided the character makes sense & is portrayed well.

 

GOT had over 40 people listed as main credits and over 80 as recurring guest (according to wiki) -and that doesnt not include another 70-100 brief cameos - so numbers wise the audience should be able to handle 13 forsaken - provided they can be introduced and portrayed in a way that works.

 

It will be interesting to see how this is played out - will the numbers be trimmed or will they not get re-incarnated (that would be my guess) - once they've died they've died since it has been mentioned several times that souls do not get spun back into the same tapestry (Tam & Illa for example). But then again this is based on what they believe vs what is "fact".     Going to be fun!

[KakitaOCU]

Trying to be reasonable in terms of excess cast and purpose here is my take on the Forsaken

Ishamael: Keep and role unchanged.  He's essentially the Physically present villain and very little he does can be skipped.

Lanfear: Keep and role unchanged.  Maybe drop the death and rebirth in a new body.

Aginor: Keep, info dump on creation of Shadowspawn, death in Eye of the World, skip Osan'Gar, he does nothing that can't be handled straight by Taim but...

Balthamael: Drop, he serves no purpose, he shows up with Aginor and dies.  Aran'gar I think is important but... Make Aginor Aran'gar.  

Bel'al: Honestly, drop him, role his Tear Lord persona into Ishamael.

Asmodean: Keep and role unchanged.

Demandred:  Honestly, I'd keep the Taimendred thing that RJ changed to avoid "Being obvious" or whatever reason he had.  Shara is a whole extra can of worms that has no real purpose other than to be a bad guy army.

Graendal: Drop entirely.  She does nothing until her interactions with Perrin, those interactions can be handled by...

Moghedien: Keep unchanged for the most part.  In the books she disappears for a while to no purpose, put her in Graendal's roles.

Rahvin: Drop entirely but..

Sammael: Keep but have him invade and take Andor leading to serving Rahvin's death in the plot.

Messana: Keep and role unchanged

 

Semirahage: Keep and role unchanged.

 

[Sabio]

I really would like to see how they kill Asmo, I mean RJ would never say exactly how Asmo dies.  I wonder if the show would kill him in the same way or a different way.  I hope they don't do the annoying fade to black as he dies so you only hear him dying.

 

Must haves are Ishy, Lanfear, Moghi (since she is so tied to Nyn), Demandred, Grenand Asmo.

Maybe quick appearences by Rhavin, Semi, Sam, Mes, Aginor and Balthamel  to die off.

Be'lal could just be removed and replaced by Ishy.

[mogi68]

4 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Be'lal could just be removed and replaced by Ishy.

 

NO

Power wrought sword duel in the heart of the stone is an epic scene. DO NOT replace Be'lal under any circumstances

 

This is a hill I will die on

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, mogi68 said:

 

NO

Power wrought sword duel in the heart of the stone is an epic scene. DO NOT replace Be'lal under any circumstances

 

This is a hill I will die on

It is, but we can make Ishamael a swordsman and not cast.

I'd personally prefer all forsake exist.  I'm looking at this from a casting standpoint and the budgetary concerns.  As well as fitting it into what looks to be 64 episodes total.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I really would like to see how they kill Asmo, I mean RJ would never say exactly how Asmo dies.  I wonder if the show would kill him in the same way or a different way.  I hope they don't do the annoying fade to black as he dies so you only hear him dying.

 

RJ never said exactly how Asmo died because the fanbase picked up on a few things too fast for his liking and he changed his mind sometime around book 7-9.

The show can handle it differently.

[themann1086]

Let Asmodean live to the Last Battle and redeem himself. "No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again."

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

Let Asmodean live to the Last Battle and redeem himself. "No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again."

I approve this change.

[Sabio]

I would say it would be unlikely a forsaken could ever redeem themselves,  Even Asmo is responsible tens of thousands of deaths, it simply goes against the nature of the people picked to be chosen.

[Sabio]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

RJ never said exactly how Asmo died because the fanbase picked up on a few things too fast for his liking and he changed his mind sometime around book 7-9.

The show can handle it differently.

I just think it would be cool if they did kill Asmo the way RJ had it happen.  All RJ would say when asked if Asmo could be brought back by the DO was no, because of how and where he died.  I think most assumed he just got balefired but the where is the issue.  But it would be nice if the show explained it.  But they most likely won't since it might go too into depth in things they aren't going to explain in the show.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

I just think it would be cool if they did kill Asmo the way RJ had it happen.  All RJ would say when asked if Asmo could be brought back by the DO was no, because of how and where he died.  I think most assumed he just got balefired but the where is the issue.  But it would be nice if the show explained it.  But they most likely won't since it might go too into depth in things they aren't going to explain in the show.

We get the classic book scene of Asmo getting wine, saying "You? No!" the camera immediately switches to Moiraine smoothing her skirts before sipping her wine with a grin on her face. Fade to black.

[Sabio]

Or or or we see Asmo becoming Taim.  Screw Taimadred we have Taimodean.

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Or or or we see Asmo becoming Taim.  Screw Taimadred we have Taimodean.

That's actually not a terrible idea. Combining Asmo and Taim could make a ton of sense. A betrayal by trusted lieutenant Taim who you believed had been redeemed (maybe he convinces Rand that the cleansing turned him from the Dark)... Juicy possibilities there.

[KakitaOCU]

41 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Or or or we see Asmo becoming Taim.  Screw Taimadred we have Taimodean.

Going to second Elder Haman.  Saves casting Taim or dealing with another False Dragon.

Asmodean really seems to go good, Rand starts leaving more and more of the Black Tower to him, Asmodean either never really turned good or tried and backslid for some reason.

Doing that we could also remove Demandred entirely from the plot.  Make Asmodean develop the second fiddle jealousy.  Ends similar to Demandred, raging that some "nobody" doesn't kill him, he's supposed to face Lews Therin!

Edited November 30, 2021 by KakitaOCU