full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Harad the White]

Keerect

[Skipp]

A lot of nitpicking going on in here. 

 

As for the Aes Sedai needing their hands to channel it is well established in the books that if you learn to do a weave using a hand gesture it is very difficult to learn to do it a different way.  This of course doesn't mean that every weave needs hand gestures but many Aes Sedai use them as stated "You could tell which Aes Sedai an Accepted trained under by their hand gestures"

 

2nd note on the burning, we know that intense pain can prevent you from reaching the calm requried to touch the source, kinda like the pain of having both hands cut off. 

 

It is also possible that they will touch on Valda using an abandoned stedding for his burnings.  We'll see what comes in later episodes.

[Harad the White]

Bye bye. In the past there were forums with plus and minus comments, and some even thoughtful comments, and some reasonable back and forth. This forum, and it's probably a sign of the times, is a collection of whiny little complaints from viewers who would rant about Van Gogh's flower fetish. I'm audi.

[Ploodie]

14 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I’ve been reading reddit a bit and the non-readers seem to like it (although these are people taking time out to post about the show). But the other comment I’ve seen a few times is that the anal readers are really obnoxious, complaining about every little insignificant thing that isn’t exactly like the books instead of just enjoying it as a show. 

The reason fans stuck with this dragged out series for over two decades is we liked these characters. I don't expect an adaptation to mirror every single beat, but there's a point where it starts to become unrecognizable. So far, these characters are all interchangeably sullen and one-dimensional. Nothing about the Two Rivers characters feels lived-in. The opening episode should have been two hours and Moraine/Lan shouldn't have appeared at all until about half way in. 

[Agitel]

Deleted. Nevermind.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Agitel

[Katherine]

I think y’all are big harsh on disappointed fans. Many just weren’t ready for the changes. All of us on the forum want this SO BAD. Intense disappointment that this isn’t what any of us hoped it would be is ok. Because we wanted it to be great. Even the most positive comments on the board boil down to “the changes are fine and I have faith it’s going to slow down and get better.” 
 

so this isn’t the product that we wanted. Could it still turn into that ? Yes but changes need to be made.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Katherine

[JaimAybara]

I love cinema and went into this very…apprehensive to say the least. I was pleasantly surprised. Visually A/A- and dialogue character development wise a B-. If they fix some of those issues it is going to be a smash hit. (Also, our bard is better than your bard…bard wars ensue.) I might do a deep dive later or respond to folks who want to challenge my assessment. Overall, I think this has a really good chance of taking off though.  

 

[Deadsy]

Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed

[JaimAybara]

Spoiler

When they first suggested 1 of you 5: got it
Perrin’s wife getting fridged: got it 

Mat’s dad being turned into a dirtbag: got it 

Now…did these changes work? I suppose / maybe, but I still am not a huge fan of a couple... they all create potential issues moving forward. 
 

My detailed review below (some spoilers). 

 

Spoiler

Episode 1: super highlights the women’s circle in good ways, but the village council doesn’t exist…I hate it when one sex is lifted at the expense of the other. This isn’t necessary at all. So we don’t get added time for Tam, Cenn, Bran, or Master Luhan. Or any of the cheeky moments between husbands and wives. All the women fight in that kill circle…the Endgame pose moment. (Facepalm) just show them fighting side by side. When you go out of your way this much it feels so contrived and stupid. At least in the Shadow’s Rising it will hopefully be done in a powerful and intimate way. All the men are made to be submissive or downright criminal. This is a sad take. They said this show was all about balance…not seeing it yet.

 

Spoiler

For the visuals all my expectations were met. Not sure why so many people are dumping on it. I loved the Trollocs, really enjoyed the weaving…albeit there is some rooms for improvement there. A couple editing spots. This really elevated my view and I went in with an axe to grind. 
 

overall…B+ the fight scene really saved it. but the dialogue needs to be improved all around. That weird strawberry scene…just…why? Holy God. Also, be careful with the cascade effect of “minor” changes. 
 

Episode 2: I enjoyed it. I liked the Manetheren story. Flipping loved the Whitecloaks. They did a really good job of showing how some of them were actually decent too. Tip my hat to that interaction. Shadar Logoth…where the hell was Mordeth?!? That is a significant change. Would’ve liked to see Elyas. The mist to more of a shadow worked for me. The ferry scene worked too. (Again looooove the prosthetics  for the Trollocs). 
 

overall… B/B+

 

Episode 3: okay, serious qualms here. Still no bloody Elyas and the wolves were a bit weird. Perrin is gonna be Eeyore forever I swear. I knew they shouldn’t have screwed with his character. Elyas would have made there plot less plodding and meandering. Meet with him and meet with wolves…and then meet tinkers. They wandered around too much. Tinkers… the entire, “what you think we are going to steal your babies” comments etc. All they needed was one snarky comment during Bel Tine. Introduce the concept of thieving Tinkers in passing or something. (Show don’t tell). Maybe make one of them more suspicious of them when they met. Loved Thom. Loved his many colored patches inside his coat. We have the best bard!!! Just sayin haha. Loved the nastiness of the tavern. Loved Mat and Rand in this episode. The whole you and Mat can be as loud as you want was a bit shoehorned, but his response was top shelf for sure. Loved Nyn and Lan dynamics that was show-stopping for sure. 
 

overall… B

 

Final review 86-87%. I would put this in the Witcher range of visual quality and above Shadow and Bone or Carnival Row. There are however minor issues in each episode that inhibit each one from being truly masterful. The visuals, costuming, and set design all work for me. We need to weave in better dialogue and feel characters develop more. So far, it is hit and miss in that department. Sometimes working and sometimes not. If they can fix these minor errors moving forward it will be a smash hit, but only if. And there are some big alterations that will frustrate many fans.

Edited November 20, 2021 by JaimAybara

[swollymammoth]

Okay, now for things that I liked: 

 

1. The scene with the Emond's Fielders lighting the lanterns cut with Tam talking about life and the turning of the Wheel. I actually felt something. 

2. I think the guy who plays Perrin does a bang up job. 

3. Most of episode 2 was pretty okay. I liked that it slowed down and took its time and actually let the characters breathe a bit. The dream with the bat was good. 

4. The moment when Mat's mom is like, "You're going to be just like your father." Mat's backstory is stupid and pointless, but this moment almost saved it for me. 

5. Thom's conversation with Mat when they were cutting down the Aiel guy was pretty good. 

6. Dare I say it? I actually kinda like Rand and Egwene's relationship? It's poorly written, but its really just a heightened version of what happened in the books and it leads to the same sort of tensions. Not exactly how I might have done it, but it wasn't awful. 

7. Condensing Rand and Mat's Darkfriend run ins to a single encounter but giving that encounter more weight was a good idea. This encounter isn't very well executed, but it's a decision that does work and also gives us an introduction to Thom. 

8. Thom! Not his character, but the decision to put off his introduction until later. Great move and very sensible when considering the demands of adaptation. 

9. Padan Fain's actor. Not Padan Fain because I think they severely mishandled his character, but his actor is great and I think he could have really done work giving a big speech about a False Dragon in Ghealdan to the awestruck Emond's Fielders. 

10. Moiraine's Manetheren speech. Another great decision to move that to when they're traveling so that it wouldn't bog up the first episode. 

[Akragard]

On 11/19/2021 at 2:09 AM, Skipp said:

While not perfect I am really enjoying this as an adaptation.  I see the changes they have made and I think I am seeing why for a lot of them.  I think the pacing will settle down in time and any issues with the CG will only get better as the show continues.

 

Ultimately I am ecstatic that I have lived to see a WoT TV series and honestly couldn't care less what the naysayers who went into this show looking purely for its faults, think.

 

There is constructive criticism that can and should be leveled at what we got but I think the showrunners have a good idea of what they are doing.  I cannot wait to see where this road takes us.

 

"Roads don't work like that" - Mat Cauthon

The problem is the first season is already filmed in completion.  That means the production level and writing likely won't differ much for the first season.  They might be able to turn it around during the second season, but that may be too late.

 

This was a high budget production and it comes off feeling more like something from the SyFy channel.  I'm disappointed with a lot of the way things look.  The attention to detail is missing.  Set aside all the story issues and just focusing on the production value and it's just not there.  People who've been on the road for days, in Shadar Logoth, chased by Trollocs appear too clean and chipper.

 

Fades were the only thing for me that really jumped out as done right.  When the Fade rides on to the bridge at Tarren's Ferry and you can see the leaves on a tree blowing gently in the background, but it's cloak doesn't move?  Perfect.  Where was that level of detail in the rest of the show?  They couldn't afford to have Tam and Lan train for being world class level swordsmen?  They just felt clumsy. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Akragard

[Beidomon]

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Having unpacked the first 3 episodes a little more, there are the 3 main things that I dislike and all of them can at least be fixed to a certain extent. Seems more productive than just being utter doom and gloom about everything  ?. Obviously this is from the perspective of a book reader who knows what comes next for the characters and see issues with what has happened so far:

 

 

Mat's family: the main issue here, is that with Mat's father in particular being a scumbag, it takes away Mat's underlying influence to ultimately be good and heroic when the chips are down. I always felt that it was important for the Eamond Fielders to have a strong foundation, that they were all raised well. This change might explain why Mat is irresponsible and immature and carefree, but that isn't all Mat is.                                                                                                                                                                                         

It would have gone a long way to show a tiny bit of nuance with his parents. For exemple, when Mat went to find his sisters during the attack, having either his father, or his mother, try to follow him but be unnable to because their significant other was injured would have taken just a quick line of dialogue and at least shown a glimpse of the heroicness from his parents. Something that would pass on to Mat. Frankly I think they mainly went too hard on the sheer misery of Mat's family. Showing them living in poverty and hardship would have been enough in my opinion, perhaps with that situation beginning to create the dysfunctional family we were given. It would have served to expliain Mat's character fine without butchering his parents.

 

I think the simplest way of fixing it (because it does need fixing in my opinion), is first of all to of course have the family's relations improve on Perrin's return to the Two Rivers, and secondly for Mat to explain to someone, perhaps Thom, that his family wasn't always as miserable as they were shown.

 

 

Perrin's wife: the problem here is of course that the sheer trauma experienced by Perrin should by all rights cripple his character. And it seemingly hasn't affected him much so far. Other than a few tears I feel like I'm watching show Perrin acting like book Perrin. I can accept that he's just stuck in his head and shellshocked but he needs unpack soon, otherwise it's gonna start feeling real cheap to be honest.Honestly having Perrin kill someone else, perhaps Master Luhan like Sanderson suggested, or even simply another villager, in exactly the same manner would have served to set up his fear of losing control just as well. Alas they went for the wife.

 

How to make it better: Elyas. Elyas now please. Having Elyas show up, would allow Perin to realize his connection to the wolves, freak out over that and what it means for him, and unpack his accidental killing of his wife. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Elyas has been cast? So not sure if he's showing up or if another character will take over his role but I really think he needs to show up. Later on, I think it would be good for Perrin to have a heart to heart with Faile over the whole situation, with perhaps his wife being a darkfriend making the whole thing more confusing to him.

 

 

Moiraine revealing one of the 4 is the Dragon Reborn: Putting aside the inclusion of Egwene which I'm allowing time to see if they do something with it... I might hate this more than the previous two changes. There is no way Moiraine would openly reveal that to them. It's been her secret life mission for 20 years, and she just reveals this to 4 nobodies? One of whom could be a darkfriend! In front of a bunch of other people!! 

 

Beyond the fact that it doesn't suit her character to be so open with such vital information, its also just stupid of her. And furthermore the utter and complete lack of reaction from the 4 is madness. Mat doesn't buy it for a second but beyond that they just go along and are at best skeptical  or unsure. She didn't tell them they were secret royalty or something, she just told them that one of them is the reincarnation of a madman who's call to fame is that he slaughtered his family and broke the world and also maybe was allied to the Dark One. The boys at the least should be seriously panicked about this.

 

They've made it slightly better with some discussion between Mat and Rand, but I really think there needs to be some serious terror from them that this could actually be true. The possibilty of being the Dragon Reborn is not some insignificant tidbit of information.

 

 

Lastly this is more of a nitpick then a big issue with the show but:

 

The 4 taveren in the Two Rivers line...: No. Just no. There's so much wrong with that line. For book readers it makes no sense whatsoever. What weird things have happened in the Two River? How are there rumours about a concept no one knows about?

 

The very concept of taveren makes that line so dumb frankly. And from a show watcher perspective... it was never explained what a Taveren was. So what's the point of the line? Is it for the benefit of book fans? In that case it's a shame it makes no sense. Furthermore I've already stated it elsewhere but I really hope they don't make Egwene a taveren. I honestly believe it would be a diservice to her character.

 

Not much to do except pretend the line doesn't exist. And not make Egwene a taveren.

 

 

To be clear I very much enjoy the show even if I can point out countless things I wish were in the show (or weren't...). These things just predictably stood out to me as problematic.

I don’t really care too much about Layla or the Cauthons, but I agree that the “one of you 4” and the “rumors of 4 TV” were incredibly stupid. The showrunners don’t trust their audience enough to let any of this unfold more naturally, and it is just headsmackingly dumb. 

[Beidomon]

7 minutes ago, Akragard said:

This was a high budget production and it comes off feeling more like something from the SyFy channel.  I'm disappointed with a lot of the way things look.  The attention to detail is missing.  Set aside all the story issues and just focusing on the production value and it's just not there.  People who've been on the road for days, in Shadar Logoth, chased by Trollocs appear too clean and chipper.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees this. It’s not good. 

[Beidomon]

17 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Okay, now for things that I liked: 

 

1. The scene with the Emond's Fielders lighting the lanterns cut with Tam talking about life and the turning of the Wheel. I actually felt something. 

2. I think the guy who plays Perrin does a bang up job. 

3. Most of episode 2 was pretty okay. I liked that it slowed down and took its time and actually let the characters breathe a bit. The dream with the bat was good. 

4. The moment when Mat's mom is like, "You're going to be just like your father." Mat's backstory is stupid and pointless, but this moment almost saved it for me. 

5. Thom's conversation with Mat when they were cutting down the Aiel guy was pretty good. 

6. Dare I say it? I actually kinda like Rand and Egwene's relationship? It's poorly written, but its really just a heightened version of what happened in the books and it leads to the same sort of tensions. Not exactly how I might have done it, but it wasn't awful. 

7. Condensing Rand and Mat's Darkfriend run ins to a single encounter but giving that encounter more weight was a good idea. This encounter isn't very well executed, but it's a decision that does work and also gives us an introduction to Thom. 

8. Thom! Not his character, but the decision to put off his introduction until later. Great move and very sensible when considering the demands of adaptation. 

9. Padan Fain's actor. Not Padan Fain because I think they severely mishandled his character, but his actor is great and I think he could have really done work giving a big speech about a False Dragon in Ghealdan to the awestruck Emond's Fielders. 

10. Moiraine's Manetheren speech. Another great decision to move that to when they're traveling so that it wouldn't bog up the first episode. 

I agree with all of this except that I though E2 was pretty awful (especially how they rushed through SL) and Mo’s ManETHeren speech fell flat. 

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Bye bye. In the past there were forums with plus and minus comments, and some even thoughtful comments, and some reasonable back and forth. This forum, and it's probably a sign of the times, is a collection of whiny little complaints from viewers who would rant about Van Gogh's flower fetish. I'm audi.

Good. If you don’t like what somebody else posts, either ignore it or respond with your disagreement, but stop whining about and criticizing other people’s opinions. That’s the worst. 

[Scarloc99]

20 minutes ago, Akragard said:

The problem is the first season is already filmed in completion.  That means the production level and writing likely won't differ much for the first season.  They might be able to turn it around during the second season, but that may be too late.

 

This was a high budget production and it comes off feeling more like something from the SyFy channel.  I'm disappointed with a lot of the way things look.  The attention to detail is missing.  Set aside all the story issues and just focusing on the production value and it's just not there.  People who've been on the road for days, in Shadar Logoth, chased by Trollocs appear too clean and chipper.

 

Fades were the only thing for me that really jumped out as done right.  When the Fade rides on the the bridge at Tarren's Ferry and you can see the leaves on a tree blowing gently in the background, but it's cloak doesn't move?  Perfect.  Where was that level of detail in the rest of the show?  They couldn't afford to have Tam and Lan train for being world class level swordsmen?  They just felt clumsy. 

For me the subtle foreshadowing of Rands background was great, the Camera lingering on the Aiel showing the shade of red clearly before then switching to Rand facing off with the dark friend. The casual viewer may not have noticed it straight away but it is there as a nice thing to look back on. 
 

For that matter the difference in complexion between Rand and all the other cast in Edmonds Field, if you go back he very clearly stands out as paler and red haired. 

[Harad the White]

16 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Good. If you don’t like what somebody else posts, either ignore it or respond with your disagreement, but stop whining about and criticizing other people’s opinions. That’s the worst. 

Just one last comment about hypocrisy. Not only is this the very thing that it complains about, but it even uses the same words. Ugh.

[Maximillion]

Just now, Harad the White said:

Just one last comment about hypocrisy. Not only is this the very thing that it complains about, but it even uses the same words. Ugh.

 

You don't seem to be able to handle other people's view very well.

Your 'bye' post was a load of nonsense.

 

 

[Arie]

This is getting into insulting territory. Reign it back, please.

[Agitel]

Anyone have a guess as to when we'll see viewership metrics?

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Anyone have a guess as to when we'll see viewership metrics?

 

Do Amazon even release those?

[Akragard]

And the Wolves. Why are the wolves so small? Did the production team not do any research? Wolves are roughly the size of black bears.

 

They are massive. Those little coyotes or house dogs from episode 3 aren't gonna be taking down a Trolloc or Fade.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Akragard

[Akragard]

3 hours ago, Ploodie said:

Also -I know they want to have big impressive magic effects, but I'm not a fan of being able to see the weaves. From my recollection, only Aes Sedai could see the weaves. They need to do something to clarify this. In the earlier scene when the Red caused the rocky passage to collapse, we didn't see the weaves. It's confusing.

I think being able to see the Weaves will be increasingly important. Particularly when you get to splitting weaves and healing later in the series. It was something I really liked. I thought the representation of the One Power was a good idea.

[Agitel]

11 minutes ago, Akragard said:

And the Wolves. Why are the wolves so small? Did the production team not do any research? Wolves are roughly the size of black bears.

 

They are massive. Those little coyotes or house dogs from episode 3 aren't gonna be taking down a Trolloc or Fade.

 

Black bears? They're not dire wolves! Wolves vary in size from three to five feet long.

[Akragard]

9 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Black bears? They're not dire wolves! Wolves vary in size from three to five feet long.

From Britannica.com:

 

A typical northern male may be about 2 metres (6.6 feet) long, including the bushy half-metre-long tail. Standing 76 cm (30 inches) tall at the shoulder, it weighs about 45 kg (100 pounds), but weight ranges from 14 to 65 kg (31 to 143 pounds), depending on the geographic area.

 

Maybe I'm picturing them bigger in my head, but I'm 6'7" and 30 inches is mid thigh for me, which is pretty darn big.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Akragard