tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[WhiteVeils]

15 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Actually, they haven't.  In the cold opening for Ep 1 Liandrin tells that unnamed man that it was his touching of the one power that fouled it.   And you can't use the unreliable narrator for that.  If an Aes Sedai says something like that she must believe that Saidin and Saidar are the same.  If they are so stupid as to believe that then it means that Aes Sedai are all just blithering idiots.   So the choices are (a) Aes Sedai are all complete morons, (b) there is no difference between Saidin and Saidar, or (c) the writers are blithering idiots.  And guess who wrote that episode?   

You know who/what Liandrin is, right?  She can absolutely say that and have it not actually be true.
Besides, we know that Saidin and Saidir are separate and Saidin is tainted, because we see it actively depicted on the screen.  The taint doesn't come out of men, it is tainted going into them after they get it going. THAT is the only thing that is independent of an unreliable person making comments.

Aes Sedai of this age don't have any reason whatsoever to know exactly how Saidin works. It's not that they're idiots. It's that they've found and gentled every man who showed a glimmer of channeling without caring less about the specifics of how they do what they do.  They don't let them stay channeling long enough to find out.  We won't have any 'reliable' discussion of how Saidin works until Asmodean shows up, or Rand discovers it for himself.  Or maybe, maybe some very old, academic sisters who care about ancient records.

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Interesting idea, though after being beaten over the head by the themes of the first season I'd think it more likely Nynaeve would make this discovery and ultimately be responsible for cleansing saidin.

Maybe Saidin has a tell…

[chri5]

On 12/26/2021 at 11:52 AM, CivBrit said:

This episode frustrate me to no end, for reasons pervious posters have already elaborated on. 

 

I understand that Rafe's changes were aimed at making the show more of an ensemble, but that could have been achieved in a way that still showcased the Dragon's power and kept closer to the spirit of the book.

 

Imagine if it had gone down like this:

 

Lolial warns Moiraine that the Ogier are hearing rumours the DO is focusing his attention on the Eye of the World. Moiraine explains to the party that the Eye is supposed to be one of the last remnants of the Age of Legends, and they cannot allow it to fall into the hands of the shadow, but to journey there will be risky because it is close to the DO's prison.

 

Rand, Moiraine and Lan sneak out of Fal Dara at night, not wanting to risk bringing the other to such a dangerous place. We get some shots of them navigating the blight, and Lan gets a chance to show off his skills as he cuts down some blight-born horror. We also get a brief scene of either Tam (flashback) or Lan teaching Rand the flame and the void. Rand asks if Lan is afraid to die, and Lan says 'Death is lighter than a feather, duty is heavier than a mountain. It would be an honour to die helping Moiraine Sedai and the Dragon face the Dark One'.

 

Meanwhile, much to everyone's horror, an overwhelming host of Trollocks and Fades amasses at Tarwin's gap. Agelmar and his people seem gravely concerned, and prepare to defend the gap, knowing it is likely hopeless. 

 

Moiraine and co. arrive at the Eye, which is some kind of ancient temple. Moiraine interprets writing on the walls and translates that the temple was build to house relics of the last Dragon. They are attached by the man with the flaming eyes, who effortlessly incapacitates Moiraine and Lan. He appears inside Rand's head as Fares Fares, and we get a similar scene with the 'Dark One' offering Rand anything he wants. Rand has the same epiphany, realizing that the real Egwene is destined for greater things than being a farmer's wife. Rand resists, breaks the spell and wakes up. Ishamael toys with Rand, and tortures Moiraine and Lan. This motivates Rand to seize the power and lash out. Ishy is temporarily taken by surprise and forced on the defensive. The two clash, but it is clear that Rand is untrained and no match. Rand flees through the blight, Ishy in hot pursuit.

 

The fight at the gap begins. Agelmar's forces fight valiantly. Agelmar's sister teaches Egwene how to channel lightning, even though she herself can barely manage  a few sparks. Egwene is a quick study, and soon puts on an impressive display hurling lightning into the Trollock hordes. It is not enough though. Things look bleak. Nynaeve wants to help but cannot seem to channel. She is frustrated as she watches on helplessly. It is only when a force breaks through the ranks and charges at Egwene that Nynaeve manages to break her block, and unleash a devastating attack.

 

Rand is sprinting through the blight, running for his life with Ishy (now in his flaming eyes form again) trying to find him. Rand bursts out onto a cliff top, and looks down in horror at the scene below. Thousands upon thousands of darkspawn are overwhelming Agelmar and co. Egwene and Nynaeve have slayed hundreds but they are barely holding on, exhausted, too weak to keep it up. Overlooking the battle from the clifftop, Rand closes his eyes, breathes deep, visualizes the flame and the void. 

 

Agelmar, bloodied, near death, surrounded, looks up at the cliff top. There is a figure there, silhouetted in light, but with dark tendrils snaking around him. A HUGE stormcloud is amassing over his head. He looks frightened but in awe. Rand screams as a huge amount of power rushes through him, and from the stormcloud bursts an almighty torrent of lightning which obliterates the Trollock army. The few that survive flee in terror.

 

Rand falls to his knees, shaking, looking down at his hands in disbelief. Lan and Moiraine come up behind him. They say there is no sign of the Dark One who was following Rand. Moiraine is holding some sort of casket wrapped in cloth, that she recovered from the Eye temple.

 

Cut back to Fal Dara. They celebrate their victory. People are in scared awe of Rand, and also acknowledge the power of Nynaeve and Egwene. Moiraine unwraps the cloth and reveals the Dragon Banner, and a case containing the Horn.

 

Lan takes Moirane aside and asks if that was really the DO they saw. Moiraine says no, "if the DO was free from his prison, we would all already be dead, or worse, slaves to his will. No, that  must have been one of the Forsaken. They were the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends, far stronger and more knowledgeable than any woman in the Tower today. If they are somehow free, then the last battle is closer than I feared. We must get these young ones trained in time to be ready, and pray that Rand can hold on to his sanity long enough to resist the darkness".

 

Final scene is Padan Fain letting some Fades sneak into Fal Dara, murder some guards, and steal the Horn. 

 

Instead we got whatever the heck that episode was.

This would have been so much better. 

[chri5]

30 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Actually, they haven't.  In the cold opening for Ep 1 Liandrin tells that unnamed man that it was his touching of the one power that fouled it.   And you can't use the unreliable narrator for that.  If an Aes Sedai says something like that she must believe that Saidin and Saidar are the same.  If they are so stupid as to believe that then it means that Aes Sedai are all just blithering idiots.   So the choices are (a) Aes Sedai are all complete morons, (b) there is no difference between Saidin and Saidar, or (c) the writers are blithering idiots.  And guess who wrote that episode?   

I think the answer is that Aes Sedai are wrong, and they believe that there is no distinction between male and female power. 
 

My logic is this…

 

All Aes Sedai learn from the same teachers. 
All* Aes Sedai are bound by the oaths. 
Other Aes Sedai heard her say that the man causes the taint. 
 

Either they heard her lie in violation of an oath, or they heard her say accepted Aes Sedai dogma. 
 

If they heard her lie, they would know about a certain issue she has in the books and they wouldn’t keep quiet. 
 

This makes me believe the Aes Sedai don’t know that there are two halves of the one power. 
 

This was my theory after episodes 1-3. 
 

And there will be a big reveal showing that Aes Sedai aren’t as smart as we thought they were. 

[Yojimbo]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You know who/what Liandrin is, right?  She can absolutely say that and have it not actually be true.
Besides, we know that Saidin and Saidir are separate and Saidin is tainted, because we see it actively depicted on the screen.  The taint doesn't come out of men, it is tainted going into them after they get it going. THAT is the only thing that is independent of an unreliable person making comments.

Aes Sedai of this age don't have any reason whatsoever to know exactly how Saidin works. It's not that they're idiots. It's that they've found and gentled every man who showed a glimmer of channeling without caring less about the specifics of how they do what they do.  They don't let them stay channeling long enough to find out.  We won't have any 'reliable' discussion of how Saidin works until Asmodean shows up, or Rand discovers it for himself.  Or maybe, maybe some very old, academic sisters who care about ancient records.

Yes, I know what Liandrin is.  So are we to assume every single Aes Sedai with her in that opening sequence is too?   If they aren't, how could they not react to that statement with shock?  It would be an outright lie.   She said it straight out.  "your touch fouls the source"

 

The way it is depicted can easily be interpreted as the men creating the taint, not that the taint it a part of the OP, since it shows up After they start channelling, not at the exact moment they start.  

 

So you are saying then that Aes Sedai ARE blithering idiots who don't know anything at all about Saidin.    There is not a shred of information that came down to them over thousands of years?   All men are gentled without as much as a conversation with them?  Somehow I think the Browns would have issues with that.   And also, they seem to know (or think they do) what is a male Angreal though, right?  Or are they wrong about that too and all angreal can be used be either men or women?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yojimbo]

5 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I think the answer is that Aes Sedai are wrong, and they believe that there is no distinction between male and female power. 
 

My logic is this…

 

All Aes Sedai learn from the same teachers. 
All* Aes Sedai are bound by the oaths. 
Other Aes Sedai heard her say that the man causes the taint. 
 

Either they heard her lie in violation of an oath, or they heard her say accepted Aes Sedai dogma. 
 

If they heard her lie, they would know about a certain issue she has in the books and they wouldn’t keep quiet. 
 

This makes me believe the Aes Sedai don’t know that there are two halves of the one power. 
 

This was my theory after episodes 1-3. 
 

And there will be a big reveal showing that Aes Sedai aren’t as smart as we thought they were. 

Yup.  The choice are either they are complete imbeciles or Rafe has decided that there will be no difference.   Not a good choice either way.

[Ryrin]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

Aes Sedai habit and trickery.  She never says the lack of time is why she can't teach him or that if there was time she could teach him.  She let's him conflate two statements together.  That way she doesn't have to admit to weakness or lack of knowledge.

Saidar and Saidin are two different things. That’s why she can’t teach him. 

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I think the answer is that Aes Sedai are wrong, and they believe that there is no distinction between male and female power. 
 

My logic is this…

 

All Aes Sedai learn from the same teachers. 
All* Aes Sedai are bound by the oaths. 
Other Aes Sedai heard her say that the man causes the taint. 
 

Either they heard her lie in violation of an oath, or they heard her say accepted Aes Sedai dogma. 
 

If they heard her lie, they would know about a certain issue she has in the books and they wouldn’t keep quiet. 
 

This makes me believe the Aes Sedai don’t know that there are two halves of the one power. 
 

This was my theory after episodes 1-3. 
 

And there will be a big reveal showing that Aes Sedai aren’t as smart as we thought they were. 

Quite possible.  And I’m not arguing your theory, but this gives rise to the same issue we’ve seen all season: minimizing men.  What we should see is Rand breaking reality, showing the wisest of the wise that he can do things they say is impossible.  If the show goes the route you explain, it just shows that nobody really knew anything and Rand is just doing something they haven’t discovered yet.  It may seem a small difference but it changes a lot.

[Mirefox]

1 minute ago, Ryrin said:

Saidar and Saidin are two different things. That’s why she can’t teach him. 

Yes, but we are trying to figure out why it is never once explained in the show.

[Jackdaw_Fool]

16 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

The way it is depicted can easily be interpreted as the men creating the taint, not that the taint it a part of the OP

This. Or that simply there is only the one power and it is tainted when used by men. There is certainly nothing there that proves there are separate components to the one power or that saidin or saidar exist.

 

16 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

they seem to know (or think they do) what is a male Angreal though, right?  Or are they wrong about that too and all angreal can be used be either men or women?

Moiraine only tells Rand the idol she gives him is a s'angreal, not a male s'angreal. She says a thousand male channelers put their power into it, but that doesn't mean a thousand female channelers didn't also. Maybe in the show it (and all such items) are gender inconsequential, and it would have worked for Egwene too.

 

ETA: Moiraine also tells Rand the idol was made with the "one power"... Again no mention of saidin.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool

[chri5]

10 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Quite possible.  And I’m not arguing your theory, but this gives rise to the same issue we’ve seen all season: minimizing men.  What we should see is Rand breaking reality, showing the wisest of the wise that he can do things they say is impossible.  If the show goes the route you explain, it just shows that nobody really knew anything and Rand is just doing something they haven’t discovered yet.  It may seem a small difference but it changes a lot.

To be clear, I dislike the way it has been done too. Even if my guess is right. 

[chri5]

If I remember correctly, that is the angreal Rand uses through most of the book. 
 

But now it is also effectively the EoTW from the books, and upgraded to sa’angreal 
 

That means it is way OP for Rand to have all the time. Sigh. 

[WoTwasThat]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

I personally see it as approaching the change with an open mind.

I feel like I watched with an open mind, too, but eight hours of content is enough to form some definite opinions. Some of ya’ll remind me of the parable of the boy with the shovel in a room full of manure and a smile on his face because “with all this poop around there’s gotta be a pony somewhere!”

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

But it is pretty emblematic of what you don’t like.

 

It is obvious that one of two things is going on.  Either the writers don’t know the story or they don’t like the story.  Rage claims to love it but you don’t fundamentally change something you love.

 

LTT is a case in point.  Being called the Dragon Reborn is pretty bad and seems a clear error by the writers.  Making him act out of arrogance is more than an error; it is a fundamental change to his character.  

While it was a bit jarring, I point you to the fact that the cycle of life and the Wheel, and the reality of the Dark One versus the Dragon had been explained by Elan Tedronai on the floor of the Hall of Servants by this point as part of his turn to the Shadow, so I'm willing to accept that they may be more willing to believe LTT is the Dragon Reborn, instead of just a dragon. I think it was a script issue, myself, but it's not big enough to get worked up over.

 

I also didn't mind the arrogance; LTT was arrogant, with very good reason.  He was the Dragon, and the most powerful channeller alive. And the Tamyrlin Seat.

 

What I hated with Latra's knowing what would happen if he tried (woman right, man wrong, instead of woman fearing the unknown). And the fact that without the exhausted desperation, and self-sacrificing intent behind it, LTT is not shown to be willing to sacrifice himself and the 100 companions to save the world, but only as someone not willing to consider alternatives.

[Ralph]

6 hours ago, Mirefox said:

 Rafe is the guy who has, in interviews, said things like Rand doesn’t have the most chapters or words in the books (demonstrably false) or that he had to have so many fake deaths this season so there will be a bigger impact in the future when he kills a character who doesn’t die in the books (What?!?).  

When has he said either of these things please? I have not seen or heard either. 

[Ralph]

3 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

 

 

ETA: Moiraine also tells Rand the idol was made with the "one power"... Again no mention of saidin.

She said was made by men. Why would this have to be if they are the same? 

 

Why is the Aes Sedai symbol two parts, one white and black, reflected by LTT and LPD's clothing? 

 

What is the Flame? The Dragon's Fang? 

 

"your Power" clearly indicates it is different. 

 

They have chosen not to explain it to minimise the new concepts for non-readers, but the concepts are all there. 

 

Liandrin was obvious hyperbole, not what she believes the taint is. 

 

And tbh, I'm getting bored of people making everything into a huge Pattern of man-bashing. Even if they would have changed this, it would simply be to make sense if you believe gender is a continuum not binary. And that is not "pushing an agenda" because they haven't said it, it is just making it make sense. 

 

But as I have said, I think it is clearly untrue anyway

Edited December 29, 2021 by Ralph

[notpropaganda73]

I really disliked this episode but it is exhausting seeing the "man-bashing" takes. 

 

I don't know how anyone sees that final episode and thinks "Wow Egwene really has been elevated to a huge level in this show." She does literally nothing and is just used. Healing Nynaeve (is that what's even happened?) was just bad, it wasn't impressive in any way and doesn't come across as a huge moment for her character. It was just a bad scene done badly. 

 

Nynaeve in this last episode was also just boring and useless. Just because she has been given big moments that have annoyed lots of people, doesn't make her character interesting. What would have been interesting in this episode was for her to suffer a block when she needed to channel the most. After showing us what she is capable of through the season and then not to have access to that in their time of need... that would have been cool. But no, she's just able to open herself up to the Power with no issues. 

 

Like I understand being frustrated with the show but honestly the women in this final episode come off as boring idiots. 

 

Rand is the only interesting story in the finale and the only story that was done in any way close to a decent level. If we had gotten more scenes like The Man tempting him throughout the season it would have had even more impact I think. But that's pretty indicative of the show overall, missed opportunities everywhere. 

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Like I understand being frustrated with the show but honestly the women in this final episode come off as boring idiots. 

Rafe doesn't seem to understand that having women that are omega powerful with no flaw, and are always correct over the men over all situations (including over the Breaking of the World....) makes for boring television. Nynaeve has no block, Egwene can now heal death/near-death without any training, Amalisa bloody Jagad wrecks an army instead of the Dragon, etc. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I don't know how anyone sees that final episode and thinks "Wow Egwene really has been elevated to a huge level in this show." She does literally nothing and is just used. Healing Nynaeve (is that what's even happened?) was just bad, it wasn't impressive in any way and doesn't come across as a huge moment for her character. It was just a bad scene done badly. 

I don' t think it is healing exactly, more trying to correct channeling over-strain by  pushing some of the one power back into the person who has pushed too hard - a character in the books does this at a later stage (male to male) when a channeller has strained himself by day long excess use rather than by a short term strain. 

 

19 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Rafe doesn't seem to understand that having women that are omega powerful with no flaw, and are always correct over the men over all situations (including over the Breaking of the World....) makes for boring television.

No flaw - when entering a circle means the one controlling it can force you to overdraw to the point of burn out or death?  Use of a circle now requires supreme trust of the intent and skills of the leader.  Amalsia clearly badly misjudged her self control when faced with far more power than she had used before (and perhaps this lack of control was as much why she was not tested for AS as lack of strength).

[Mirefox]

34 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Rafe doesn't seem to understand that having women that are omega powerful with no flaw, and are always correct over the men over all situations (including over the Breaking of the World....) makes for boring television. Nynaeve has no block, Egwene can now heal death/near-death without any training, Amalisa bloody Jagad wrecks an army instead of the Dragon, etc. 

Nyn will have a block.  Just wait.  They are either going to say that the circle did something to her or that she can’t channel on command and she only did what she did out of extreme emotion or something, making it all some ridiculously contrived deus ex machina to serve the writers’ purposes when they needed her.

[7th age]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I really disliked this episode but it is exhausting seeing the "man-bashing" takes. 

 

It is exhausting because in typical (modern US) political debate style most people just try to vent their frustration/want to get their position heard, instead of listening to the other side and actually engaging in fruitfull discussion.

That goes to both sides though, I really dont see that there is more nuance on one side or the other.

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

What would have been interesting in this episode was for her to suffer a block when she needed to channel the most

 

100% agree, in fact for a second or two when they get called to help I thought now theyre going to show her block, but then she just calmy touches the source ,something btw. she has never done before AND hasnt had any training to do. Uncontrolled stresschanneling of a wilder is one thing, but here we go from something that in the books takes weeks and month to learn to something that in the show just can be done without any training.

Though it just occured to me, considereing what Rafe said about setting up the girls for their S2 arc, that they will probably use this scene to explain why Nyn and Eg need to go to the white tower and train(because otherwise they might end up like Amalisa...).

 

[Mirefox]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

When has he said either of these things please? I have not seen or heard either. 

This is a completely fair request and I wanted to acknowledge that I saw it.  Unfortunately, I never copied the quotes down or anything; I think they both came from a post-season interview.  If I stumble across them again I will be sure to bring them to your attention.

[7th age]

18 hours ago, EmreY said:

Well, off the top of my head:

  Hide contents

Nynaeve healing things that are not supposed to be healable

Rand killing 150,000, with bodies strewn in heaps, not just dotted across a landscape

Rand & Nynaeve destroying both Shagar Logoth and the Taint

... and more

 

Actually this might be the worst part of the whole battle. I already didnt like the no army can get past 7 full sisters/you have stopped armies  comments(if anyone can then it is the captain-general of the green but still). Trollocs and regular troops were made to be practically useless in battle(in ep8 much more so, despite the comments the battle in ep.4 felt right in terms of power lvls between channelers and regular folks).

They HAVE to scale this back somehow, otherwise later battles wont work at all.

If this is what 5 linked channelers can do and we stay with the inshow logic on this then the battle part of the LB should last no longer then  5 seconds, imagine Demandred in a full circle (is it 72 channelers? not sure exactly but more then 50 for certain) plus a sa'angreal, no need for balefire or anything just throw lightning at 10-20 (maybe only 5-10 if you consider the burning out but still more then enough and  why wouldnt the Ayyad burn themselves out for their glorious saviour)times the strength of what was shown in ep8 and no amount of luck and military expertise can help Mat turn this tide.

Edited December 29, 2021 by 7th age

[Jackdaw_Fool]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

She said was made by men. Why would this have to be if they are the same?

She doesn't say that though. She says: "This is a sa'angreal. It was made before the Breaking of the World, created from the One Power itself." Why wouldn't she just say it was a male sa'angreal, if the powers were different? One measly word - "male" - is all that would have been needed.

 

If the power is gendered and they have saidin and saidar, they have to start laying the groundwork for it somewhere, and they have totally avoided mentioning it the entire first season now. Which is odd as it would have been easier to explain than to go out of your way to not mention at this point. They didn't even have to use the fancy words, saidin and saidar. "The one power has both a male half and a female half, Egwene. The male half was tainted by the Dark One due to men's arrogance. But thankfully we channel the female half." So with the strange continual omission at every opportunity, I am rightfully suspicious of its existence.

 

All the little "clues" you mention may point to there being a distinction. I'm not saying there isn't saidin/saidar, just that there may not be. But the things you mention are so subtle and may also just point to there just being a distinction between male and female channelers, which there seems to be per the prologue (all the men with LTT, all the women with LPD, the men's club gets the dragon's fang, the female club the white flame), etc.

 

Even "your power" doesn't refer to what you suggest in the dialogue. Latra is stating if LTT does what he plans, the power he uses to do it (your power) could run out of control, run unchecked, and throw them all back a thousand years or more. Again they totally sidestep the male/female half of the power from being described.

 

Anyway, my point was only that Moiraine said thousands of male channelers put their power into the sa'angreal, but that doesn't mean thousands of female channelers didn't also. I was thinking that if the dragon turned out to be, say, Egwene as it is implied Moiraine may have been suspecting, that perhaps she too could have used the sa'angreal. After all, it wasn't stated to belong to a certain gender, and perhaps in this show sa'angreal can be used by either gender (as was suggested by the post I was replying to.)

[Yojimbo]

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

She said was made by men. Why would this have to be if they are the same? 

 

Why is the Aes Sedai symbol two parts, one white and black, reflected by LTT and LPD's clothing? 

 

What is the Flame? The Dragon's Fang? 

 

"your Power" clearly indicates it is different. 

 

They have chosen not to explain it to minimise the new concepts for non-readers, but the concepts are all there. 

 

Liandrin was obvious hyperbole, not what she believes the taint is. 

 

And tbh, I'm getting bored of people making everything into a huge Pattern of man-bashing. Even if they would have changed this, it would simply be to make sense if you believe gender is a continuum not binary. And that is not "pushing an agenda" because they haven't said it, it is just making it make sense. 

 

But as I have said, I think it is clearly untrue anyway

Have they even used the words The Dragon's Flame?   Did I just miss this?

 

Liandran said straight out "your touch corrupts the power".   How is that hyperbole?   If there is saidin/saidar that is a flat out lie, the others with her would be shocked to hear an outright lie.  

 

Why would they chose to minimize something that is at the heart of the entire story, the dichotomy between men and women.