tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[EmreY]

I think the last episode improves on a re-watch.  Normally, I think that giving a TV episode a second chance is a bit of a cop-out, but in this case, knowing what's to come, you're not concentrated quite as much on the changes as what is being presented.  And that is not too bad.  Though this is a loose adaptation, and likely to become ever looser before tightening up at the end.

 

A few random comments:

 

The kids' argument: Still pretty pointless, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Journey though the blight: I liked this less the second time.  Another abbreviated trip through danger.

 

Shienaran battle tactics: If these guys are the first line of defence, the hypervigilant shield, then Light help the Dragon Reborn.  And their fortifications? Oh, please.

 

...

 

But I liked the Ba'alzamon versus Rand encounter much much more.  Compared to what happens in the books, it is a letdown, but then I remembered what happened at the end of Books 2 & 3.  A little variety is good, I think, even if 2 & 3 are condensed into one season.

 

...

 

I do wish they would extend the series to 10-12 episodes each, though.

 

And I really, really want to see the second series open with that huge tidal wave hitting the mountains, lose half its strength and obliterate the fleet that was foolish enough to raise it there.

Edited December 26, 2021 by EmreY

[mbuehner]

Not a huge thing, but the damane sending a tsunami against a child just smacks of 'how cool would it be' ism.

[Brytac]

18 hours ago, 7th age said:

 

Thats not entirely true though is it?

They already changed some bits in the early seasons(almost stopped watching it after episode one due to them making Drogo rape Daenaerys and I while I liked the Tywin/Arya bit in season 2 I was very much disappointed we didnt get any weasel soup) and then had to invent new stuff later on and we all know how that turned out (the total clusterfuck started in season 5, not 8. people just chose to ignore it because of nice action scenes and the hope it would somehow fit together at the end instead of just being a series of "shocking" moments).

 

Of course this just strengthens your point. GoT was succesfull where they followed the Bookscript and failed where they deviated from it.

 

For me this is semi true for this series as well.  I somewhat enjoy the analyzing and there are a lot of changes I can understand due to change of medium (the logain bits/ep 4 was excellent and for me there is no hard deviation from the books, as this story was unfolding in the background and all the small scenes showing  AS/warders just made for excellent worldbuilding for the Nonbookies), or due to things that are annoying but out of the producers hands (cuts due too budget/time restraints and Mat actor leaving).

 

Where I really have problems are the sometimes rather small changes that I cant explain/understand in these terms. The whole ep.5 Steppin storyline comes to mind(ep4. Stepping and Kerene were awesome for introducing warder/AS relationship).

Making Egwene killing/stabbing Whitecloaks but not Perrin(after fridging his wife I was sure they were going to cut the whitecloak capturing of them due to time issues, but then they leave most of that except the part that actually has consequences throughout the later books???)

 

And then there are the somewhat small but clearly ideologicaly motivated changes to Agelmar and the Borderlanders, why make him disrespectful towards AS, dismissive of the Shadow as a threat and the opinions of others in general, have him refuse the armor of his ancestors  and instead have his sister wear it??? . The whole idea of the women (and children?????????) staying to defend the city is a 100% reversal of Borderlander culture.

In a world mostly dominated by women this was the one thing women were not allowed, it ties into their whole chivalry thing (rather die then let a women take a wound etc.) plus this always seemed supremly realistic to me. I know RJ once said that out of all the characters he felt he had done the soldiers best and while Im not a soldier myself I have worked with quite a few of them. You can ask people to die and If they feel that doing so will protect their loved ones quite a few will be willing to take on gigantic risks. Tell someone that they should fight a hopeless battle, only so that their wife and kids can follow them into the grave and any decent parent/husband would take their family and run asap.

 

 

I dont know what to say to you....if you are going to argue that the changes in GOT are comparable to the ones ive just watched in WOT ep8....then I really cant say much to you.

 

What on earth have I just watched.

 

 

[WoTwasThat]

4 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Do you think Saidin will ever be cleansed? Of course, Moiraine, Egwene and Nynaeve will hold hands and scream and 10 seconds later the taint will be gone. No problems. Feel free to get invested in any character.

 

Um, what’s this Saidin thing you speak of? According to the show, there’s only this thing called the One Power, which men can’t channel without going mad, all because a guy named Lews Therin - aka the Dragon Reborn - went and messed with the Dark One for no good reason, and against the advice of the Tamyrlin Seat. Anyway, who cares about a Dragon Reborn when you got a Nynaeve Power Ranger?

[Sunkiss]

6 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Training at the tower? Show-wise, Siuan should resign and give the Seat to the EF girls, who are way better than any living AS. They do not need any training: they can already instant-heal from near-death  and unleash devastation to the enemy.

It's like if in GoT 1st season, when  Merin Trant comes for Arya Stark, she doesn't run away but takes the sword from Syrio and kills the knight in 5 seconds. 

Yes, I agree. What is the use of Moraine and the other Aes if the 2 girls can do everything. The show seems to be centered around them for now.

[WoTwasThat]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Posting this from reddit but I don't have a direct quote for the sources but this has been gathered from a number of interviews and behind the scene things.

 

 

If true we certainly had a subpar episode compared to what we should have had. 

 

While I enjoyed episode 8 it was certainly disappointing to me as a book fan but I am not going to let it impact my enjoyment of waiting for season 2.

I fail to understand how “Covid” is the reason for massive deviations from the books. 

[Arie]

Let's remain on-topic Please. ? This is WoT not GoT.

[Mirefox]

7 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

I fail to understand how “Covid” is the reason for massive deviations from the books. 

It’s really quite simple.  Because of COVID they didn’t have the personnel or resources to make any special effects for Rand at the Gap.  So they made special effects for five women at the Gap…

 

 

 

 

/sarcasm, because internet.

[Finfolfin]

On 12/24/2021 at 3:38 PM, JenniferL said:

Yes, the ball gag completely avoids that. 

I'm looking forward to the girls hiding Moggy in Salidar with a ballgag in her mouth

[Brytac]

26 minutes ago, Arie said:

Let's remain on-topic Please. ? This is WoT not GoT.

Surely GOT is relevant here?

 

They are both (until recently) taboo subjects for TV Series...and GOT absolutely blew the world away and set a benchmark.

 

They did it by being true to the books wherever they could for the most part in my opinion.

 

I wonder what the WOT were thinking after absorbing GOT and then deciding to blow away the source material for their own better version of characters and events?

 

In truth...its absolutely baffling me right now.  I was hoping for GOTesque new blockbuster(in the sense of another huge fantasy TV show..not in the sense of copying or pretending to be GOT).

[Ryrin]

58 minutes ago, Sunkiss said:

I am a non book reader. I am somewhat confused. Moraine is my favorite character so now that she is stilled what will be her role? I was expecting a better cliff hanger.episode 7 was a bigger cliff hanger than E8. Just ki d of meh. Too much dreaming. The king of the city dying so easily. Naneyeve seems to be the most important character and I dislike her. I like the show just disappointed in E8.

I believe Moiraine was shielded not stilled. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Lots of book readers seem to be missing this.

It's interesting how easily the unreliable narrator is forgotten by fans.

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

It's interesting how easily the unreliable narrator is forgotten by fans.

Especially considering they use it over and over and over and over again.  The Aes Sedai are all apparently morons.   The only thing they were right about the entire season was the Sa'Angreal that Moraine produced at the (thumb in the )Eye of the World. 

[Windigo]

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

To be fair, it's unlikely she fully understood the nature of the battle to take place.  She gave him the small statue thinking it would be a battle of the power.  Since there are no records of what exactly LTT did, the Aes Sedai really don't have alot of information on what a dragon vs DO confrontation would be like.  But it would also be safe to assume any confrontation between "normal" people and the DO wouldn't end well.

That is part of the problem with the Prophecies and Karaethon Cycle not being a bigger part of the show,  in the books Moiraine spent 20 years preparing and studying. In the show she apparently is less knowledgeable,  even if there is questions on their accuracy, not having the show Moiraine be more knowledgeable of the Prophecies makes the 20 years devoted to her cause less believable.  

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I kind of wish the show had one expert female consultant and an expert male consultant. Did they say Sanderson didn’t get a chance to look at the script for the finale? Oof. 
 

It’s hard for me to say this show isn’t sexist towards men beyond what is actually on the page for the plot after watching the season in its entirety. The writers in Hollywood just can’t help themselves with artificially inflating the female characters, nerfing most the men, injecting character assassination for two of the male leads, and then removed most of the plot points from Rand because of the “mystery”, then I was told to wait for the pay off at Tarwin’s Gap and they give the big moment that should have been Rand’s to all the women…yet again. The main one of which was an accepted who failed to become an Aes Sedai. Not to mention everything wrong in the world is 100% men’s fault unequivocally, as if they knew and chose to do it anyway? Unbelievable. 

 

Imagine reading Hunger Games and then it was all about Peta and Katniss just kinda came along for the ride, or if Harry Potter was mainly about Ron, Hermione, and Neville?  Many of the book readers would say, “what the hell?” And rightly so. Yes, The Wheel of Time is more of an Ensemble, but this season can hardly be called such, or more specifically, a successful one. The only characters allowed to to prosper at all were Egwene, Nynaeve, and Moiraine. Apparently, “heart and soul” to the show runners is to neuter every male character.

Tam-didn’t kill any Trollocs at all. Almost one. 

Abel- is a total garbage person. Straight trash. Dumpster fire. 

 

Rand- shot one trolloc from behind…and whinged about Egwene or moped about. I wait an entire season of suck to watch Rand own some fools at the Gap only to have it handed off to some Accepted with extra car batteries through linking…which by the way they should have been on the wall. Not walking into an open plain like they’re about to drop a 90s Christian album. But this is just another example of the Endgame poster syndrome. 

 

Perrin- An utter failure. Killing his wife? I’m embarrassed for the writers. I would be irate as the actor. (The actors seemed to all be reading the books as they make the show too, I’d be livid seeing my character being shredded to ribbons in real time). 
 

Mat- Also would be mad as hell. His backstory is a total joke for no reason. Because apparently only those with trauma can convincingly show us they care about their sisters or friends. (Hollywood continuing down the “fathers suck” road). 
 

Lan- made to look a fool to lift up female characters. 
 

Loial- done dirty too. All his purpose traded away to Moiraine. Then unceremoniously stabbed by Fain? Who appears to have the dagger now?…soooo how we going to survive this one? My non-book friends love him to death but don’t understand why he’s even there…yeah, me neither. 

Agelmar- Made to be a disrespectful idiot who is then immediately put in his place by Moiraine. 
 

Lews Therin- Made out to be an arrogant man instead of a desperate man trying to save everyone and only had scary choices to choose from. They were on their last legs fighting the shadow and in his opinion the ladies just wanted to continue fighting a war of attrition they could not win. He was more of a drastic times call for drastic measures, which they conveniently left this out of the conversation.  
 

Hollywood is so hellbent on making women “cool” that they inadvertently put them on pedestals like with a pregnant lady taking out six companions, and then make all the men look like useless toolbags, so much so I don’t even know how I am supposed to like them. I don’t like them as heroes or antiheroes. They just suck. You had 8 episodes to develop their characters…we hardly got anything from them, and that which we did get was mostly a Telenovela… “Mariah! Porque!?” Perrin clutching his pearls with Loial. Both of which were some of the most ferocious fighters in the series. Why not have Loial sing them some axe handles and they make legit axes, talk about preserving life from evil…something. But burn me that was bad. They are such wusses. Bunch of mewling quims.
 

Now Rand just saunters off into the wilderness, isn’t treated like a lord, doesn’t develop further as a leader, doesn’t get the dragon banner, hasn’t been asked to hunt the horn or the dagger with Perrin and Mat? The story boarding is terrible. They either don’t know what they are doing or…they know exactly what they are doing, which would make it even worse. I don’t trust them as writers not to screw it up or inject their own personal nonsense into it. 

 

Lastly, for those who disagree that is fine. Enjoy it. But I find it hard to believe if they did similar changes to female characters in the same negative light, you wouldn’t be rioting. 

 

 

 

Yup, exactly this. Also extra points for some excellent one-liners. 

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Lots of book readers seem to be missing this.

 

Which is surprising as even some non-book readers have noticed his hand ornaments.

[NinjaPowers975]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Posting this from reddit but I don't have a direct quote for the sources but this has been gathered from a number of interviews and behind the scene things.

 

 

If true we certainly had a subpar episode compared to what we should have had. 

 

While I enjoyed episode 8 it was certainly disappointing to me as a book fan but I am not going to let it impact my enjoyment of waiting for season 2.

 

I haven't done a full rewatch of this episode yet, but I've watched some reaction videos, and mulled it over a little more, and this is pretty much where I stand.

 

This episode was definitely kind of a hot mess. Just as messy as episode one, or maybe even messier, but for different reasons.

 

It's pretty obvious that a lot of the problems come from last minute changes to the Fal Dara battle. They had been planning on doing a lot of practical effects for trollocs, and suddenly had to come up with an ending where there was basically zero melee fighting at all. Melee fighting requires people directly interacting with pure CGI creatures, which I'm sure is very time consuming and painstaking to pull off in a believable way. It's not something you can do at the last minute while your budget is evaporating under your feet.

 

So, the result is Fal Dara soldiers fighting Trollocs through arrow slits. And the women Channelers have to obliterate the trollocs before they get close enough to actually threaten anybody. But you still have to add some kind of danger to that scene to have any impact, so we get the whole burnout sequence.

 

Even so, the Nynaeve death fakeout was a terrible call. Same for the Loial death fakeout. Too many death fakeouts in general. They even had the fake Moiraine death during the blight dream sequence.

 

I think they knew they had a really messy episode and decided to throw everything and the kitchen sink in there to try and make it feel like a big deal. Smoke and mirrors, basically

 

The script for this episode had a lot of mistakes like you might see in the messy first draft of a work of fiction. There are things here that should've been cut before they made it to the screen,

 

That said, episodes 2 through 7 were all pretty well executed. I didn't love 6, but that was more about choices they made than execution. 

 

Episode one felt like it had been hacked to bits by studio execs, but the Winternight battle was great. Episode eight felt broken like they filmed the first draft of a script. The stuff with Rand and Moiraine was cool, and the burnout sequence was neat until the Nynaeve death fakeout, but everything else in the episode felt half-baked.

 

So, out of eight episodes, they managed to do solid work for six of them, and the other two had some good bits mixed in. That ain't bad. Plenty of shows started worse and eventually became really good.

 

But for me, this show isn't on some kind of bubble. I don't have any arbitrary line in my head where I'm going to bail if they don't measure up. Most TV shows go through good and bad patches during their run. Same with book series---Crossroads of Twilight exists, and some of the other "slog" books are tough to get through as well. But it takes more than that to make me jump ship.

 

I figure this show will be like any other long work of fiction. Some parts will be better than others, and one messy episode isn't going to matter that much in the larger scheme. Not for me, anyway.

 

[Arie]

22 minutes ago, Brytac said:

Surely GOT is relevant here?

 

They are both (until recently) taboo subjects for TV Series...and GOT absolutely blew the world away and set a benchmark.

 

They did it by being true to the books wherever they could for the most part in my opinion.

 

I wonder what the WOT were thinking after absorbing GOT and then deciding to blow away the source material for their own better version of characters and events?

 

In truth...its absolutely baffling me right now.  I was hoping for GOTesque new blockbuster(in the sense of another huge fantasy TV show..not in the sense of copying or pretending to be GOT).

 

The comparison's fine. But commentary on what could or should have happened in GoT starts pulling the conversation away from WoT when there is no content about what the forum topic is intended for.

[Windigo]

15 minutes ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

Even so, the Nynaeve death fakeout was a terrible call. Same for the Loial death fakeout. Too many death fakeouts in general. They even had the fake Moiraine death during the blight dream sequence.

 

...

 

The script for this episode had a lot of mistakes like you might see in the messy first draft of a work of fiction. There are things here that should've been cut before they made it to the screen,

The death fakeouts are a real problem, it is as if no one is keeping track over the season and each episode is like how do we add drama and show channeling?   Ok kill someone and heal them. 

The mistakes are growing, it is one thing when I see issues with cannon that have been changed,  but when the show is changing the rules and canon of the show it is a big problem.  They really need a show continuity editor. 

[NinjaPowers975]

4 minutes ago, Windigo said:

The mistakes are growing, it is one thing when I see issues with cannon that have been changed,  but when the show is changing the rules and canon of the show it is a big problem.  They really need a show continuity editor. 

 

Yeah, I agree. Nothing is going to piss off book fans more than playing it fast and loose with the magic rules. I get changing the rules---the magic system from the books is probably impossible to translate accurately---but they need tight standards for whatever they go with.

 

From what I've read it seems like Sanderson was helping some with this aspect, but he was cut out of the process on these episodes.

[7th age]

1 hour ago, Brytac said:

I dont know what to say to you....if you are going to argue that the changes in GOT are comparable to the ones ive just watched in WOT ep8....then I really cant say much to you.

 

What on earth have I just watched.

 

 

You mistunderstand me/possibly didnt read my earlier post.

Because I believe you just saw the Dragon Reborn (or rather the Dragon Reborn Reborn) shatter the (a???) seal of the Dark One and probably freeing the Forsaken as a result and there is no way in hell I could be ok with that change.

 

My point was that GoT worked where they stayed true to the books and didnt where the writers thought they knew better and this is similar to how I feel here.

 

(And if you really want to compare to GoT, we can gladly have a lengthy discussion  either via Discord or in a more appropriate thread here. Let me just say the fact that they managed to have 3 PoV characters raped within in the first 5 seasons, none of which were in the books (GRRM clearly stated that this is one of the things he would never do as he considers it supremly distasteful) and then had the audacity to let S. state in S8 that this is what made her the strong person she is today in my mind comes pretty close to Rafe making Rand fail completly and then defending this via the books/ensemble)

[dwn]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

Posting this from reddit but I don't have a direct quote for the sources but this has been gathered from a number of interviews and behind the scene things.

 

 

If true we certainly had a subpar episode compared to what we should have had. 

 

While I enjoyed episode 8 it was certainly disappointing to me as a book fan but I am not going to let it impact my enjoyment of waiting for season 2.

Whether or not this is exactly what happened (and it seems likely), it's very obvious they ran into production and budget problems for the last episode. It's truly unfortunate.

 

I think they could have avoided some of the sillier problems with different writing/directing choices, but in the long run I can overlook that if it improves next season.

 

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

It was meant to reference the only weave you can do when you are sleeping.  If The MAN is only partially dreaming I think it would be neat that he could only weave spirit until freed.

It makes sense. In the books Ishy made some compromise (that horrified the other FS) in order to remain half-sealed, and holding onto some link to T'A'R makes sense.

 

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

Lots of book readers seem to be missing [Rand faced Ishy rather than the DO at the eye].

I don't understand how they missed it either. If nothing else, compare his clothing with what LTT and Latra Posae wore in the cold open--even if you don't know about Ishy and the AoL, it's clear this is just some guy from the before-times!

 

With this and the whole Dragon mystery, book readers (and savvy viewers) should have been able to see what was going on. The show has made many incidental changes to the lore and order of events, but the themes and overall shape of the story has been kept pretty close to the books.

[Skipp]

14 minutes ago, 7th age said:

You mistunderstand me/possibly didnt read my earlier post.

Because I believe you just saw the Dragon Reborn (or rather the Dragon Reborn Reborn) shatter the (a???) seal of the Dark One and probably freeing the Forsaken as a result and there is no way in hell I could be ok with that change.

 

 

 

This is a theory of what happened in the book.  The "DO" planted several stories of a threat to the Eye meaning to lure the DR there.  After Rand does what he does in the book they find a shattered seal.  So even in the books this plot line has always been a theory as to why the DO pushed our heroes there.

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, dwn said:

Whether or not this is exactly what happened (and it seems likely), it's very obvious they ran into production and budget problems for the last episode. It's truly unfortunate.

 

I think they could have avoided some of the sillier problems with different writing/directing choices, but in the long run I can overlook that if it improves next season.

 

It makes sense. In the books Ishy made some compromise (that horrified the other FS) in order to remain half-sealed, and holding onto some link to T'A'R makes sense.

 

I don't understand how they missed it either. If nothing else, compare his clothing with what LTT and Latra Posae wore in the cold open--even if you don't know about Ishy and the AoL, it's clear this is just some guy from the before-times!

 

With this and the whole Dragon mystery, book readers (and savvy viewers) should have been able to see what was going on. The show has made many incidental changes to the lore and order of events, but the themes and overall shape of the story has been kept pretty close to the books.

The MAN also has the same knuckle ring/loop that LTT had.

[7th age]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

 

This is a theory of what happened in the book.  The "DO" planted several stories of a threat to the Eye meaning to lure the DR there.  After Rand does what he does in the book they find a shattered seal.  So even in the books this plot line has always been a theory as to why the DO pushed our heroes there.

 No, really cant agree here.

Perhaps Im seriously misremembering this because its been a while since i last read the end of EotW, but as far as I remember Aginor and Balthamel arrive before Rand ever channels. Not to mention the fact they find the Horn and Banner, they rescue the army and the whole winter to spring theme. This last one confirms to me (and Moiraine if i remember correctly thoug ofc shes an unreliably narrator), that this ends as a victory for the light.