tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Mailman]

49 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Was there even a reaction? I remember Lan just stating the fact that the bond was gone and transferred automatically to another AS and he wanted to send Nyn the certain message. I didn't feel anything for Lan. More towards Moiraine. The show seems to be preparing for that so much better.

Totally disagree there was genuine emotion in that scene in the books for me.

[Windigo]

On 12/18/2021 at 10:31 PM, expat said:

In the show, they both that they were going to die the next day.  I would give them a break about not waiting for a future commitment plot.

That's why I was disappointed that went this way with the show, but not disliking it. 

[JaimAybara]

On 12/19/2021 at 2:56 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

The cold open she thought was really cool, but she had no idea why she should care

I watched this episode with a close non-reader friend of mine and he said only stop if they miss something big. They did say, “ohhhh Rand’s mom is one of the assassin people.” Which I don’t know why everyone latches onto that word haha but oh well…I rewound to where the knight stands over Tigraine because they didn’t catch the hint and played it again, they still didn’t catch it, I paused it on the knight with the sword… “Is it the gleeman?” I couldn’t believe it. Haha, I think book readers A: Obviously get a lot more prior knowledge and because of this we pick up on way more, and B: We can spend most of our time specifically looking for Easter Eggs. 

[Windigo]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:06 AM, LoRd PyrO said:

The LOTR was able to follow the books so closely, why the hell can't WOT follow suit ???!!

Not really, quite a bit was changed,  but also most of the character arcs and plot is less complex.

[dwn]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Totally disagree there was genuine emotion in that scene in the books for me.

I agree that scene (when Lan feels his bond with Moiraine is gone) is very powerful in the books, but to get there takes a long, slow build up of the lore around Aes Sedai, Warders, and Malkier that just isn't going to work the same for a TV audience.

Edited December 21, 2021 by dwn

[Windigo]

On 12/19/2021 at 9:56 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

Yeah me too! I try and hunt out non-reader opinions online - my partner is only one person and part of me worries she's humouring me at times. But I think she is genuinely into the show at this point. 

 

Non-reader reactions are so interesting because you can look at what the TV show is doing successfully and what they're not doing well at all, whether we as book readers like it or not. It's sort of hard for me to know whether I like things in the show because it's scratching a Wheel of Time itch for me, or because it's actually good. 

The fact that TEotW is #6 on Sci-Fi Fantasy Amazon best sellers list is also a pretty good indication. 

[RhienneAgain]

10 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Didn't even think about that second point and I should have, since it's clear Rafe is treating books 1-3 as a singular story to adapt.  This fits VERY much with how he acts to Mat and Perrin in TGH.

 

 

I don't know that having important things happen to you makes you not a background character.  Look at Lan.  I think it's more the complete lack of focus on him in the first 2 books.  (Does he even have any PoV chapters?)

Also, with bringing Moraine to the big screen they are drawing in New Spring which she is the main character of (Or the deuteragonist at least) Having the advantage of knowing New Spring makes it very easy to flesh her out (And Lan).  Where as all of Mat's development and cool stuff is coming, so you can't draw on that as easily.

No harm in disagreeing, I absolutely feel other takes are valid opinions.  Just debating the point.  ?  As someone else said (And I'm bad with names, so my apologies on being vague)  us all discussing the changes and pro's con's, aspects of them is awesome.

Totally agree. I find it really interesting finding out how different people react to different characters. It just goes to show that whatever RJ or Rafe writes, people will respond to it differently.

[RhienneAgain]

7 hours ago, expat said:

I'm seeing a strong disconnect here about what constitutes a character's arc.  Some are arguing what they did while others are arguing about how their character's mental state (why they did those things) changed over the books.  Both Lan and Matt are examples of this.  One person remarks that Lan barely changed over the books while another says that he did great things so he had a strong arc.

 

Same statements with regard to Matt - little character arc over the first several books with the response of looks at all the important things he did/done to him.

 

If we can't agree on what constitutes the character arcs, we can't agree on how well the show represents them and how good were the decisions that drove the arc.  Currently the two sides are arguing past each other while thinking they are debating the same thing.  Not happening.

 

My opinion, things that the character did/had done to them are not important to their arc.  Why they did those things/why they put themselves in the position to have those things done to them constitute the arc.  I understand that others think that the character arcs include other things.  They might be right.

I agree with you on what constitutes a character's arc, but that hasn't always been what is being discussed. For example, when I was listed Mat's major plot points I was pointing that out to show he was a major character (not that they constituted his character arc).

 

Now, I actually tend to feel that as well as being a major character Mat does actually have an interesting arc in terms of development from early in the series, but clearly others disagree on that.

Edited December 21, 2021 by RhienneAgain

[RhienneAgain]

7 hours ago, expat said:

On the question of the visual media and the changes required.  Shakespeare could get away with a "To be or not to be" soliloquy, but that isn't the WOT (either the book or the show).  Matt's defining character was revealed best during his many POVs where he debated being selfish or a hero.  Even Shakespeare only had one of these per play.  So the show had to generate this tension in another way so when he did something heroic, it was understood that there was this inherent inner challenge.  Was changing his parentage the best way to do it?  Maybe not, but it does provide a background allowing viewers to understand that his heroic deeds weren't natural, but a choice. 

My take is the same affect could have been achieved while keeping the character more similar to the book version. It's equally out if character for showMat with his dark past and 'inner darkness' and bookMat with his lack of sense of responsibility and flippancy to do something heroic. They could have shown either personality on screen through a series of small scenes or reactions.

[Windigo]

4 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

Totally agree. I find it really interesting finding out how different people react to different characters. It just goes to show that whatever RJ or Rafe writes, people will respond to it differently.

 

What I love about this is how closely it follows the early book discussions.  If like me you remember the early discussions as books came out, there were Perrin, Rand, Mat, Egwene or Nynaeve haters, I do not think there were too many that agreed on liking all characters, there was always at least some faction that thought someone was annoying, boring or a waste of pages (Except Bela).  Much of that was often related to the ages, or real life situation of the reader at the time they read it. 
Even early I was a fan of Nynaeve, I remember many discussions on how she was not  just a pain or was not important.  
I think too that many of our reactions to the show portrayals probably align to our favorite or not so favorite book characters.  While looking at Nynaeve from show perspective only they are doing a good job of setting up her role, as a fan of hers in the books I find more issue with how they have changed her character than I do others I did not reading  about as much.   

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Windigo
clarified sentences

[Yojimbo]

9 hours ago, orbops said:

So you think they could compress 14 books into maybe 4-6 seasons at 8 episodes per season and still stay 100% true to the novel???

No.  Not what I said. 

[Mrs. Yojimbo]

16 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

That's not how the scene went.  Nynaeve accidently slipped that she's tired of them acting like she was a prize.  Then Rand points out that Perrin didn't show real interest in Laila until AFTER Rand and Egwene were an item.

This isn't, Perrin lost Laila then started connecting to Egwene.  This was Perrin always had an interest and put it away because she chose someone else.

 

(Non-book reader here)

I found these scene jarring and I fault the screenplay here: Until that moment, I hadn't seen anything that implied that Perrin had feelings for Egwene. I literally turned to my husband and said "Wait, what? Did I miss something? Is this from the books?"  I could see no reason for Nynaeve's accusation or Rand's. If we were meant to believe Perrin had these feelings, they should have shown his growing affection when they were together. If he doesn't have feelings, we at least should have shown some sort of behavior that would have inspired Nynaeve's and Rand's remarks.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

My take is the same affect could have been achieved while keeping the character more similar to the book version. It's equally out if character for showMat with his dark past and 'inner darkness' and bookMat with his lack of sense of responsibility and flippancy to do something heroic. They could have shown either personality on screen through a series of small scenes or reactions.

Possibly they could have him argue with his own reflection, or have sudden cuts between left profile and right profile arguing with each other?  However I have the feeling I have seen those done before somewhere...

Edited December 21, 2021 by bringbackthomsmoustache
spelling

[Sabio]

Perrin possibly liking Egwene is not from the books, in the books he treats her more like a Big Brother.  The timing of the arguement was odd.  If you go back and look there are scenes where Perrin gives looks to Egwene.  Like in the Ways when Rand and Egwene were laying down together, you see Perrin looking towards them.  The whole thing was a bit sudden and out of nowhere.  They might die then suddenly they are arguing about who might like Egwene,  Now I do think some of it from Rand was now that he is sure he is the Dragon he wants to drive the others away so they won't go to the Eye.  Looking at comments, reviews etc.  That does seem to be the most disliked and criticized scene of the episode.

[nsmallw]

22 hours ago, Deviations said:

No they are not angry people (thanks for the insult).  As a general state, I'm not angry either.  Abomination is perfect language for an on-line forum discussing a tv show.

 

Abomination - "a thing that causes disgust or hatred".  I think disgust fits.  I'm disgusted that they turned EF into a bawdy, dark town vs a town with resilient mostly upstanding folks recently come through a hard winter.  I'm disgusted that they turned Mat from  light hearted trickster into god knows what.  I'm disgusted that they took away the light hearted war of the sexes.  I'm disgusted that they took away the "I don't know about women, but I think Rand does, or maybe Perrin".  I'm disgusted that they turned Abel Cauthen into a drunk womanizer.  I could go on.

 

I'm sad about how they changed Lan and Nynaeve's courtship.  I loved it in the books and I wanted to see it played out on screen.  I could go on but as I've said before, we're all in our trenches.

It's okay to express a contrary opinion, it's okay to disagree as to the quality of the show vs book. The truth is some will love it, some will hate it, others will be ambivalent. The arguing back and forth, the tit for tat back and forth isn't helpful at all. Let's try and tone things down a bit. Just my individual opinion. 

[DigificWriter]

8 minutes ago, Mrs. Yojimbo said:

Until that moment, I hadn't seen anything that implied that Perrin had feelings for Egwene

 

Good, because you weren't supposed to.

 

The point of that argument wasn't that Perrin had always secretly been in love with Egwene, it was to show Nynaeve Jumping to false conclusions (just like Lord Agelmar had when Moiraine and the group arrived in Fal Dara) and prompting an already emotionally compromised Rand to lash out with baseless accusations.

[Gothic Flame]

If it needs an explanation then the scene was poorly done.

 

Then again, that's a broken recording by now.

[Mrs. Yojimbo]

23 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

To do something new with the story. The books still exist. The story you care so deeply about isn't worse because someone chooses to tell it in a different way.

 

Sure, the books still exist. But I don't think it's unreasonable for lovers of those books who have long looked forward to seeing their beloved story translated into film to be disappointed when that translation doesn't feel like their beloved story.  (For example, The Hobbit trilogy broke me heart.)

[Skipp]

24 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Perrin possibly liking Egwene is not from the books, in the books he treats her more like a Big Brother.  The timing of the arguement was odd.  If you go back and look there are scenes where Perrin gives looks to Egwene.  Like in the Ways when Rand and Egwene were laying down together, you see Perrin looking towards them.  The whole thing was a bit sudden and out of nowhere.  They might die then suddenly they are arguing about who might like Egwene,  Now I do think some of it from Rand was now that he is sure he is the Dragon he wants to drive the others away so they won't go to the Eye.  Looking at comments, reviews etc.  That does seem to be the most disliked and criticized scene of the episode.

It is kinda from the books.

 

Quoting @Joe B from the Season 1 discussion thread

 

"

I had a problem with also. However, after perusing EoTW, I can see where they are pulling it from:

 

In chapter 30, in conversation with Elyas:

“Egwene never dragged her feet in her life,” he protested. “She always does her share. I don’t despise her, I love her.” He glared at Elyas, daring him to laugh. “Not like that. I mean, she isn’t like a sister, but she and Rand. . . . Blood and ashes! If the ravens caught us. . . . If. . . . I don’t know.”¹

 

I always took this passage to mean Perrin wasn't "into" Egwene. After some thought, it could be interpreted that Perrin would be sliding into her DMs if she wasn't with Rand. Although I see it as pointless to the plot, it isn't completely fabricated. I guess it makes good TV drama...or maybe CW show material.

 

¹Jordan, Robert. The Eye of the World: Book One of The Wheel of Time (p. 412). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. "

 

While you can disagree with the interpretation you can't disagree that some people would interpret it as such.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skipp

[Mrs. Yojimbo]

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Good, because you weren't supposed to.

 

The point of that argument wasn't that Perrin had always secretly been in love with Egwene, it was to show Nynaeve Jumping to false conclusions (just like Lord Agelmar had when Moiraine and the group arrived in Fal Dara) and prompting an already emotionally compromised Rand to lash out with baseless accusations.

 

Okay, but they also didn't show us any reason why Nynaeve would jump to that conclusion. I can accept your interpretation may be correct, but the screenplay does a poor job of presenting it.

[Deviations]

20 hours ago, dwn said:

The lore details are different, but the thematic elements--incomplete information and trusting in the pattern--are the same. The lore around the Eye of the World is a mess in the books. It's no surprise they simplified it for the show.

Simplified?  That's being kind.  We have barely heard about the dark one.  Yes, the dark one is mentioned but it's not the menacing presence as in the book. Why even bother using the source material as a source?  Write a new story.

[CanisNoir]

I see a lot of people complaining about the Perrin\Egwene thing, and to be honest, I think it's a result of the show being a little too subtle. Here's my read on the scene.

 

Source Material: "I love Egwene, not like a sister, but she's Rand's" - It's a throw away line meant to show Perrins loyalty to his friend Rand.  Here is how I think they set this up to do basically the same thing, with a little more heavy lifting character wise.

 

What's Known: Egwene and Perrin grew up together in a very small isolated Mountain village and Egwene is quite pretty. I'm sure half of the Two Rivers boys crushed on her at some point, including Perrin.

 

Episode 1: Everyone is celebrating Beltine and Perrin is hanging out with Rand. Perrin's wife is at home in the forge jealous of Egwene (As told to us by Perrin when he goes home) having not gone to her Braiding Ceremony.  Nynaeve is the *only* person to make note of this and tell Perrin he should go home and be with her. Perrin goes home and immediately reassures his wife that he loves her to which she responds "I know."

 

What these scenes tell me: Perrin and Egwene are close friends and Perrin has complex feelings for Egwene, but Rand is his friend and so he's moved on and gotten married. (This is why he hangs out with Rand durring the Celebration instead of trying to get Egwenes attention). Perrins wife is being irrationally jealous and this is not the first time, which is why nobody but Nynaeve made a deal ou of it. This is also why Perrin knew exactly what was going on and immediately reassured her. Nynaeve made a big deal out of it because Nynaeve is the Wisdom and has probably had his wife come to her for advice\complaints etc... so she's hyperfocused on how Perrin acts and reads into it in favor of his wife.

 

Episode 3:  In episode 3 Perrin has the dream of his dead wife turning to him and saying "I know" indicating that in the wake of accidentally killing his wife and being stuck alone with Egwene, he is starting to question himself, his feelings and his motives. This is why the Wolf (protectors of Perrin) is eating her in the dream when she says this. That his wifes jealousy of Egwene was the last major event in their marriage before Beltine means it's natural Perrin would look to that as a reason he's to blame for her death. We also get a beat of Perrin being overly protective of Egwene because he feels responsible for his wife's death. 

 

Episode 5: Perrin confesses to Egwene that he killed his wife and she accepts him and comforts him reminding him that it wasn't his fault. She is the first and only person he's confessed to by Episode 7, so again, their friendship and bond get strengthened as they travel together for the month and she's his confessor. He still feels very protective and is also still questioning himself.

 

Episode 7:  In the ways, we see Perrin look at Rand and Egwene, then scratch his nose as if he's smelled something odd\unpleasant, makes a face and lays down to sleep. We as the audience know that Perrins scences are hightened beyond that of normal humans from the way he spotted the sign in the dark, so we know he's making a face at what he smells, not what he sees. Nynaeve, on the other hand, see's him look at Rand and Egwene, make a face and lie down. This reinforces his mistaken belief that Perrin is "in love" with Egwene. When Machin Shin hits, it preys upon Perrins guilt over his "complex" feelings and the fact that he still blames himself for his wifes death and says he killed her to get her out of the way. We know this isn't true, but there are seeds of truth there. He *does* have complex feelings, but he's *not* in love with her.

 

Now we get to the infamous scene: Rand, lashing out because he's coming to the conclusion he is the Dragon and all the bad things that means for him and once again projects "You're the only one who's ever left me" onto Egwene. Perrin, not knowing what Rand is dealing with see's his friend throw yet another "you left me" at Egwene, which at this time is getting old, seems stupid and petty, so being protecive of one friend, he calls his other friend out and says he should apologize. (Again, this is not how someone in love with the girl would act). Nynaeve who hasn't traveled with the group while Rand was complaining about Egwene leaving him multiple times in the past just sees Perrin butting in where she feels he has no reason to. She falls back on her misbelief as her temper gets the better of her and makes the situation awkward and worse. Which is why the camera lingers on her at the end of the scene as she tugs on her braid, holds back tears, then goes to follow Lan for comfort. 

At this point Rand is just lashing out, it's never really been a real thing which is why it catches him off guard. He knows it's not a real thing which is why when Perrin steps up to him and growls "The only woman I've ever loved is my wife" he just steps away. 

Both him and Egwene quickly dismiss it when they meet later, also indicating it's not a real thing. Likewise the next morning, Perrin and Egwene don't mention it and just move on from the awkwardness. That's how good of friends the Two Rivers people are.

 

So to me, I think the scene and build up could have been better considering the mass reaction to it, but because it shows us the following character traits, I'm perfectly okay with it.

 

Nynaeve: Let's her temper get the better of her and stubbornly acts on what she believes is true even if nobody else see's it. (also reinforced by her belief that the old Wisdom was turned away due to being a peasent when we know that's not what happened because of Suian"

Perrin: Has a thing for jealous women, loyal to his friends, and is blaming and questioning himself for his wifes death. Also, his eyes, nose and growl are wolf-like.

Rand: Has been struggling since the end of Episode 1 and all of his actions from that point until now are recontextualized. He is coming to terms with his fate.

 

Just my take on it. I don't agree with all the choices the show has made, but it's pretty obvious Rafe loves and knows the source, so I'm cool seeing where the show goes even though there are some changes I personally wouldn't have made.

[notpropaganda73]

6 minutes ago, Mrs. Yojimbo said:

 

Okay, but they also didn't show us any reason why Nynaeve would jump to that conclusion. I can accept your interpretation may be correct, but the screenplay does a poor job of presenting it.

 

Totally agree with this, it's been a feature of other things littered throughout the season where book lovers are filling in gaps that aren't actually there on in the "text" (i.e the show). I still have faith in the creators to pull it together but it's something I really hope they improve significantly on for S2. 

[KakitaOCU]

39 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

If it needs an explanation then the scene was poorly done.

 

Then again, that's a broken recording by now.

No, if you need an explanation that means the scene was poorly done for you.

Again, just because you couldn't find an answer doesn't mean there's not one there or that it was super hidden or required complex thought.

As is, it's coming off very much like you are expecting a literal translation of the material and everytime something else happens you immediately jump to "That's not what the books did, it's wrong, why did they do that?"  Which, valid as a subjective opinion, but as a stance to take when there are answers but you're not interested in seeing them, that's kind of eh...
 

7 minutes ago, Mrs. Yojimbo said:

 

Okay, but they also didn't show us any reason why Nynaeve would jump to that conclusion. I can accept your interpretation may be correct, but the screenplay does a poor job of presenting it.

 

Yes they did.  She saw Egwene's concern over Perrin, Perrin's concern over Egwene, Perrin's repeated looks to Egwene when she was with Rand.  There's plenty there to allow someone to jump to a conclusion.  There's as much there as the evidence to insist Moraine and Lan are intimate in the show.  I seem to recall people arguing heavily with me that it was "meant to be taken that way."  And we argued back that no, it was meant to be misunderstood that way and Nynaeve jumps to conclusions about romance.

 

8 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Simplified?  That's being kind.  We have barely heard about the dark one.  Yes, the dark one is mentioned but it's not the menacing presence as in the book. Why even bother using the source material as a source?  Write a new story.

 

Moraine flat out says the Dark One is stirring, Trollocs and a Fade massacre two small towns.  A fade chases Rand and Mat, a Darkfiend tries to kill them...  The constant dreams from Ba'alzamon.  Seems to me there's plenty of presence.  Honestly, the only place we don't see Dark One presence are in Egwene/Perrin's story, and it wasn't there in the books either.

 

 

 

[Deviations]

17 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

It is just that the writing team has a different assessment of the audience.   

Fair point.