tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[dwn]

7 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Im sorry, I'm not really getting the point on the use of visual medium. I understand what you're saying with regards to how the changes to Mat can support his motivation and potentially other changes to his character and plot that are to come. The bit I'm not getting is what about the switch to TV made this change necessary..? 

 

For Rafe's vision of the story these changes were necessary, but I don't think that equates to these specific changes being necessary because of the change in medium..? (Sorry, I may have misunderstood something here!)

In a book we get a detailed window into Mat (or any character) via his own thoughts and internal monologues. A visual medium simply can't do that--voiceovers in old-school detective shows notwithstanding. Therefore the show needs to use or create scenes and situations that clearly and succinctly reveal those character traits that could otherwise be missed, like Mat's selflessness and bravery.

Edited December 20, 2021 by dwn

[RhienneAgain]

2 minutes ago, dwn said:

In a book we get a detailed window into Mat (or any character) via his own thoughts and internal monologues. A visual medium simply can't do that--voiceovers in old-school detective shows notwithstanding. Therefore the show needs to use or create scenes and situations that clearly and succinctly reveal those character traits that could otherwise be missed, like Mat's selflessness and bravery.

Hmm. I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I feel the changes for Mat were necessary for those reasons. I think it would have worked ok on TV to show Mat as a silly teenager, then show how the dagger changes his personality.

 

I definitely see that the showrunners might think the changes to Mat's personality might be more appealing to their target audience, but I don't think his book character would have been impossible to translate to TV in at least a somewhat more intact fashion.

[Deviations]

36 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I really disagree. I think in an ensemble cast you quite often get a 'strong, silent' type that viewers respond well, too. It wouldn't work if all the characters were like that, but I think one out of a big group is fine. 

 

I think it's actually a well-enjoyed trope when you have a stoic, 'emotionless' character who then steps in to help in some way/shows emotional walls breaking down, etc.. Seeing Lan's transformation from someone who was married to death and duty into a mentor figure for Rand and loving husband for Nynaeve would have been beautiful on TV, in my humble opinion.

 

Points for the first person to name the character and movie.  (a GREAT adaptation of a book).

[RhienneAgain]

Last of the Mohiccans!

[Ralph]

39 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I really disagree. I think in an ensemble cast you quite often get a 'strong, silent' type that viewers respond well, too. It wouldn't work if all the characters were like that, but I think one out of a big group is fine. 

 

I think it's actually a well-enjoyed trope when you have a stoic, 'emotionless' character who then steps in to help in some way/shows emotional walls breaking down, etc.. Seeing Lan's transformation from someone who was married to death and duty into a mentor figure for Rand and loving husband for Nynaeve would have been beautiful on TV, in my humble opinion.

 

For sure

 

But we then would find it difficult to relate to his romance with Nynaeve happening so quickly, and to feel invested in it

[Deviations]

24 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think you are spot-on here. I've been reading and re-reading the books for about twenty years and I had so been looking forward to seeing my favorite characters on screen. Of course I'm going to be disappointed when the Lan I see isn't recognizable as the one I know from the books (going with Lan here as he seems to be one of the most divisive character modifications).

 

Having said that, I don't consider myself a 'purist' (don't think that's a very nice or helpful term, but I've seen it used on here ?). I absolutely love some of the changes - Logain's new material is fantastic for example.

Agreed.  I really like what they did with Logain (except the maniacal laughter).  I could have misinterpreted when I read that scene but I always through he was laughing at the absurdity of chaining him with Rand shining like a beacon from the courtyard wall.  I don't remember him seeming mad/tainted at any point.  Certainly despondent after he was gentled, but not mad. 

[Deviations]

11 minutes ago, dwn said:

In a book we get a detailed window into Mat (or any character) via his own thoughts and internal monologues. A visual medium simply can't do that--voiceovers in old-school detective shows notwithstanding. Therefore the show needs to use or create scenes and situations that clearly and succinctly reveal those character traits that could otherwise be missed, like Mat's selflessness and bravery.

Agreed, but I think you can do that without changing the tone of the character.  I can't think the showrunners are lazy so it must have been intentional.

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

@Deviations The show chose to use the tools of visual-medium storytelling to depict Mat's character in a way that in turn led to them changing the characterization of the people closest to him.

 

Trying to draw a line in the sand and say that those changes were unnecessary is to essentially deny the producers of the show the freedom to tell Mat's story in a way that made sense to them in the context of a television series as opposed to on the written page.

So this hits a bit of a sore spot that has grown as the story goes forward.  I don't care about the backstory changes although clearly they could have been done in a more constructive way.  Matt is a scamp, a rogue not the product of a dysfunctional family. Call me a worry wart but I am concerned that Matt's character is getting changed and not for the better.  We may find that him refusing to go into the Way's is a method of sharpening his essential characteristic which is that he does what has to be done and honoring his promises.  Sure he complains and dreams of lasses on his knee and a dice cup in his hand but he always shows up.  The show has him not showing up.  I appreciate and do not want to rehash all the discussion in the previous threads about why he may not have gone in the ways.   Those are pure speculation except for they lost the actor for some reason and he couldn't be in follow on episodes.  Anyway Matt not being the Matt I fell in love with by TGH will seriously diminish my enjoyment of this show.

[Deviations]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

For sure

 

But we then would find it difficult to relate to his romance with Nynaeve happening so quickly, and to feel invested in it

 

Who wasn't gutted when he died and she jumped off the cliff?  I don't think they spoke more than ten words to each other and they certainly didn't spend a night in bed.

 

I think they tried to modernize the story.  I really don't think the changes to tone or character were driven by the time available, the budget or the visual medium.

[Spiritweaver1]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

For sure

 

But we then would find it difficult to relate to his romance with Nynaeve happening so quickly, and to feel invested in it

Why does it have to happen so quickly.? Whatever happened to the slow burn,  forbidden love and all that.  To answer my own question I will speculate that the intent is to now play up the Nyn Mo conflict over Lan.  Mo has the close mentally  intimate relationship with Lan that Nyn can only dream of even though they did the deed (way to soon).  Anyway going so fast can take all the anticipation out of it.  Just think about Rand's sword lessons.  The first lesson started the first night out of EF for all of the boys in the books.  Anyway WAFO applies here,

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Why does it have to happen so quickly.? Whatever happened to the slow burn,  forbidden love and all that.  To answer my own question I will speculate that the intent is to now play up the Nyn Mo conflict over Lan.  Mo has the close mentally  intimate relationship with Lan that Nyn can only dream of even though they did the deed (way to soon).  Anyway going so fast can take all the anticipation out of it.  Just think about Rand's sword lessons.  The first lesson started the first night out of EF for all of the boys in the books.  Anyway WAFO applies here,

 

It happened just as quickly in the book. Just he turned her down. There was no slow burn. 

 

Why they changed it away from that, I don't know. But they haven't sped it up emotionally at all

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, Deviations said:

 

Who wasn't gutted when he died and she jumped off the cliff?  I don't think they spoke more than ten words to each other and they certainly didn't spend a night in bed.

Because of feeling emotionally invested in their relationship? 

 

7 minutes ago, Deviations said:

 

 

[VooDooNut]

Just now, Ralph said:

 

It happened just as quickly in the book. Just he turned her down. There was no slow burn. 

 

Why they changed it away from that, I don't know. But they haven't sped it up emotionally at all

And he does turn Nynaeve down (for a moment) in the TV show. When her walks away from her, that is him turning her down. Then she pushes a bit by entering his room and breaks down the last of his resolve. ?

[Sabio]

At least in the books Moiraine never had any romantic interest in Lan.  Her issue in the books was Lan had been her sword and shield for too long for her to just give him up.  It wasn't that she was jealous because Lan liked Nyn, it was she was angry his loyalty was being divided between Nyn and her.  She wanted him focused on her and their mission.

[KakitaOCU]

40 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Im sorry, I'm not really getting the point on the use of visual medium. I understand what you're saying with regards to how the changes to Mat can support his motivation and potentially other changes to his character and plot that are to come. The bit I'm not getting is what about the switch to TV made this change necessary..? 

 

For Rafe's vision of the story these changes were necessary, but I don't think that equates to these specific changes being necessary because of the change in medium..? (Sorry, I may have misunderstood something here!)

There's a slew of variables that aren't being taken into account.  Couple of obvious ones.

First the Simple and obvious:  In the books Mat is a person who plays a prank or two, then yells words in a funny language, then gets corrupted by a dagger, then is a jerk.  This is his entire arc until post healing in book 3.  It is boring, uninteresting, provides no actual development and tells us nothing about this character.

How invested will new viewers be in him?  You're asking him to be a Scrappy.

Second, the less obvious.  How do you get a quality caliber actor to sign on for a nothing spot in the background for 2-3 seasons?   You're not going to succeed unless you find an actor who's a book fan and wants that role specifically and that's not generally how actors work.  

Those are two really casual observations I can throw up.  If I spent time delving in I imagine I'd find more obscure and secondary points that I just don't think about because I'm not a TV producer.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

At least in the books Moiraine never had any romantic interest in Lan.  Her issue in the books was Lan had been her sword and shield for too long for her to just give him up.  It wasn't that she was jealous because Lan liked Nyn, it was she was angry his loyalty was being divided between Nyn and her.  She wanted him focused on her and their mission.

Are you saying that Moiraine is romantically interested in Lan in the show? I'm not getting that at all.

[Deviations]

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Because of feeling emotionally invested in their relationship? 

 

 

My point is that with Last of the Mohicans, they got us invested in the relationship with a few looks and a helping hand up a steep climb.  They didn't need more than what Jordan wrote.  They don't need to hit us over the head with this stuff.  The audience is capable of dealing with subtlety.

1. Lan being impressed by her tracking

2. Her being impressed by him finding her horse

2. A few looks

4. Her telling him "some men are strong enough, I know one such"

[Deviations]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

It is boring, uninteresting, provides no actual development and tells us nothing about this character.

Funny how many book readers were Mat fans from the early going.  Boring and uninteresting to you but not me or others.

 

I get it.  It's personal taste.  There are characters some people love that I don't.

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

The show chose to use the tools of visual-medium storytelling to depict Mat as a troubled young man with a bit of a dark streak, and used the brokenness of his home life as an Impetus for him being troubled and embracing the darker aspects of his personality. 

 

Its not my place to determine whether or not these decisions and the changes generated by them were necessary because I'm not the one who made said decisions.

 

I would also add that it's possible to disagree with the narrative choices that were made without calling into question the viability of those choices or the integrity of the people who made them.

Pulls on the the white shawl.  Logically the changes were not "necessary". The whole show is not "necessary".  As you say the team trying to tell Rafe's story is making decisions about how to adapt this story.  Those decisions are informed by factors that we can only speculate on. Logically it is a waste of time to speculate unless somebody has bugged the writers room or there is a mole.  In this case there is no possible way to effectively argue that making Matt a thief in the time of the show opening is necessary.  It was a choice of the team to make Matt a borderline dark friend instead of a scamp. The only thing we can do as viewers is discuss whether we like the changes as we go.  When the whole series is complete and the team's later intentions for Matt have been  revealed then the trial can begin in earnest.   We are basically saying the same thing.  IMHO the arc from carefree scamp to darkened by the dagger, healed  to redeemed is far more compelling than already damaged person, darkened by a dagger, not really healed to who knows what.  

[Sabio]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Are you saying that Moiraine is romantically interested in Lan in the show? I'm not getting that at all.

No, though it did seem like it at first when they took a bath together in episode 1 that maybe they were "close".  But some were suggesting Moiraine disliked Nyn out of jealousy. So any jealousy Moiraine had wasn't romantic in nature but that Lan was no longer hers fully anymore and upset he was being distracted at the wrong time.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sabio

[Deviations]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 IMHO the arc from carefree scamp to darkened by the dagger, healed  to redeemed is far more compelling than already damaged person, darkened by a dagger, not really healed to who knows what.

 

 

That is MHO as well.  Not that anyone hasn't figured that out already.....

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Deviations said:

My point is that with Last of the Mohicans, they got us invested in the relationship with a few looks and a helping hand up a steep climb.  They didn't need more than what Jordan wrote.  They don't need to hit us over the head with this stuff.  The audience is capable of dealing with subtlety.

1. Lan being impressed by her tracking

2. Her being impressed by him finding her horse

2. A few looks

4. Her telling him "some men are strong enough, I know one such"

Is it Hawkeye and Cora in the photo? It's been a minute since I've seen Last of the Mohicans.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 IMHO the arc from carefree scamp to darkened by the dagger, healed  to redeemed is far more compelling than already damaged person, darkened by a dagger, not really healed to who knows what.

Eh. I'll wait to see the whole arc to determine which one is more compelling. There's nothing inherently wrong with the changes to Mat's story.

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

No though it did seem like it at first when they took a bath together in episode 1.  But some were suggesting Moiraine disliked Nyn out of jealousy. 

That was my gut reaction too, at first, but upon revisiting it I see the bath scene as meant to convey how much trust Moiraine and Lan have for each other at this point in their journey, and how neither of them gives two trollocs about seeing each other naked in a bath.

 

Rosamund also talks, in a behind-the-scenes clip, about how important is was to show how deep Moiraine and Lan's relationship is from the start of the show. Scenes like this really sell that idea.

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Funny how many book readers were Mat fans from the early going.  Boring and uninteresting to you but not me or others.

 

I get it.  It's personal taste.  There are characters some people love that I don't.

Was that your experience?  Because I never particularly got the feeling Mat was liked until Book 3.  In fact I remember multiple sources including Tor.Com and the re-read threads and Dragonmount where it was a very common statement that Mat is rescued from the Scrappy Heap.

It's even specifically quoted on tvtropes: "Hate Plague: In Books 1 and 2, which made him a major Jerkass.  The two together soured a lot of the fandom on him, though after he got better, and particularly after he started being awesome, he got Rescued from the Scrappy Heap for many."

I'm glad you liked early Mat.  I found him obnoxious, worthless and pointless save as an anchor on Rand's back and an Aes Sedai hook to force Rand after the Horn.  I didn't even expect him to matter until Book 3 started turning him around.