tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[DaddyFinn]

44 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I don't know...where do you draw the line between 'adapting' and 'altering'? I would say 'adapting' means making the changes necessary for the switch between mediums.

For me personally, when they make huge changes that I hate. I hope they won't do that. ? 

 

49 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Is it adapting is Rafe has completely changed Lan's personality because he felt like it? Is it adapting if Rafe completely changed Lan because he felt Lan's version of masculinity was 'wrong' or 'unpalatable to current social norms'?

Has Rafe said those things?

[MasterAblar]

30 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

I can't remember where I talked about the Tam scene before, but I honestly think they were trying to show him as a skilled swordsman but that the Trolloc was too large/wild at close quarters. I think they failed with the scene, and should have included more Trollocs in that attack to show Tam's skill before numbers overwhelmed him and caused the injury. But I don't think the show were thinking "let's reduce Tam's skill". When you watch that scene, they make a big deal of showing the heron and then zooming in as he expertly slashes at the Trolloc. It says to me that they wanted to focus on the sword and that Tam's skill with it subsequently means the sword is important. It didn't work, but I think that's what they were going for. 

 

They just did a bad job of showing what they were trying to show with Tam (imo), whereas they did a successful job of showing what they wanted with Tigraine. 

 

Agreed, I think the scene was maybe a tad too short. You could clearly see Tam had great skill but the result made him look less than what he is. 

 

I think it's important to understand though that the scenes are not decided based on who looks cool and who doesn't and dumb stuff like what gender they are. The point of Tigraine kicking ass was also to show that the Aiel are exceptional warriors. The point of Winternight was to show the terrifying reality of darkspawn. Yes Tam gets the shortend of the stick here, and it could probably have been done better. But it's frankly very minor and hardly the point of the scene.

Edited December 20, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Yojimbo]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

There is no contradiction here. Try as hard as you may to find one.

I beg to disagree.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I beg to disagree.

Explain the contradiction then. I anticipated that there would be changes that would make the EF5 older and more sexually experienced. I failed to anticipate a specific scene between Rand and Egwene. How is that at all contradictory?

 

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Explain the contradiction then. I anticipated that there would be changes that would make the EF5 older and more sexually experienced. I failed to anticipate a specific scene between Rand and Egwene. How is that at all contradictory?

 

I already feel like I have done so.  So, no. I've had my say.    

[Deviations]

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Yes Tam gets the shortend of the stick here, and it could probably have been done before. But it's frankly very minor and hardly the point of the scene.

I think it was important.  Again, Rand comes to several realizations about Tam in EoTW.  The first happened in this scene.

 

O.K., they didn't have the cash to film this scene with multiple trollocs, all the chasing and hiding, the trolloc staying behind, rand killing it, etc.  Why did they have the cash to complete a brilliant scene with Tigraine?

 

The didn't have the solid writing, directing, camera, CGI for a scene with Tam but they did for one with Tigraine?

 

 

Bah.  They nerfed him.  They nerfed Abel, they nerfed Perrin (for the time being) and they've nerfed Lan to oblivion.  Wait.  That's too strong.  They nerfed Lan big time.  

[CivBrit]

Once I accepted that this is an adaptation that (thus far) keeps the major plot beats but is otherwise willing to make major changes, I decided to enjoy the show on its own terms. And up until ep. 7 I have thoroughly been enjoying it. Given how long the source material is, they had no choice but to shorten or omit certain events, and hurry along the character development.

 

I had issues with this episode though. After all the work they put into building up the identity of the Dragon as a mystery, the reveal of it being Rand felt rushed and unsatisfying. I thought the idea to keep it a mystery throughout the first six episodes was a smart move, but I assumed the reveal would come via a sudden display of power from Rand (similar to Nynaeve's moments). Instead we learn through a series of hurried flashbacks that Rand had information that we the viewer were not privy to. That felt like a cheat to me. My wife (a non book reader) also commented "So Rand is the Dragon Reborn? But he seems so whiney and petulant", and I have to agree with her. I hope they put this love triangle drama aside going forward and make Rand's character more likeable.

 

Secondly, I am puzzled as to why Moiraine (and Siuan) are planning to march the Dragon straight to the Dark One's prison for a confrontation before the Dragon has had any training or practice whatsoever with the power. What is Moraine hoping to accomplish? Her character in the books would be horrified at the idea of sending an untrained and completely inexperienced Dragon to fight the Dark One.

 

Finally, I really hope soon we get at least one or two scenes to demonstrate what a hyper-competant and dangerous warder Lan is. I'm fine with this less stoic, more emotional portrayal and I think the actor is fantastic, but he does not come across as the most dangerous warrior alive. 

 

Overall I am thrilled that we're getting a big budget adaptation of a beloved book series, I just found this episode disappointing.

[Sabio]

27 minutes ago, CivBrit said:

Secondly, I am puzzled as to why Moiraine (and Siuan) are planning to march the Dragon straight to the Dark One's prison for a confrontation before the Dragon has had any training or practice whatsoever with the power. What is Moraine hoping to accomplish? Her character in the books would be horrified at the idea of sending an untrained and completely inexperienced Dragon to fight the Dark One.

The logic of the DO is at his weakest so we should face him now makes sense.  I agree that the logic of take the Dragon up there to face him and assume he will know what to makes little sense.  Sure you want to face the DO when he is weak, but assuming Rand will know immedietly what to do is big stretch.  They seem to have totally tossed out all the prophicies about the Dragon and what he must do out the window.  What about the Stone must fall etc..  They seem to just want to go right to the Last Battle immedietly.

 

Moiraine does feel guilty. hence her encounter with the Black Wind saying you know you're sending them to their deaths stuff.  She knows she might be leading both Rand and herself to quick deaths.  But Moiraine is very the ends justify the means oriented.  If Rand dies but saves the world she will accept that and deal with the consequences for it later.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

17 minutes ago, CivBrit said:

Secondly, I am puzzled as to why Moiraine (and Siuan) are planning to march the Dragon straight to the Dark One's prison for a confrontation before the Dragon has had any training or practice whatsoever with the power. What is Moraine hoping to accomplish? Her character in the books would be horrified at the idea of sending an untrained and completely inexperienced Dragon to fight the Dark One.

I think it's meant to mirror the arrogance that she decries at the opening. They fundamentally misunderstand who the Dragon is and what his purpose is.

[Ralph]

I believe a major motivation of the team developing the show has been to try to create an emotional connection between the viewers and what is going on on screen. 

A lot of the changes relate to this. For example, for R&E to have a mature relationship adds a lot to the emotional connection people will have with what is going on between them. Thar is why it has see sawed more than in the books as well. 

You may think they have failed at this, you may think nobody could connect with Rand as portrayed, etc etc, but I don't believe the motivation was to modernise, or even to make the whole thing more mature, just this. 

 

I think the same about Lan. They wanted to make him a character that viewers connect with. And iirc several people on the non-readers thread have said Lan is their Co-viewers favourite character, in which case it has succeeded. 

 

 

BTW, I believe the shouting petulant Rand was intended to be indicative of him brooding over Tam's fevered disclosure, and was intended to be showing a character change from Ep1. Also possibly a channelling reaction as described by Thom - look at his suspicion of Thom in Ep4. 

 

To the contributor who queried unplanned pregnancies, I don't see why that is more of a question on the show than on the book, where, as stated, many cultures including the Aiel have a much freer attitude to non-conjugal sex. At least in the show it has only been shown between individuals developing a relationship. 

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

I'm disgusted that they turned Abel Cauthen into a drunk womanizer.  I could go on.

I disliked that more for what it said of the rest of the village than for what it said of the person.  In the book Emond's Field (not just B1, the impression when re-visiting) I get the impression that someone who tried that sort of thing would have been ostracised.  

[Sabio]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

The didn't have the solid writing, directing, camera, CGI for a scene with Tam but they did for one with Tigraine?

 

I wish the Tam fighting trollocs in the cabin had been more, but in the end Tam fight was a lesser plot line than Tigraine. How Tigraine got to where she was and Tam finding her was much more important than Tam fighting off some trollocs.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sabio

[dwn]

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

I don't know...where do you draw the line between 'adapting' and 'altering'? I would say 'adapting' means making the changes necessary for the switch between mediums.

 

I think we're beginning to get into more subjective territory when we look at the treatment of Lan. Is it adapting is Rafe has completely changed Lan's personality because he felt like it? Is it adapting if Rafe completely changed Lan because he felt Lan's version of masculinity was 'wrong' or 'unpalatable to current social norms'?

 

I'd say he adapted Lan because someone who barely talks, and who has only minor development over 14 books, wouldn't work as a one of the main characters in an ensemble TV show.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

56 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

The point of Winternight was to show the terrifying reality of darkspawn.

Shadowspawn - darkspawn are something from a different series (admittedly of a similar appearance and nature but still).  

[DigificWriter]

5 minutes ago, dwn said:

I'd say he adapted Lan because someone who barely talks, and who has only minor development over 14 books, wouldn't work as a one of the main characters in an ensemble TV show.

 

Yep.

 

The 'purists' don't seem to be willing to let the people making the show actually use any of the tools of visual-medium storytelling and instead want a 'purely as written' depiction of this world and story, which is something that can't exist.

[dwn]

33 minutes ago, CivBrit said:

Secondly, I am puzzled as to why Moiraine (and Siuan) are planning to march the Dragon straight to the Dark One's prison for a confrontation before the Dragon has had any training or practice whatsoever with the power. What is Moraine hoping to accomplish? Her character in the books would be horrified at the idea of sending an untrained and completely inexperienced Dragon to fight the Dark One.

It's not far off Moiraine's logic (or leap of faith) in going to the Eye in the books. She had three ta'veren, one of whom was the Dragon Reborn, and an apparent threat to the Eye of the World. She decided that the best course of action was to bring them together and hope the pattern knew what it was doing.

[Deviations]

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

For example, for R&E to have a mature relationship adds a lot to the emotional connection people will have with what is going on between them.

Granted, it's an extreme example but they didn't do this with Harry Potter.  Those characters were spot on to the youngsters portrayed in the books and yet, film audiences connected to them very well. (young and old alike).

Edited December 20, 2021 by Deviations

[Deviations]

1 minute ago, dwn said:

It's not far off Moiraine's logic (or leap of faith) in going to the Eye in the books. She had three ta'veren, one of whom was the Dragon Reborn, and an apparent threat to the Eye of the World. She decided that the best course of action was to bring them together and hope the pattern knew what it was doing.

Its fairly different in that a threat to the eye of the world wasn't seen as directly going to battle the dark one.  They went to talk to the green man.

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Yep.

 

The 'purists' don't seem to be willing to let the people making the show actually use any of the tools of visual-medium storytelling and instead want a 'purely as written' depiction of this world and story, which is something that can't exist.

 

I don't think the people who have remained involved in the conversations on this site are saying this. 

 

It is more that they cannot fathom why some of these changes have occurred, because they see them as unnecessary, since they love the books so much. 

 

Some of them are therefore ascribing nefarious agenda-driven motives to the show runners, which obviously creates a self-consuming spiral as the show continues. 

 

What I don't understand is the ones who cannot conceive of the possibility that others do not see it the same way as themselves. 

[Ralph]

5 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Granted, it's an extreme example but they didn't do this with Harry Potter.  Those characters were spot on to the youngsters portrayed in the books and yet, film audiences connected to them very well. (young and old alike).

 

In HP there was no relationship that was relevant to the show until near the end. It is fundamentally a story about adolescent schoolchildren.

 

Here RJ wrote about a breakdown in a relationship between R&E. He tried to create an emotional impact on R because of this. They have taken that and made it more visible. 

 

I would compare it more to LOTR showing the Arwen Aragorn relationship. Which I actually disliked more than these changes in WOT. It was done to create an emotional connection with them, which the books never did

Edited December 20, 2021 by Ralph

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Here RJ wrote about a breakdown in a relationship between R&E. He tried to create an emotional impact on R because of this. They have taken that and made it more visible.

The impact in the books was miniscule for me. The show relationship has already made me cry once or twice and we haven't even got to the break-up yet.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Here RJ wrote about a breakdown in a relationship between R&E. He tried to create an emotional impact on R because of this. They have taken that and made it more visible. 

Exactly correct. 

And don't forget how heavily people criticized Egwene's reaction to Rand at the end of aMoL. Early focus on that relationship can pay big dividends at the end of the series, because it will provide for better drama when Rand and Egwene meet at the end.

[dwn]

5 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Its fairly different in that a threat to the eye of the world wasn't seen as directly going to battle the dark one.  They went to talk to the green man.

The lore details are different, but the thematic elements--incomplete information and trusting in the pattern--are the same. The lore around the Eye of the World is a mess in the books. It's no surprise they simplified it for the show.

[KakitaOCU]

11 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Its fairly different in that a threat to the eye of the world wasn't seen as directly going to battle the dark one.  They went to talk to the green man.

And what exactly do you think Moraine anticipated in the books?

What would be a threat to the pool of Saidar and the Green Man.  She's been there, she knows the place is impossible to find and highly defended and blocked from most access.

She doesn't spell it out but in her mind it was always going to be the Forsaken or worse and the only hope was a group of Ta'veren including the Dragon twisting the pattern to win.

[DigificWriter]

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I don't think the people who have remained involved in the conversations on this site are saying this. 

 

It is more that they cannot fathom why some of these changes have occurred, because they see them as unnecessary, since they love the books so much. 

 

All of these attitudes are, I believe, rooted in an unwillingness to let the producers of the show retell the story using the tools of visual-medium storytelling.