tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

On a very surface level the Green Man doesn't really matter.

 

On a deeper level he's extremely important, being the last living (non-forsaken) creature from the Age of Legends, and was a witness to both the bore AND the breaking, and all that came out of that. 

 

His link between the Aes Sedai of old, the Jenn Aiel, and Rand (as their direct descendent) is a passing of the torch of the Age of Legends. 

 

His death represents the ending of an Age and the turning of the wheel. A true harbinger of the coming of the Shadow.

 

Edit: Which is to say, matters not at all for the t.v. series.

None of that matters for Narrative purposes in the books either.

All of that symbolism is very solid world building that I like a lot.

If someone were to read a version of EotW where when they get to the garden Moraine infodumps instead of Sohmesta, then only Aginor shows up and fights.   Then loial gives his speacha bout the garden not failing instead of treebrother not failing...

Nothing would change in the overall story or people's understanding other than taking out Sohmesta from the Way Back Machine. 
 

Just now, Dead Warder said:

However you mentioned that they serve no direct purpose in the books <below> which doesn't make sense because it's again, original sourced storytelling. Much like wasps and yellowjackets, I have no idea why they exist, to me they serve no purpose but the Creator made them for some reason which is beyond my understanding... and therefore they continue to remain.

 

He put them in for the reasons Wheel of Juke stated.  But those are world building side pieces that give a deeper view of the world and help make it more real.  Which is not the same as importance to the narrative of the actual story.

Glorfindel serves a purpose in LotR.  He establishes the more powerful Elven Lords are present and aware of the situation.  It's a passing of the torch from the Silmarillion to the current age of heroes.  But replacing him with Arwen did nothing to the narrative itself.

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[dwn]

When it comes to an adaptation, any changes that facillitate production or are obvious due to the different medium just don't bother me all that much--particularly if I can come up with a plausible reason behind the change in just a few seconds. Some examples:

 

Having a variety of fast-travel means works in a book, but is just confusing without a ton of exposition. This episode shows Moiraine using some kind of gateway ter'angreal, which superficially acts like the Waygate we see later on--obviously meant to introduce the concept of fast-travel in a clear and concise fashion, since it's something that comes up repeatedly throughout the story.

 

We see more of Logain to emphasise what happens to men who can channel, which gives added weight to Thom's warning, helps show what the Dragon Reborn means to the world, and foreshadows what awaits the Dragon Reborn in the long run.

 

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

 

Moving scenes from Caemlyn and Fal Dara to Tar Valon reduces one-off locations, which simplifies production and lets them spend more on an important place like Tar Valon.

 

The scenes in The Tower (including those between Siuan and Moiraine) are mostly reworked/relocated ideas from other books (New Spring and TGH), and lay important groundwork for Aes Sedai, Warders, and the various Tower factions and politics--all of which are critical to the overall story.

 

Leaving the horses at the Waygate was obviously done to reduce production cost.

 

Mat not entering the Ways is likely due to the actor leaving. Yes it's unfortunate, but these things happen. Should they merge TGH and TDR to some degree, it puts him in a good place to pick up his story later on.

Finally, while I agree that some scenes and edits are a bit clunky, these episodes are already near or over an hour long--which is basically giving us ~11 typical TV episodes this season. Sure it would have been better with more time in places, but that just wasn't practical.

 

Thus far, almost all the changes have been to: reduce cost and complexity; compress the story for a different medium; simplify the lore and worldbuilding for a different audience; and work around unforeseen hiccups in production. That seems reasonable to me.

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, dwn said:

When it comes to an adaptation, any changes that facillitate production or are obvious due to the different medium just don't bother me all that much--particularly if I can come up with a plausible reason behind the change in just a few seconds. Some examples:

 

Having a variety of fast-travel means works in a book, but is just confusing without a ton of exposition. This episode shows Moiraine using some kind of gateway ter'angreal, which superficially acts like the Waygate we see later on--obviously meant to introduce the concept of fast-travel in a clear and concise fashion, since it's something that comes up repeatedly throughout the story.

 

We see more of Logain to emphasise what happens to men who can channel, which gives added weight to Thom's warning, helps show what the Dragon Reborn means to the world, and foreshadows what awaits the Dragon Reborn in the long run.

 

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

 

Moving scenes from Caemlyn and Fal Dara to Tar Valon reduces one-off locations, which simplifies production and lets them spend more on an important place like Tar Valon.

 

The scenes in The Tower (including those between Siuan and Moiraine) are mostly reworked/relocated ideas from other books (New Spring and TGH), and lay important groundwork for Aes Sedai, Warders, and the various Tower factions and politics--all of which are critical to the overall story.

 

Leaving the horses at the Waygate was obviously done to reduce production cost.

 

Mat not entering the Ways is likely due to the actor leaving. Yes it's unfortunate, but these things happen. Should they merge TGH and TDR to some degree, it puts him in a good place to pick up his story later on.

Finally, while I agree that some scenes and edits are a bit clunky, these episodes are already near or over an hour long--which is basically giving us ~11 typical TV episodes this season. Sure it would have been better with more time in places, but that just wasn't practical.

 

Thus far, almost all the changes have been to: reduce cost and complexity; compress the story for a different medium; simplify the lore and worldbuilding for a different audience; and work around unforeseen hiccups in production. That seems reasonable to me.

 

I agree 100% with your post as I think these all have justifications. I'm not sure if the final payoff/execution works as well in the end on some parts of it, and that may come down to directing/writing/editing and not the actual idea changes in themselves.

[ArrylT]

40 minutes ago, Wassup said:

To your point I changed to red font:  There are probably original shows that have divided viewers in the beginning.  However, those who are disappointed or do not like it will just walk away and not even discuss it.  The "re-creation" has a fan base that will be divided and dig their trenches. 

 

I think that most shows/films with a dedicated fan base likely always have some division, and it is always hard for an "outsider" to have a good perspective on how the fandom feels, if they themselves are not focused on it or paying real attention.

 

Example:   I've read the books 10+ times but until a month ago I never made any attempt to engage with the online WOT community - in part because I didnt realize it was there (probably because it wasnt big enough if I wasnt looking for it).  Only when it came time for me to start getting hyped up for the show did I start noticing how much WOT fandom there is.  

 

Ergo if I had simply watched the show on my own I'd have no real clue.   I am just starting The Boys, and have zero interaction with any The Boys fandom (if there is one), but for all I know someone could have felt just as strange as I did when 

 

Spoiler

a character named Robin was fridged worse than Laila very early in Ep1

 

Or maybe it was not something people discussed.    Doubtful ?

 

Anyways I know i am rambling.     I do think that Ep6 is likely the most divisive episode yet, and feel confident 7 & 8 will be a lot less divisive.   

 

I own all the LOTR & ASOIAF books but have never engaged with those fanbases except if my own friends were fans of those books/shows.   But I have heard & am aware vaguely of how discordant the fandom was with them at times.   However until I actually dive into the "research" I was not aware how much so it was at times.

 

Long story short - I do think that WOT is not alone in this aspect of division - it just feels more real because it is in the present and the internet is a lot more prevalent today than 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, so the division would not be as noticeable to outsiders.   Plus it is happening to "US" rather than them - although I suppose condolences are in order for anyone who is an active member of all three fanbases for the past 20 years.    How did you keep from going insane? ?

 

Further, I hope that anyone who is not enjoying the show can go back in 3-5-10 years and take a 2nd look at it and feel differently.  The passage of time definitely can help.    Also I hope that the show improves its editing & pacing in S2.  ?

 

Last but not least, imho the WOT community, as divided as it might be at times, cannot hold a candle to how toxic or trollish some other communities can get at time (such as NFL Fanbases).  No that is not a challenge. ?

 

@Dead Warder @Wassup and anyone else interested I've shared an article about how divided some GOT fans were over the years on different plot lines on the WOT vs Other Fantasy adaptation thread.

[Gothic Flame]

57 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I was really hoping to see the Someshta, if only because that gave Loial one of his best moments int he entire series.   But I have come to accept he will almost certainly not make the cut.   

Well, if Loial isn't there...

Which is a shame. Another part of "world building" is revealing bits of the past. 

Still they're consistent in that...lack.

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, dwn said:

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

This is actually one scene I have some issue with.  Not enough to grump too much, but a point where I went "Why did they...?"

We could have established the Oath Rod by showing a flashback or Siuan or Moraine's raising.  Which wouldn't have taken too much time, though it would have forced casting a new Amyrlin for just that scene.

My concern here is that will people take it badly of Siuan when we later on find out the side affect of the oath rod?  Don't get me wrong, Siuan doesn't KNOW about the side affect at this point, and even by the end of the series their solution to the side affect isn't to stop using the rod, so it's not outright bad, but as we see, some people take knee-jerk reactions to things without thinking them through.

[dwn]

24 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I agree 100% with your post as I think these all have justifications. I'm not sure if the final payoff/execution works as well in the end on some parts of it, and that may come down to directing/writing/editing and not the actual idea changes in themselves.

 

Indeed. I think we've already seen some cuts/changes that work better than others--the departure from the Two Rivers in episode 1 felt particularly jarring to me.

[dwn]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

This is actually one scene I have some issue with.  Not enough to grump too much, but a point where I went "Why did they...?"

We could have established the Oath Rod by showing a flashback or Siuan or Moraine's raising.  Which wouldn't have taken too much time, though it would have forced casting a new Amyrlin for just that scene.

My concern here is that will people take it badly of Siuan when we later on find out the side affect of the oath rod?  Don't get me wrong, Siuan doesn't KNOW about the side affect at this point, and even by the end of the series their solution to the side affect isn't to stop using the rod, so it's not outright bad, but as we see, some people take knee-jerk reactions to things without thinking them through.

 

Well, ageless look has been abandoned by the show (for obvious reasons), and the lifespan-limiting didn't really have any direct impact on the plot. (IMO, it was unfortunate the books left that so unresolved.)

 

I do think this scene will likely tie into Siuan's eventual downfall. She was known for being overbearing and running roughshod over the Hall. However, since the viewers know it's a ruse between her and Moiraine, I think it will make her more sympathetic rather than less.

[KakitaOCU]

Hadn't even thought about taking the lifespan thing out.  That makes sense.

A flaw of mine, while I can usually understand why things get changed or removed when I think about it, I almost never instinctively think about what should be removed ahead of time.

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Chadouken]

1 hour ago, Dead Warder said:

Much like wasps and yellowjackets, I have no idea why they exist, to me they serve no purpose but the Creator made them for some reason which is beyond my understanding... and therefore they continue to remain.

 

The existence of wasps is proof that god does not exist.

 

And if he does, he f***ing hates us.

[ArrylT]

9 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Thank you kindly - I will have to jump back over there for a gander.

 

I loathed GoT in both the books (only made it part way through A Clash of Kings) and the show (I quit half way in Season 2). I can't righfully make a comparison between GoT and WoT.

That is fair, I only watched 3 episodes the 1st time around.  Was the pandemic (and the iceberg speed of the books getting written) that helped me start fresh.  

[Jaysen Gore]

I'm not gonna quote everyone and take pieces of context, but there's lots of good stuff on this page.

 

The big thing for me with the Horn and the Green Man isn't that they really are necessary to the plot, it's that they're necessary to the setting. In a few little scenes, you not only get the true end of the AoL (well noted above), but you also have the means of showing that the Rhuidean visions aren't delusions, they're real memories.  You get the links to the turning of the wheel, and the fact that souls can be so great that they are marked out for glorious purpose by the Wheel. From there, you get the phenomenal character moments of Artur / Mat, Olver / Noal, Heroes / Merrilor, and Rand / Hawkwing. And you get the Deus Ex Machina required to free Egwene from the Seanchan.

 

They embed more than 3,000 years of nebulous history in the concrete now, and adds to the weight of the tale immeasurably.  Glorfindel was mentioned, and was a good example of this kind of inclusion. It ties the beginning and end together, and its all related. History is all a piece. (Side note: the weight of years that hit me the first time I realized that Galadriel was the granddaughter of the very first High King of the Elves and more than 5,000 years old was palpable, and I felt every day)

 

Wasps and Yellowjackets exist as a means of balancing out the insects they prey upon. Ask our friends in Australia what it's like to have rabbits exist without predators. And to remind humans to be careful of even the small things in nature.  Both meaningful contributions from the little f*ckers.?

 

For debates around the merits of an original show, go back and look at the furor around The Sopranos, and whether or not it was right to glorify a criminal

 

I do not think I have detected much intentional trolling (trollocing?) on these threads. I believe the opinions held are truly held, and not just to rile people up. So everyone here seems to legit care that the TV show is as good as they can make it. While we all weigh the importance of what's missing differently, we are all consistent in that we want it closer, more detailed, and fuller at all times. So in that, we are one community. Unlike NFL fans. ? 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Jaysen Gore

[Wraith235]

2 hours ago, dwn said:

When it comes to an adaptation, any changes that facillitate production or are obvious due to the different medium just don't bother me all that much--particularly if I can come up with a plausible reason behind the change in just a few seconds. Some examples:

 

Having a variety of fast-travel means works in a book, but is just confusing without a ton of exposition. This episode shows Moiraine using some kind of gateway ter'angreal, which superficially acts like the Waygate we see later on--obviously meant to introduce the concept of fast-travel in a clear and concise fashion, since it's something that comes up repeatedly throughout the story.

 

We see more of Logain to emphasise what happens to men who can channel, which gives added weight to Thom's warning, helps show what the Dragon Reborn means to the world, and foreshadows what awaits the Dragon Reborn in the long run.

 

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

 

Moving scenes from Caemlyn and Fal Dara to Tar Valon reduces one-off locations, which simplifies production and lets them spend more on an important place like Tar Valon.

 

The scenes in The Tower (including those between Siuan and Moiraine) are mostly reworked/relocated ideas from other books (New Spring and TGH), and lay important groundwork for Aes Sedai, Warders, and the various Tower factions and politics--all of which are critical to the overall story.

 

Leaving the horses at the Waygate was obviously done to reduce production cost.

 

Mat not entering the Ways is likely due to the actor leaving. Yes it's unfortunate, but these things happen. Should they merge TGH and TDR to some degree, it puts him in a good place to pick up his story later on.

Finally, while I agree that some scenes and edits are a bit clunky, these episodes are already near or over an hour long--which is basically giving us ~11 typical TV episodes this season. Sure it would have been better with more time in places, but that just wasn't practical.

 

Thus far, almost all the changes have been to: reduce cost and complexity; compress the story for a different medium; simplify the lore and worldbuilding for a different audience; and work around unforeseen hiccups in production. That seems reasonable to me.

yup ... and aside from 2 handfuls of individuals in this thread these are not the issues that are causing the biggest complaints 

for the most part we expect this type of thing 

its the fundamental changes to the World, The History, the One Power, the way the Wheel Works, The Prophecies, and the pandering to current Socio-Political constructs- that are making the biggest waves 
 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Wraith235
English is hard mmmmkay

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I do not think I have detected much intentional trolling (trollocing?) on these threads.

You're welcome. ?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You're welcome. ?

Now can you fix your quote to be intentional instead of international? I like having people from other countries around ?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Jaysen Gore said:

Now can you fix your quote to be intentional instead of international? I like having people from other countries around ?

Done.

[WheelofJuke]

Meanwhile, domestic trollocs run rampant...:p

[Jaysen Gore]

13 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

its the fundamental changes to the World, The History, the One Power, the way the Wheel Works, The Prophecies, and the pandering to current Socio-Political constructs- that are making the biggest waves 
 

I think once <deleted> is revealed to be the DR, most of those are going to blow away. The references to female dragons (which I took to mean False Dragons) are the only material changes to history or geography I've noticed, if you don't count stuff that's flat dropped for time. The prophecy confusion leading to <deleted> won't matter.  We may even get scenes pointing out how accurate the Cycle is, along with new Foretellings from the Finns and the Min to help drive the plot forward, and align more closely to the books. The reincarnation argument is no more provable in WoT than it is in any real world religion, and doesn't impact much in the story - plot, theme, or setting - so don't dwell on it.

 

As for the pandering, I'll take that in two parts:

1. The homosexual behaviour of the Aes Sedai and the Warders is in text canon, and believable in both the cultural context of the AS, and in the emotional resonance caused by the bond itself. Certainly much more in text than it was in the Pern novels, which had the exact same kind of relationships 25 years earlier. And it's much more believable than, say, Frank Miller's 300 NOT having homosexuality in it. I don't think of this as pandering

2. The overemphasis of women in positions of power outside the AS. I grant that is being shown more, by director's choice. But a thought occurs to me as I type this. The culling (as Adeleas I think called it) of strong men who can channel may have also been culling other male traits out of the population. Not that I'll credit RJ2 with following that logic, but in a society where men were not to be trusted for 3,000 years, it's a wonder the whole continent isn't Ebou Dar. Or Y the Last Man, or The White Plague. It emphasizes that the world is out of balance and desperately needs fixing. And if you're taking a current day sub-text out of that, you may want to consider why.

 

Having said all that, if <deleted> isn't clearly a channeling Dragon Reborn by X-mas morning, I'll be upset enough at Shai'tan Clause to change my views on a lot of this.

[Wraith235]

41 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think once <deleted> is revealed to be the DR, most of those are going to blow away. The references to female dragons (which I took to mean False Dragons) are the only material changes to history or geography I've noticed, if you don't count stuff that's flat dropped for time. The prophecy confusion leading to <deleted> won't matter.  We may even get scenes pointing out how accurate the Cycle is, along with new Foretellings from the Finns and the Min to help drive the plot forward, and align more closely to the books. The reincarnation argument is no more provable in WoT than it is in any real world religion, and doesn't impact much in the story - plot, theme, or setting - so don't dwell on it.

 

As for the pandering, I'll take that in two parts:

1. The homosexual behaviour of the Aes Sedai and the Warders is in text canon, and believable in both the cultural context of the AS, and in the emotional resonance caused by the bond itself. Certainly much more in text than it was in the Pern novels, which had the exact same kind of relationships 25 years earlier. And it's much more believable than, say, Frank Miller's 300 NOT having homosexuality in it. I don't think of this as pandering

2. The overemphasis of women in positions of power outside the AS. I grant that is being shown more, by director's choice. But a thought occurs to me as I type this. The culling (as Adeleas I think called it) of strong men who can channel may have also been culling other male traits out of the population. Not that I'll credit RJ2 with following that logic, but in a society where men were not to be trusted for 3,000 years, it's a wonder the whole continent isn't Ebou Dar. Or Y the Last Man, or The White Plague. It emphasizes that the world is out of balance and desperately needs fixing. And if you're taking a current day sub-text out of that, you may want to consider why.

 

Having said all that, if <deleted> isn't clearly a channeling Dragon Reborn by X-mas morning, I'll be upset enough at Shai'tan Clause to change my views on a lot of this.

1a - in interviews Rafe said both Female Dragons AND False Dragons ". It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today. " very presumptuous to claim to know the mind of a man who is no longer with us in the living world
and "I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important."... "Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. "---- this leads directly into........

1b - De-gendering Souls - Mat has enough problems without having lived past lives as a woman too
---here is a  thread that has grabbed lots of RJ's Quotes over the years ... so yes - it is provable ---- unless of course your saying RJ was wrong like Rafe is
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147146/how-does-reincarnation-work-in-the-wheel-of-time-series
of specific note is this gem from RJ's blog---
 "...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable."

1c - women not being able to tell a woman channeler unless they are actively touching the source

1d - EotW being supposedly merged with Shayol Ghul
and probably a few more that I cant think of at the moment

Sadly the Pandering Im talking about has nothing to do with any of that - its a direct result of the amount of effort that's gone into trying to convince the audience at large that eg or nyn can be the DR, because sadly if they don't do that (or if  <deleted> is the one and only DR very likely has the same outcome) the show gets called Misoganistic and cancel culture comes for the show - never underestimate the power of twitter blue checks 

these aren't baseless accusations I'm tossing around - I'm using Rafes own words and what Ive seen on screen as basis for a lot of this 

Seriously I See him making at least 2 of them the DR and that's gonna be it for me 

--captain planet tune---
We're the Dragoneers, you can be one too, cause saving the wheel is the thing to do
by your powers combined - I AM CAPTAIN DRAGON
Captain Dragon - they's our hero, gonna take forsaken down to zero

ya ... that's how far down the hole my brain has gone

Edited December 14, 2021 by Wraith235
formatting, spelling, adding quotes and a little ear worm at the end

[Agitel]

I do wonder if the DR mystery will backfire more because they teased other alternatives rather than just playing it straight.

 

I'm not predicting it will. But I wonder occasionally.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Wraith235 said:

1a - in interviews Rafe said both Female Dragons AND False Dragons ". It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today. " very presumptuous to claim to know the mind of a man who is no longer with us in the living world
and "I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important."... "Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. "---- this leads directly into........

1b - De-gendering Souls - Mat has enough problems without having lived past lives as a woman too
---here is a  thread that has grabbed lots of RJ's Quotes over the years ... so yes - it is provable ---- unless of course your saying RJ was wrong like Rafe is
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147146/how-does-reincarnation-work-in-the-wheel-of-time-series
of specific note is this gem from RJ's blog---
 "...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable."

1c - women not being able to tell a woman channeler unless they are actively touching the source

1d - EotW being supposedly merged with Shayol Ghul
and probably a few more that I cant think of at the moment

Sadly the Pandering Im talking about has nothing to do with any of that - its a direct result of the amount of effort that's gone into trying to convince the audience at large that eg or nyn can be the DR, because sadly if they don't do that (or if  <deleted> is the one and only DR very likely has the same outcome) the show gets called Misoganistic and cancel culture comes for the show - never underestimate the power of twitter blue checks 

these aren't baseless accusations I'm tossing around - I'm using Rafes own words and what Ive seen on screen as basis for a lot of this 

Seriously I See him making at least 2 of them the DR and that's gonna be it for me 

--captain planet tune---
We're the Dragoneers, you can be one too, cause saving the wheel is the thing to do
by your powers combined - I AM CAPTAIN DRAGON
Captain Dragon - they's our hero, gonna take forsaken down to zero

ya ... that's how far down the hole my brain has gone

1a - ever consider Rafe is lying in the media, to back the who is the DR angle? That maybe it's a work to drum up speculation and interest? My point again - your concerns, a, b,  and your closing go away completely the minute <deleted> is the one and only Dragon Reborn. If they aren't, I'm probably on your side. But if they are, most of your concern and all of the agita about mis-gendered souls and Captain Planet, and 5 headed dragons fall to dust. And if it goes the way I think it will, Rafe has an iron clad defense for his decision against Twitter - it's what's in the book, after all.

 

1c - yeah, okay. this makes no sense. It lets Moiraine be surprised by Nyn, but that's about it. And it will need to be managed later in a couple of spots in the series, assuming they stay in. But compared to the history of prophecy change, or even Valda farming AS rings, this is nothing.

 

1d - if they eliminate real knowledge of history, it's not out of the realm that they would think the mythical eye marks the prison. It is after all, the location of a seal. I think it's a dumb change - and we'll not mention Moiraine's been there before - but it will be revealed as not the prison of the Dark One Because it isn't. 3 years from now, they'll check the KC, and Thom or Loial (maybe Min) will go it is exactly right after all. His blood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul will set people free. So he's going to Shayol Ghul.

 

Where he bleeds to death from Tuon stabbing him with Mat's dagger, transferring his soul into Alivia's empty husk of a body and marrying Elayne, who is the only one of the three who likes the new look.

[Wraith235]

49 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

1a - ever consider Rafe is lying in the media, to back the who is the DR angle? That maybe it's a work to drum up speculation and interest? My point again - your concerns, a, b,  and your closing go away completely the minute <deleted> is the one and only Dragon Reborn. If they aren't, I'm probably on your side. But if they are, most of your concern and all of the agita about mis-gendered souls and Captain Planet, and 5 headed dragons fall to dust. And if it goes the way I think it will, Rafe has an iron clad defense for his decision against Twitter - it's what's in the book, after all.

 

1d - if they eliminate real knowledge of history, it's not out of the realm that they would think the mythical eye marks the prison. It is after all, the location of a seal. I think it's a dumb change - and we'll not mention Moiraine's been there before - but it will be revealed as not the prison of the Dark One Because it isn't. 3 years from now, they'll check the KC, and Thom or Loial (maybe Min) will go it is exactly right after all. His blood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul will set people free. So he's going to Shayol Ghul.

 

Where he bleeds to death from Tuon stabbing him with Mat's dagger, transferring his soul into Alivia's empty husk of a body and marrying Elayne, who is the only one of the three who likes the new look.

1a/b - Most of a,b ya ... though the mat thing still gets messy and as for Rafe lying ... I highly doubt it .. particularly since they have fully doubled down on that crap in the show
and no defense is Ironclad against the twitterverse - to think that means you underestimate its power in the world of media
also Im not saying they are going to do the multi dragon thing .... I just see it happening with everything thus far - Light I hope I'm wrong ... but I just don't trust them not to pull some shite like that... too much effort has been put into it already

1d -sorry majorly sidetracked on this one - edit comming .... ya ok ... I suppose I see that ... agreed its dumb but ok 

I'll have to read the end of AMOL again because I dont remember that part
 


 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Wraith235
sidetracked - SQUIRELL !!!!

[Jaysen Gore]

24 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

<snip>  though the mat thing still gets messy and as for Rafe lying ... I highly doubt it .. particularly since they have fully doubled down on that crap in the show

1d - Im not saying they have don't an out on this one - it just makes them look relatively ignorant since as far as I can see there are a 4 Prophecies referencing things about the DR each one has its own issues 
Prophecy of Rhuidean - no way the AS would have this
Jendai Prophecies - they COULD have the Atha'an Miere prophecies at the tower 
Essanik Cycle - again AS would not have these
Prophecies of the Shadow - its possible I suppose that the tower MIGHT have these 
 
so what other prophecies exist ? or are even partially reputable.... I mean I guess if you count some of the drivel they mentioned in this last episode sure

I don't blame Rafe for Harris.  it's an assumption, but balance of probabilities say it's not his fault. Occam's razor says it's Covid related, somehow. And I can think of at least 4 reasonable ways they can get Mat to Falme by episode 8, so it's easily fixable, since his role on the road in tGH was minimal.

 

Prophecies - confirmed in the books that the AS don't have the Prophecies of the Shadow, by the keeper of the chronicles, iirc.  and if the AS don't believe the KC, it's easy to think they both don't believe in the Coramoor, and /or don't equate him to the Dragon. And as I noted before, losing these is important, since they probably can't show all of them, so this gives the production flexibility.

 

In terms of the plot, I include foretellings, dreaming, and reading the pattern. So Gitara's, Elaida's, everything from Min, the red portal trips for Mat, Rand, and Moiraine. All valid "prophecy" for foreshadowing purposes. that's why the next 2 episodes are the first knot in the pattern, and the episodes in Tear are the next.  Depending on what's in those 4 episodes, we'll lock Mat in (Horn, Tuon, Battle, maybe Ghenji) get a lot of Rand's (Aiel, Twice and Twice, the KC study leads to the rest) , determine if the seals exist to be found (Nyn and Moiraine find 6 of 7). Even Moiraine, if they include her visit. Egwene's plotline is already obvious, and foreshadowed in the deleted / pending dream scene. Which only leaves Perrin's character arc with any flexibility. But if we get the Horn, Faile's arc can be untouched and Perrin's mostly done. If you lock in that much of the plot, the character growth comes with. And we fundamentally have the Wheel of Time intact. But start dropping pieces, and anything goes. so we shall see.

 

Part of what Rafe HAS done, which i am kind of okay with, is that the Aes Sedai were a lot less successful fighting the decline than they were in the books. So there's less knowledge, less faith in what they do have, and more unknowns. Not only is there more infighting, there is more illusion to the masses. They are not as in control as they appear to be, nor close to what they were in the books.

[Joe B]

I'm not a big fan of the lightning that appears to be lighting up the ways. Maybe I am wrong to think that the ways are pitch black.

Do you think the lightning is artistic license, or maybe a a practicality for filming in a dark setting?

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'm not a big fan of the lightning that appears to be lighting up the ways. Maybe I am wrong to think that the ways are pitch black.

Do you think the lightning is artistic license, or maybe a a practicality for filming in a dark setting?

Even less a fan of the jagged black rock pillars they appear to have added.