tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Yojimbo]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Oh no. Whatever will we do. People are mad on the Twitter.

It is a bit of a risk though.  If enough people are invested in the idea that Egs is the DR they may lose some viewers.  And in order to justify Rand they will probably have to have a montage showing all the things people may have missed to indicate that he is the DR.   That will likely annoy some people too.   And then there is the possibility (however remote) of a DR that is more than one person, which will annoy a lot of people who were invested in one character over another, and will absolutely enrage most of the book fans. 

[flinn]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It is a bit of a risk though.  If enough people are invested in the idea that Egs is the DR they may lose some viewers.  And in order to justify Rand they will probably have to have a montage showing all the things people may have missed to indicate that he is the DR.   That will likely annoy some people too.   And then there is the possibility (however remote) of a DR that is more than one person, which will annoy a lot of people who were invested in one character over another, and will absolutely enrage most of the book fans. 

 If the DR is anything other than JUST Rand, I will stop watching the show.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It is a bit of a risk

It's really not though.

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It is a bit of a risk though.  If enough people are invested in the idea that Egs is the DR they may lose some viewers.  And in order to justify Rand they will probably have to have a montage showing all the things people may have missed to indicate that he is the DR.   That will likely annoy some people too.   And then there is the possibility (however remote) of a DR that is more than one person, which will annoy a lot of people who were invested in one character over another, and will absolutely enrage most of the book fans. 

But by that logic there are people who want it to be Perrin or Nynaeve or Mat and when it's not them it'll make them leave the show.

It's probably fair to say there are some people who will abandon a show if it's not exactly what they wanted.  But most will stay if they're invested in the character.  It's not like the other 4 stop being important if they're not the DR.

[DreadParrot]

I think that given the specter of characters being consolidated and the cuts being made it is highly likely we are going to get a Frankenstein’s monster of events mashed together by the finale. 
 

Here is the shot I’m calling:  

 

Spoiler

Callandor will be found at the “eye” and instead of aginor/balth we will get Ishy. Ishy and rand will have their fight in the sky from GH while rand holds callandor and then we will get the Belal type fight collapsed into the fight with Ishy. So that the events of three books will take place in one episode, ending the season with rand already in possession of the sword which is not a sword.

Spoiler

Spoils events through Dragon Reborn book 

 

 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

My guy was also very happy with this episode and we are now fans of Liandrin for being a red with a boyfriend. Secret boyfriend!!

 

I have a theory that the guy she's meeting isn't a boyfriend, but actually 

Spoiler

A Forsaken!

 

[AusLeviathan]

Okay I'll admit this episode completely changed my perspective of this show.

 

There are now so many plot holes, so many future issues as a result of changes and so many rushed or poorly done things that I couldn't help myself laughing throughout the entire episode.

 

I believe if I think of this show as a parody of the Wheel of Time I'm going to have a lot of fun watching it from now on.

[Therese Sedai]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Okay I'll admit this episode completely changed my perspective of this show.

 

There are now so many plot holes, so many future issues as a result of changes and so many rushed or poorly done things that I couldn't help myself laughing throughout the entire episode.

 

I believe if I think of this show as a parody of the Wheel of Time I'm going to have a lot of fun watching it from now on.

Can you clarify what the plot holes are please? 

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I have a theory that the guy she's meeting isn't a boyfriend, but actually 

  Hide contents

A Forsaken!

 

 

I'm thinking brother/father/uncle/childhood best friend. Though it sounded like she had a bad relationship with her father.

[ManetherenTaveren]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

So it's very possible for there to be translations that pull that into question.

Oh no! Who will assume the role of Missandei to explain the lost-in-translation prophesy of Azor Ahai/Dragon Reborn in this adaptation of GoT/WoT???  Some could argue that at the end of GoT they split the difference: a woman (Arya) stabby-stabbed the Night King and a man (Jon) stabby-stabbed the Dragon Queen to save Westeros.  Shall they split the difference in WoT as well?

 

Another turning of the wheel...

Edited December 10, 2021 by ManetherenTaveren
Removed the faux agitation

[Therese Sedai]

4 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I have a theory that the guy she's meeting isn't a boyfriend, but actually 

  Reveal hidden contents

A Forsaken!

 

Or… hear me out.

Spoiler

It’s her forsaken boyfriend

.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Some people are jumping to conclusions, yes.  I just posited several other options that also work perfectly well.  I didn't insist any individual reason was correct.  

I didn't say you did.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

... entitled much? ?

No seriously, why does he owe you an explanation? Why?

Agreed.  He made the show he sold to Amazon.  He may owe them an explanation if he didn't deliver what he promised - but I think he did.

 

He doesn't owe us squat.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

23 minutes ago, DreadParrot said:

Here is the shot I’m calling:  

 

I think the only part you're right about is that Rand will end up fighting Ishy.  **Warning major spoilers***

 

Here's what I predict based on this episode: 

 

We're going to get Blood Snow & an episode finally on Rand for the finale. The little Easter egg (I remember this place will then make sense). 

 

Egwene is going to get in the way and help defeat Ishy/save Rand (and miraculously - to Moiraine's surprise anyway - save the rest of the EF5 from dying - because she's the Real hero of the story). Nyn won't be able to do anything because we'll find that she's got a block. 

 

Perrin will continue to be - a nobody we know little about - except he's doing something with wolves - but he'll suddenly be "over" killing his wife (ready for Faile S2??) somehow??

 

We're going to get Rand kicking butt at Tarwin's Gap (I think we'll get to Fal Dara & learn a little about the Borderlanders next episode). 

 

We're going to get Matt and Fain fighting over the dagger. 

 

They're going to end with Liandrin taking over the W.T and stilling Siuan & then meeting with a Forsaken and saying, "The Dragon is with Moiraine, we'll turn him or kill him." 

 

We'll see... Just seems like that's what they've set up. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Wolfbrother31
To make it relevant to this thread ;)

[ArrylT]

11 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Agreed.  He made the show he sold to Amazon.  He may owe them an explanation if he didn't deliver what he promised - but I think he did.

 

He doesn't owe us squat.

 

But it would be appreciated nonetheless.  ?

[TheSmurf]

Watched it with the family... Just going to say I'm not enjoying it, feel pretty 'whatever'... 

 

Was hoping for a better show, and sticking closer to the books. 

 

I'll finish this but more because I'm a completionist, and not because I'm particularity enjoying it. 

[Yojimbo]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

But by that logic there are people who want it to be Perrin or Nynaeve or Mat and when it's not them it'll make them leave the show.

It's probably fair to say there are some people who will abandon a show if it's not exactly what they wanted.  But most will stay if they're invested in the character.  It's not like the other 4 stop being important if they're not the DR.

Well, since Mat has already been voted off the island because he didn't go to the Eye.....

 

And my point (maybe not well expressed) is that it is a risk because some people are going to feel they were being manipulated into thinking it was another character and then viola! it turns out to be Rand and they have to prove it by showing a bunch of flashbacks.   

[Spiritweaver1]

So many great comments.  I watched this morning and here are a few of my thoughts.

 

My previous prediction, which was given to me by a girl named Min are starting to come true.  The effort to completely rewrite the story is starting to unravel the pattern of Randland.   Things are omitted which are actually fairly important if you want a consistent believable universe later on.  I won't repeat the ones pointed out in previous posts.   Let's just say that Moraine said previously that the Wheel does not want in a fit of new dialog.  In this episode she has a book quote that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.  Well I am no English linguistic expert but willing and wanting are too close together for consistency.  Both imply volition.  It either does or it doesn't.  

 

As stated by others, it baffles me why they can't stick with the story line when logically  it would make for a better story and less chance of the pattern unraveling later.   TEOTW at Shayol Ghul really???,  No Avendesora leaf?  Why not add content that say that the dagger will destroy the world and can only be destroyed in the forges of Tha'kander where it was forged by the DO just prior to the sealing of the bore. It was later carried to Aridhol by a dark friend named Mordeth an we know what happened after.  That would have given them a reason to go the blight.  Matt could have volunteered to carry the dagger even though he doesn't know the way because the healing shielded him to some degree from it's effects.  A tried and true plot line on several fronts.                   

 

I support all the comments made about spending two much time on secondary and even invented characters instead of fleshing out the complicated relationships between the EF5.    This, to me, is one of the more fascinating things about the show so far.  How and why the choices about who to feature and what changes to make to the basic personality of that character.  

 

On the positive side:

Siuan was excellently portrayed.  However, it was never really clear to me that she and Moraine were pillow friends as novices although there were rumors in a New Spring.  They certainly weren't in the main books.  

 

Given that they ended up in TV instead of Caemlyn the plot device to get them out of town was good although I still believe it will cause plot consistency problems later.  I am assuming the writing team will hope we forget.  Just like when Loial and Gaul go to close up the Manetheren Gate.  If it is one power activated then there is gonna be trouble.

 

I thought Moraine healing Matt from the dagger was excellent.  It matched my head canon.  Not sure if the healing is permanent or not.  Moraine and Lan continue strong.  

 

I thought the show did a good job of portraying aes sedai ceremony.  Not sure what we are going to do in the Aiel sweat tents or Aes Sedai ceremonies where we have to make sure everybody is a woman. Mostly keeping the show to the American standard of trollocs ripping and eating another guts are okay but breasts are not I am sure.   

 

In summary, I thought E6 was good.  It is not the story but it is a story.  I hope they regroup the plot at the EOTW and we get a DR so we can quit with the replotting to hide who it is. On this topic I thought it would have been a nice touch for the Amyrlin Seat to give Moraine a golden dragons egg and tell her that the most secret texts in the TV library (known only to the Amyrlin Seat) say that for the dragon to be revealed the Green Man has to quicken the dragons egg which has been in the possession of the tower since the breaking of the world.    I certainly plan to keep watching and am looking forward to a binge of the season when it is complete.

 

 

 

[DreadParrot]

Plot holes being labeled is tricky due to sloppy or hasty writing. It’s hard to label something a hole without knowing where they are going. Maybe problematic details is more accurate…

 

*Book Tam is too weak to walk, and that is the only reason he can’t go with the kids with moiraine and lan. Show Tam gives a head nod and off you go. No reveal of Rand’s adoption etc. which only aids in The Who is The Dragon Carousel. Rand self doubt and questioning is important. 

 

*The show is making it sound like women can’t sense another women’s potential or strength. This is fairly important throughout. 
 

*no explanation presented for why the shadar logoth dagger was cursed/poisoned or why it’s dangerous, it just is. Understanding the competing evil is critical for one of the single largest events in universe and we got no exposition or detail. 
 

*The plan to chuck teenagers at the dark ones prison ignores all prophecy and markers for the dragon and basically feels like the worst plan imagineable. at least take a hundred or so Aes Sedai with you. Especially if this the Hail Mary get him while he is weak to prevent destruction of the world gambit moiraine just sold it as. 
 

*They introduce a terangreal (presumably) that allows Travelling, or Moiraine has access to Travelling already. I refuse to believe there is a terangreal that allows for Travelling only to a small fishing hut. So either it’s something “programmed” or they have introduced Travelling. Either one is problematic for a number of reasons.  Immediately what comes to mind is why risk the Ways if you can Travel
 

*Valda seemed awfully confident that Egwene could channel, and given women can’t determine this, how did he. 
 

*Perrin carries neither axe or hammer. Those are integral to his development. 
 

*The Eye as the prison is such a drastic departure that I can’t fathom why they are including this. Ishy luring them ok…but either he is luring them to the actual prison…in which case he is inviting kryptonite to Superman’s holding cell, or he is able to access the Eye which is supposed to be immensely safe guarded. Or the Eye is the prison and Ishy ain’t involved, which means we would get some sort of actual confrontation…

[jh557]

9 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I have a theory that the guy she's meeting isn't a boyfriend, but actually 

  Reveal hidden contents

A Forsaken!

 

 

4 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Or… hear me out.

  Hide contents

It’s her forsaken boyfriend

.

Has anybody else had the thought that she might be bonded to this man against custom.

Spoiler

I know its against everything that Liandrin was in the books, but she and Nynaeve did have the odd conversation about warders in E5 where she had  a pause of answering something like "No....never" when asked about Reds and warders. I mean unless the Reds are even more strict in the show than the books (based on Pevara's POVs from the books there are Reds that had relations/relationships with men even if they did not openly advertise as such) so her simply having them find out about her having a boyfriend should not necessarily terrify her. He could be a darkfriend or something more sinister, but I thought maybe it could be a man that helped her get to the tower and that she actually cared about and ended up bonding against custom.       

 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Wraith235 said:

no this has HUGE Ramifications ... if you recall the Waygates were how the Trollocs got to the two rivers ... and if they require a channeler to open then the same SHOULD be true for exiting the ways 
and we know Fades cannot channel - and the forsaken cant be in all places at once so we must have Hundreds of darkfriend channelers just on standby everywhere to open these gates .... then compount that with Machin Shin - or are they going to cut that as well (certainly doesnt seem that way with saying that the horses wont survive the ways)

Or simply one of the Black Ajah to travel with them to open the gate at the end? Aside from Manetheren, where 1 BA could open the gate at a set time, the only time this is used is Camelyn. So you don't need standbys at every way gate. Perrin's trip will be solved by having Verin go with, instead of meeting there.

 

Or hell, you could make PF a channeler and have him do it.

 

I do agree it's an unnecessary change that may have an impact later on, but I would not qualify that as HUGE ramifications.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 minute ago, jh557 said:

 

Has anybody else had the thought that she might be bonded to this man against custom.

  Reveal hidden contents

I know its against everything that Liandrin was in the books, but she and Nynaeve did have the odd conversation about warders in E5 where she had  a pause of answering something like "No....never" when asked about Reds and warders. I mean unless the Reds are even more strict in the show than the books (based on Pevara's POVs from the books there are Reds that had relations/relationships with men even if they did not openly advertise as such) so her simply having them find out about her having a boyfriend should not necessarily terrify her. He could be a darkfriend or something more sinister, but I thought maybe it could be a man that helped her get to the tower and that she actually cared about and ended up bonding against custom.       

 

 

Actually I've changed my mind. I'm now fairly confident that she is meeting:

Spoiler

Padan Fain

 

which is why she knows so much about what's going on with Moiraine and the EF5.

 

And in the next episode we will find out that they are both Darkfriends! 

[AusLeviathan]

40 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Can you clarify what the plot holes are please?

Moiraine and Siuan have secret Ter'angreal allowing them to meet with each other, yet Moiraine has left this Ter'angreal behind whilst on her journey rather than taking it and keeping in communication with Siuan despite the Ter'angreal being small enough to travel with.

 

Moiraine said she didn't know Nynaeve could channel, which means she can't sense if a person can channel, so how did she know Egwene could channel.

 

The One Power is required to open the Ways but Ogier can and have created the Waygates, why would they create something that they're unable to use for themselves, especially since the show makes it clear than an Ogier was needed for safely traversing the Ways.

 

A fourth Oath can now be forced upon an Aes Sedai without objection from other Aes Sedai, this creates a lot of plot issues for later in the series.

 

The tower guard is filled with female guards and yet we're not seeing any female warders (because of course they want to save the first female warder character for later but since the show has made it acceptable for women to be soldiers/guards in Tar Valon this doesn't really make sense).

 

Moiraine has dedicated 20 years of her life to finding the Dragon because of Gitara's prophecy, Moiraine is also willing to entertain the idea that a random Gleeman's story of a many headed Dragon might be more accurate than the prophecy she heard from a woman who gave her life to give it which has shaped Moiraine's choices in her life.

 

Moiraine's oath in the hall to Siuan is worded in such a way that  it would be impossible for the Hall not to realize that something is going on there and if the justification is the Hall didn't hear it then why are the Hall just trusting that this oath is what they think it is.

 

Moiraine said she'd rather kill the EF5 then let the shadow have them, she also stood by as Mat refused to follow her and did nothing, allowing him to get away from her and risking the shadow would get him.

 

Moiraine made it clear she doesn't know who the DR is and that the DR is required at the EOTW for her plan, yet she allows Mat who she thinks could be the DR to get away with not following her into the Ways.

 

An Aes Sedai can be exiled solely by the Amyrlin Seat's decision, this creates massive plot issues for later in the series.

 

That's what I can think of off the top of my head regarding just this episode. The full list is larger of course and gets even bigger when considering all episodes.

Edited December 10, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[dorotea]

1 hour ago, phoenixtrinity said:

With all due respect, I study culture and world history and am very aware of how diveristy looks depending on context. This is not just a "San Fransisco" view. This is akin to saying ancient China was comprised of just "Chinese" instead of hundreds of ethnic groups who very much consider themselves both physically and culturally diverse.

See, the 'hundreds of ethnic groups' generally remain 'hundreds of ethnic groups' because they live separately, in their little ethnic enclaves, aka villages, towns, districts, with hundreds of ethnic group dialects, costumes, hairstyles, petticoat fashions etc. They do not mix, because when they do the 'hundreds of ethnic groups' become one ethnic group - Chinese. Jordan was great in describing the Randland the way it was, exactly because he knew that. If you studies China you should know that.

 

And if you ever been to Italy you will notice that 2000 years is plenty of time to blend together every ethnic minority that ever lived in the ancient Roman Empire, plus all the waves of Visigoths, Germanic tribes, Moores , etc that came and settled there over the last 20 centuries into pretty uniform and look alike population that became getting diverse in American sense only in the last 50 ears or so.

[ArrylT]

I need to pick up my pace of reading EOTW because I believe, based on a certain slight teaser 

 

Spoiler

involving Rand & Egwene

 

that even if I was not already confident that Rand would be the Dragon Reborn, that it is setting it up to occur at the EOTW.

 

Remember that at the encounter at the Eye when the Forsaken arrive (which now wont be too confusing to non book viewers since they've been introduced in Ep5) Egwene, being Egwene, decides to try and fight one of them off with her untrained skills, and Rand basically gets her to run and draws the Forsaken to him.

 

That teaser suggests to me that Rand still cares enough for Egwene to justify this decision on the show (since we dont have internal monologues).  

 

Of course all of this is moot if they play things out completely differently.   Also I am using the generic Forsaken because not sure if another Forsaken will replace Aginor.  Maybe that teaser is going to be used to set up a different scene, but to me that teaser of the scene is meant to build to that climax at EOTW.

 

----

 

On a different thought,  even though I had heard the rumours, and sort of expected it,  I was still really invested in wanting Mat.   That is when I knew that I was fully committed (instead of assuming I was) - because I was wanting Mat to make it into the Waygate.   Not Barney Harris as Mat - just Mat as Mat.  

 

In any case I very curious to see how this next episode plays out - like I think a few have mentioned, I am expecting a couple of flashbacks, and some expository info during the travel through the ways - with hopefully them being chased out by the Black Wind.