tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[expat]

Some thoughts on the various topics raised.

 

Quote

But where exactly has it happened in the books?

A good example is the arrow fired at Rand in Fal Dara in book 2.  Didn't it graze Siuan Sanche (trying to remember the scene, so might be wrong)?  It shows that an unexpected attack can incapacitate an Aes Sedai.

 

2.  The robot analogy for Lan seems spot on.  A robot always has same level of ability.  A human doesn't.  Many commenters seem to think that showing Lan as human, with different abilities depending on the circumstances breaks his character.  I see three levels in Lan - scout/fighter Lan, normal Lan, and distressed Lan. The scene with Nyn sneaking up on him wouldn't make sense with scout Lan.  In the book, normal Lan (general situation wariness, but no active preventive measures) allows her to sneak up to within a few feet.  In the show, Lan is in distress because he is likely in great pain through the bond, and he is concentrating everything he has trying to figure out how to keep Moiraine alive.  It doesn't seem out of character to me that in that situation, he is not paying any attention to self-protection and the (book) stealthy Nyn could get that close.  To the people who keep complaining about this scene, imagine you are sick and dealing with a very sick child and think if you would be able to perform other activities, even ones that you are very good at, at peak efficiency. 

 

I think that a very stoic, physically unbeatable, character would be very boring over 8 seasons.  Need a swordsman, send Lan because he can't lose.  Even Nyn, who fills the magical fixer role in the book had her block to keep her from being too strong and hence boring.  They had to give Superman weaknesses in order to keep him from being boring (and I find all his movies boring anyway because he is too strong and is usually played as stoic). 

[Hudson]

59 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

It was a suicide-murder pact and it was between Rand and Matt on the balcony overlooking Logain.

He asked if the suicide pact was also in the books. In the books I think it’s Rand and Perrin….

[Harad the White]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Wasn't a suicide pact and I think was actually Rand and Perrin.

How's this? "Wasn't a suicide pact and I think it was Lan and a Trolloc."

[Agitel]

I actually am not disappointed by the wolf attack in this episode. I'm more disappointed by Perrin... um... ascension (?) to wolfhood. It felt very awkward to me, him just standing up and growling at Valda, even with golden eyes.

[Vambram]

9 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I actually am not disappointed by the wolf attack in this episode. I'm more disappointed by Perrin... um... ascension (?) to wolfhood. It felt very awkward to me, him just standing up and growling at Valda, even with golden eyes.

I wish that it would have been Perrin who stabbed Valda instead of Egwene. 

[Joe B]

3 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

But where exactly has it happened in the books?

The threat is definitely there in the books...a WC knife or bolt in the back. I always felt that it was implied that it could and has happened.

Of course, that is a far cry from chopping off the hands and burning at the stake.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, pyrusmole said:

Ok but to be fair, the "link arms in the face of danger" is a show!Tinker thing. The book!Tinker solution to conflict is to explicitly bargain and failing that, run away.

Book mat when meeting tinkers while out riding with certain ladies (much later) expects them to act in exactly the way they do in E5.  He would be drawing on multiple encounters by that time so this is consistent behaviour for the way of the leaf (as pointed out by other commentators - consistent over 3,000 years).

[JaimAybara]

19 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

I wish that it would have been Perrin who stabbed Valda instead of Egwene. 

I so badly wanted him to find a weapon of opportunity and wreck the same amount as in the books upon his first encounter. I do however like the werewolf tease. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by JaimAybara
Spelling

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

3 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

There are 100% ways it could happen in the books. Aes Sedai are only human, and caught by suprise they could be definitely be killed.

But where exactly has it happened in the books?

How about where Pedron Niall is looking at the painting in his rooms of the only Amyrlyn Seat ever to be correctly hanged as required by Whitecloak law?  Admittedly he muses that she was hanged after death due to the need to kill her from ambush - but the fact remains (and if they got one Amyrlyn in their history they will have got a lot of sisters (and even more failed accepted who also have rings).

[pyrusmole]

7 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Book mat when meeting tinkers while out riding with certain ladies (much later) expects them to act in exactly the way they do in E5.  He would be drawing on multiple encounters by that time so this is consistent behaviour for the way of the leaf (as pointed out by other commentators - consistent over 3,000 years).

Yeah sorry, I'll admit I was half joking. In particular the assumption here was based off Raen's guide to conflict resolution when we first meet the Tinkers.

Quote

If a man hit me, I would ask him why he wanted to do such a thing. If he still wanted to hit me, I would run away, as I would if he wanted to rob or kill me. Much better that I let him take what he wanted, even my life, than that I should do violence. And I would hope that he was not harmed to greatly." - Raen, EOTW ch 25

The reason I'm only half joking is I think in the early books the Tinkers really did come off as much more cowardly but had a minor course correction later in the series for a more "brave" kind of pacifism.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

8 minutes ago, pyrusmole said:

Quote

If a man hit me, I would ask him why he wanted to do such a thing. If he still wanted to hit me, I would run away, as I would if he wanted to rob or kill me. Much better that I let him take what he wanted, even my life, than that I should do violence. And I would hope that he was not harmed to greatly." - Raen, EOTW ch 25

The reason I'm only half joking is I think in the early books the Tinkers really did come off as much more cowardly but had a minor course correction later in the series for a more "brave" kind of pacifism.

You will note that the quote is about how a tinker reacts to violence to himself - when it is violence to others they consistently act as a barrier to prevent or delay that violence - accepting lesser violence to themselves as a protection to both those giving violence and those that would have received it (and probably fought back - resulting in an escalating spiral of violence).

[pyrusmole]

2 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

You will note that the quote is about how a tinker reacts to violence to himself - when it is violence to others they consistently act as a barrier to prevent or delay that violence - accepting lesser violence to themselves as a protection to both those giving violence and those that would have received it (and probably fought back - resulting in an escalating spiral of violence).

I'll take your word for it. I'm doing my re-read now so I'm only fresh up to this part on Way of the Leaf. From at least the encounter in the book that the show is portraying, I personally did not leave with the impression that the Tuothuan were particularly protective. Hospitable, kind and good dancers. Definitely, but willing to protect an outsider if push came to shove? Not the impression I had. I'm sure I'm wrong though, since I've got 13 books left on the re-read and I haven't read the series in over 5 years at this point

[AusLeviathan]

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

But, as I think I have said before, the main point is if you start off wanting only the story of the books with minimal changes absolutely necessary for TV showing (which I would have loved but I accept they haven't done), and you come to this with an attitude of "not want", then you watch it not wanting it to make sense.

I just want Rand the main character from the books but I can't have him because he's a man and men are bad so he must be put out of focus.

 

I just want Egwene from the books but I can't have her because she's a woman and must immediately shown to be unbreakable and strong from the beginning without her journey and she must also not be allowed to have the personality traits that made her interesting.

 

I just want Lan from the books but I can't have him because he's a strong man and strong men are toxic and must instead be portrayed as incompetent emotional cry babies.

 

I just want the Warders from the books but I can't have them because men who are badass warriors are wrong and need to instead be sensitive, useless and apparently there more to provide sex for Aes Sedai than to actually do their jobs.

 

I just want the story from the books but the story prophesied a male chosen one in a world where women held the power and that doesn't fit the message of men are bad and women are good so we must change the story because even in a universe where men who gain that universe's magic power are destined to go insane we still can't actually give men anything and we must make it clear that the chosen one can be a woman (regardless of how little narrative sense that makes).

 

I just want something, anything that actually fits the book and hasn't been corrupted to the point of being unrecognizable and losing everything that made it good in the books.

Edited December 5, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Sovyetsky]

1 hour ago, AusLeviathan said:

I just want Rand the main character from the books but I can't have him because he's a man and men are bad so he must be put out of focus.

 

I just want Egwene from the books but I can't have her because she's a woman and must immediately shown to be unbreakable and strong from the beginning without her journey and she must also not be allowed to have the personality traits that made her interesting.

 

I just want Lan from the books but I can't have him because he's a strong man and strong men are toxic and must instead be portrayed as incompetent emotional cry babies.

 

I just want the Warders from the books but I can't have them because men who are badass warriors are wrong and need to instead be sensitive, useless and apparently there more to provide sex for Aes Sedai than to actually do their jobs.

 

I just want the story from the books but the story prophesied a male chosen one in a world where women held the power and that doesn't fit the message of men are bad and women are good so we must change the story because even in a universe where men who gain that universe's magic power are destined to go insane we still can't actually give men anything and we must make it clear that the chosen one can be a woman (regardless of how little narrative sense that makes).

 

I just want something, anything that actually fits the book and hasn't been corrupted to the point of being unrecognizable and losing everything that made it good in the books.

 

Settle down there.

[TinyMammal]

1 hour ago, AusLeviathan said:

I just want Rand the main character from the books but I can't have him because he's a man and men are bad so he must be put out of focus.

 

I just want Egwene from the books but I can't have her because she's a woman and must immediately shown to be unbreakable and strong from the beginning without her journey and she must also not be allowed to have the personality traits that made her interesting.

 

I just want Lan from the books but I can't have him because he's a strong man and strong men are toxic and must instead be portrayed as incompetent emotional cry babies.

 

I just want the Warders from the books but I can't have them because men who are badass warriors are wrong and need to instead be sensitive, useless and apparently there more to provide sex for Aes Sedai than to actually do their jobs.

 

I just want the story from the books but the story prophesied a male chosen one in a world where women held the power and that doesn't fit the message of men are bad and women are good so we must change the story because even in a universe where men who gain that universe's magic power are destined to go insane we still can't actually give men anything and we must make it clear that the chosen one can be a woman (regardless of how little narrative sense that makes).

 

I just want something, anything that actually fits the book and hasn't been corrupted to the point of being unrecognizable and losing everything that made it good in the books.

 

Get a grip. That's not what the show is saying at all.

[ManetherenTaveren]

1 hour ago, pyrusmole said:

I'm doing my re-read now so I'm only fresh up to this part on Way of the Leaf. From at least the encounter in the book that the show is portraying, I personally did not leave with the impression that the Tuothuan were particularly protective.

On your re-read journey, take special note to focus on "The Dedicated" chapter of The Shadow Rising (book 4). The revealing tale of the Tuatha'an dilemma and paradox is one of the most amazing aspects of this satisfying and glorious series. ? I hope this gets adapted into the show at some point, as a significant moment in the DR's (or Car'a'carn's) arc. 

 

The Way of the Leaf, indeed!

Edited December 5, 2021 by ManetherenTaveren

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

On your re-read journey, take special note to focus on "The Dedicated" chapter of The Shadow Rising (book 4). The revealing tale of the Tuatha'an dilemma and paradox is one of the most amazing aspects of this satisfying and glorious series. ? I hope this gets adapted into the show at some point, as a significant moment in the DR's (or Car'a'carn's) arc. 

 

The Way of the Leaf, indeed!

Based on Ila's speech it will definitely be in the show

[Indil]

7 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

"Incompetent" is a strong word. In the book Nynaeve and Elayne get shielded...and the instant Elayne cries out "They have me shielded!" He jumps atop the enemy hitting an air wall...which broke the concentration needed for a shield. (And acting very much as a warder in this regard)

 

I'd say Lan is aware of his own strengths and his own weaknesses. 

You're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not a native english user so please forgive my misuse of the word.

[AusLeviathan]

32 minutes ago, TinyMammal said:

Get a grip. That's not what the show is saying at all.

Can you name the moments in the show where the main male characters show even just an equal amount of competence, personality, bravery, strength and skill compared to the books?

 

Thom probably came the closest in that regard but even then he lost out of teaching the boys his skills and a lot of his personality in doing so.

 

Tam - Lost to a single Trolloc.

Lan - Bad horseman, generally incompetent, bizarrely emotional for an old soldier.

Mat - Steals from people he knows, doesn't charge into battle yelling in the old tongue.

Perrin - So incompetent he killed his wife, didn't even touch any of the Whitecloaks (Egwene did that for him).

Rand - Has virtually no character, runs screaming from small women, is a non entity in this story.

 

I've never seen this level of character assassination in an adaptation before. Almost every cool or interesting quality of a male character has been removed with several of those qualities instead moved to female characters (remember when Rand loved Jain Farstrider's stories, well now that's Egwene's thing).

 

I'm not sure what I'm meant to like about any of these characters. The men either have very little personality or are useless and the women have almost no personality and are impossible to get invested in because they're so strong and perfect from the beginning that there are no stakes.

 

On the bright side I did watch the new Dune movie today and it's amazing to see what a competent Director and Writer can do when they have respect for the source material. Can you believe they actually focused on the main character Paul and made him strong and confident, can you believe that the men aren't portrayed as emotional cry babies who can't handle a friend dying despite being soldiers, it's almost like if you follow the template of a good writer and don't throw out everything good about their work then you can actually make a good adaptation.

 

It's just too bad we've got a talent less hack and his group of shilling stooges in charge of this adaptation.

Edited December 5, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Harad the White]

23 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

It's just too bad we've got a talent less hack and his group of shilling stooges in charge of this adaptation.

The founding member of the N&Ns speaks. BTW, a fair warning is that any quotes in his posts are suspect. After being asked to give sources for his quotes, he delays, makes excuses, and the sources are never revealed. Nail in the coffin: Rafe told me, "Yes. It's true."

[AusLeviathan]

15 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The founding member of the N&Ns speaks. BTW, a fair warning is that any quotes in his posts are suspect. After being asked to give sources for his quotes, he delays, makes excuses, and the sources are never revealed. Nail in the coffin: Rafe told me, "Yes. It's true."

The link to the interview you wanted was posted but you ignored that post, I'm not going to post links just so you can ignore them again and claim that I'm lying to you because you refuse to accept that Rafe has debunked your theory.

 

If you want to see it either go through the thread and find the interview link or google the interview or search Reddit for the interview. It was reported on a few sites and there were a few Reddit posts that talked about the interview so you won't have any issue finding it.

Edited December 5, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Mate, the link to the interview was posted but you ignored that post, I'm not going to post links just so you can ignore them again and claim that I'm lying to you because you refuse to accept that Rafe has debunked your theory.

Brah, find your link, copy, and paste. Easy peasy. I can understand that mebe you can't take the time out of your N&N to find the link that you posted. Post it in your next post, and let everyone see your source. Otherwise don't blame me for what people will cornclude.

[KakitaOCU]

49 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Tam - Lost to a single Trolloc.

Lan - Bad horseman, generally incompetent, bizarrely emotional for an old soldier.

Mat - Steals from people he knows, doesn't charge into battle yelling in the old tongue.

Perrin - So incompetent he killed his wife, didn't even touch any of the Whitecloaks (Egwene did that for him).

Rand - Has virtually no character, runs screaming from small women, is a non entity in this story.

You're looking for excuses to be offended.

Tam: Dealt multiple wounds to a trolloc after not having held that sword for at least 18 years (Rand never knew it existed).  I hate to break this to you, my muscle memory for martial arts is garbage after 10 years of not doing it.  It's realistic, not emasculating.

Lan: Had one bad horse experience others tease him about, Super confident if you actually pay attention, Emotes during a specific ritual where he's supposed to.

Mat: I've said this before.  We don't see him before the Shadar Logoth incident.  Then in book 3 he's suddenly a master gambler and sleight of hand/juggler artist.  He got those skills somewhere and it wasn't in one month with Thom.

Perrin: Not incompetent, raged and reacted with no combat training, didn't murder people, oh no...

Rand: Showed coolness under fire firing arrows at the trolloc that attacked him and Tam, stands up to Moraine, protects Mat, de-escalates the situation with the Grinwells...   Oh, and the "runs from a woman"  Can you tell me at what point in the books Rand is willing to harm a woman?  Cause I remember it happening.... once... And it nearly broke him.

Nothing you're seeing is actually there, you seem to be expecting them to be macho emotionless destroyers marching through armies and they weren't that in book one.  They were never the macho emotionless thing at all.

Edited December 5, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[AusLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Brah, find your link, copy, and paste. Easy peasy. I can understand that mebe you can't take the time out of your N&N to find the link that you posted. Post it in your next post, and let everyone see your source. Otherwise don't blame me for what people will cornclude.

Why would I do that? I posted the link and you ignored it and called me a liar, what incentive do I have to post it again. If you want to listen the interview all you need to do is go into my post history and find where I mentioned Laila. It wasn't that long ago, should be on the second page by now probably.

 

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Nothing you're seeing is actually there, you seem to be expecting them to be macho emotionless destroyers marching through armies and they weren't that in book one.  They were never the macho emotionless thing at all.

I'm expecting them to have the backbones they had at this point in EOTW, or their skills, or their personality.

 

At this point in the books the boys had rode through Trollocs yelling in the Old Tongue. They had dealt with multiple Darkfriends by themselves. Perrin had killed Whitecloaks.

 

Where are these boys from the books? Why are the boys in the show always running scared, why can none of them deal with the threats to them by themselves, why are they all so useless.

Edited December 5, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[melsnitker]

2 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

strong men are toxic and must instead be portrayed as incompetent emotional cry babies.

 

45 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

can you believe that the men aren't portrayed as emotional cry babies

 

I find your repeated use of the phrase "emotional cry babies" to be troubling.

 

It may be unintentional, but you appear to be suggesting that strength and emotionality are incompatible qualities.

 

I find this implication particularly disturbing in light of the fact that it is when Rand attempts to entirely divorce himself from his emotions that he very nearly completely fails.