tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Gothic Flame]

Didn't Rafe say he was going to flip the table over on the 8th episode in regards to readers' expectations?

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Didn't Rafe say he was going to flip the table over on the 8th episode in regards to readers' expectations?

 

I haven't yet read that anywhere.

[MasterAblar]

So far nothing in the show has contradicted the books when it comes to Nyneave or Logain or Rand, so until it does I see no need to complain. I just don’t see the point in changing these things.

 

That being said the differences between saidar and saidin are not minor elements of the plot. They’re the entire reason for Asmodean not being killed: Rand needs a teacher, and none of the women can teach him. If you’re keeping that in the story, and I have a hard time seeing how you can’t, then all it takes is 1 scene of Asmodean teaching Rand to explain the very basic differences. Obviously I don’t expect the show to go into every tiny detail differentiating saidin and saidar.

 

Nonetheless I would find it very boring if one of the most detailed magic systems there is was reduced to basically nothing.

 

 

[MasterAblar]

Also Logain’s strength is what allowed him to be such a successful false dragon and later lead the counter faction to Taim in the black tower. So it’s not entirely unimportant particularly since they’re making him a more prominent character.

 

The only time Nyneave’s strength came into play was in the cleansing of saidin. And technically she could have been weaker and still used it, although not considerably so.

[Tim]

Why is Logain being stronger than any female channeller ever necessary to him being a successful false dragon, or him leading a counter faction in the black tower?

 

Why is men being generally stronger than women necessary in order for Rand to be unable to be taught by women?

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I mean, if that's what works for you. My brain works a little more like Kvothe's alar - I can hold the novels and the show in my head at the same time and recognize them as separate entities that are both the same as one another and also different with each having individual strengths and weaknesses.

Not quite.  They both definitely have strengths/weaknesses as you say.  But for me the book weaknesses weren't apparent until book 7.  I was already heavily invested, so plowed through until the books improved and finished strong.  The show is weak from the start with little prospect of improving.  I'll let others invest further.  If it appears to be improving based on reviews and forum chatter, I can jump back in.

 

No risk - other than dying unexpectedly... ?

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Yes, I would hope so since EP 4 they're already starting to establish a difference.

 

What is that incentive? 

 

If you plan on remodeling your house as an adaptation from your original design, you don't kick out your structural support beams while still inside. The WoT universal truth of the One Power is that there are two halves of it, to include differences between them. Unless the showrunners plan on completely substituting the One Power for the True Power, you will need to portray some semblance of contrast.

 

I see your statements as desires towards gender nullification for personal reasons unknown.

 

This is a common sentence opener that I've seen some show defenders often use (predominantly the bold section). It's a signal flare to publicly call for reinforcement when the user gets frustrated and annoyed, often from naysayers. No doubt you'll receive your call to arms as even N&N's such as myself get the occasional brick to the face.

 

I don't think Tim is saying make them the exactly the same. He's just saying details like "men have a higher power cap but women use more finesse" and "men are generally stronger in earth and fire and women in air and water" aren't details really necessary to adapting the story in eight seasons.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Agitel

[Tim]

(In response to Dead Warder)
 

I think the show should maintain that saidin and saidar are different. I just think it would be pointless for the show to stop every five seconds and explain that e.g. men cannot link without women when it is not important to the plot. 
 

It would be the equivalent of including  a detailed discussion of the customs of Arafel. Interesting, but a waste of valuable time.

Attribute whatever nefarious motivations to me that you like. but if there’s a good reason for Logain to be nearly as strong as Rand and a good reason for Nynaeve to not be anywhere near as strong as Rand, it should be explicable through reasoned argument rather than just attacking me.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Tim

[Tim]

All good, my first post definitely could have been clearer, and apologies for my snippy reaction.

[MasterAblar]

44 minutes ago, Tim said:

Why is Logain being stronger than any female channeller ever necessary to him being a successful false dragon, or him leading a counter faction in the black tower?

 

 

I should probably use quotes for clarity. ?

 

I was responding specifically to this:

 

Quote

Literally nothing important turns on him being nearly as strong as Rand.

 

What's "important" really depends on what scale you're thinking of. If you're thinking story altering then no obviously Logain's strength isn't that important, but if you're talking about Logain's story specifically then yes I would say his strength is important, although not his strength compared to Nyneave, which I agree is irrelevant.

 

For what it's worth Rand is clearly wary around Logain because of Logain's strength, and Mat basically straight out asks Logain if he's jealous of Rand because he's the Dragon Reborn and Logain was not. It's not a big deal but it is there.

 

44 minutes ago, Tim said:

Why is men being generally stronger than women necessary in order for Rand to be unable to be taught by women?

 

Again, lack of clarity on my part.

 

I was responding to this part:

 

Quote

There's a strong incentive to reduce the differences between saidar and saidin which has absolutely nothing to do with girl power, and everything to do with not force-feeding tv viewers with lore that doesn't really matter or make a difference to any version of the story that they would be able to fit into eight seasons.

 

The countless differences are what force Rand into seeking a male teacher. Strength doesn't make that necessary, but it is one of those differences and if you're not getting rid of the rest, why get rid of that? Turning one of the most complex and thought out magic systemes there is into just them not being able to see each other's weaves would be seriously dissapointing. Obviously I'm not expecting them to explain what circles must be led by who, and at what times there must be more women in the circle and so on. 

 

However the difference are not entirely irrelevant to the story. Healing severing has different results depending on who heals and is healed. The tainting of saidin itself is due to the differences between saidin and saidar.

 

The reason for the Last Concord existing is that it was believed women were necessary to close the bore, thanks to the deftness of their weaving. No differences, no Last Concord, no reason for it only being men who went with LTT. So why then would only saidin have been tainted? Unless Latra Posae Decume just randomly decided to only convince the women? Or all of LTT's companions just happened to be men?

 

I'm sure there are ways to handwave these things, and explain them away (or even just ignore them in some cases). But just because a story can work without these details doesn't mean it shouldn't include them, especially since it doesn't take that much time and fleshes out the One Power, which is definitely important to the story.

 

37 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I don't think Tim is saying make them the exactly the same. He's just saying details like "men have a higher power cap but women use more finesse" and "men are generally stronger in earth and fire and women in air and water" aren't details really necessary to adapting the story in eight seasons.

 

They're definitely not necessary. There's a ton of stuff you could cut out of the story bringing it nearly down to it's bare bones, and still making it work. It just wouldn't be nearly as engaging in my opinion.

 

To be clear the difference in strength is not really important. It's just part of a bunch of details which all put together are a significant part of the story. Cutting out only the first doesn't make much sense to me. And for what it's worth there's no evidence the show has done that so far.

[ArrylT]

Brief Nynaeve thought.    

 

Spoiler

As we know Nynaeve goes immediately to Accepted level of Aes Sedai - something that almost never happens in the books - so while we have no idea whether or not they will portray all the levels of Aes Sedai - this is now set up very plausibly as to a reason why she gets automatically made Accepted. 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[ArrylT]

8 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Brief Nynaeve thought.    

 

As we know Nynaeve goes immediately to Accepted level of Aes Sedai - something that almost never happens in the books - so while we have no idea whether or not they will portray all the levels of Aes Sedai - this is now set up very plausibly as to a reason why she gets automatically made Accepted.  

 

Sorry this probably is better placed in the book spoiler thread  so Moderators please feel free to use a gateway. ?

[Harad the White]

15 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

this is now set up very plausibly as to a reason why she gets automatically made Accepted.  

Sounds right to me. Not to mention Liandrin's crude attempt at recruitment. (This definitely belongs in this thread.)

[Sabio]

10 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

 

So higher numbers are bad. so when Moiraine comes back her power level is so low she'd likely have never made the shawl. That's where the ring came into play. With it she could channel close to her prior level of power. That said I'd ignore the parenthetical. That is to adjust based on the "new channelers". Before they appeared there was a 60 level scale. Afterwards what is 1 is 12 levels higher than the previous level 1. So its depicted as 1(+12). 

 

So for your brain just use the number in front :P. The second is just to do the math to convert old scale to new scale.

 

So Cadsuane is a 5 (tho with her Paralis-Net she ranks as a 1). Moiraine was a 13 then after she comes back she's a 66

 

(or in old scale. Cadsuane is off the chart at -8  because the scoring is the power AFTER she retired...so level 1 dropped to cover weaker aes sedai as the new top tier.) Moiraine is at 1 (top tier). And then after she came back she would be down at 54 of 60... So just a few levels above basically having no power at all lol.)

Thanks for the information and trying to explain RJ's madness.  That really did make my brain hurt.  I mean I honestly got a pain behind my eyes trying to work that in my head as I was reading.  ?

[CaddySedai]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

Thanks for the information and trying to explain RJ's madness.  That really did make my brain hurt.  I mean I honestly got a pain behind my eyes trying to work that in my head as I was reading.  ?

 

Glad to help lol. 

 

No aneurysms on my watch ?

[CaddySedai]

24 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Sorry this probably is better placed in the book spoiler thread  so Moderators please feel free to use a gateway. ?

 

I'd say its safe here since this thread allows book spoilers and you are using the scene in ep 4 to correlate with a book event. I see no issue with it here.

[Elder_Haman]

44 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Sorry this probably is better placed in the book spoiler thread  so Moderators please feel free to use a gateway. ?

Gateways are too fancy.

[Sabio]

9 hours ago, chri5 said:

I was reading a random chapter in a book that finally revealed Demandred and it was so underwhelming. Should have been Taimandred for sure. 
 

if that came true all of the N&Ns ? would forgive Amazon, I am sure. 

There was a post Terez did a few years back where she posted tid bits from RJ's notes.

RJ NOTES

 

In the notes towards the top half it confirms Taimidred was orginally a thing when he started writing Book 6 but RJ changed his mind.  I always assumed it was because of how quickly many guessed Taim was really Demandred.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Sabio

[Katherine]

9 hours ago, chri5 said:

I was reading a random chapter in a book that finally revealed Demandred and it was so underwhelming. Should have been Taimandred for sure. 
 

if that came true all of the N&Ns ? would forgive Amazon, I am sure. 

 

LoL you just took me back! 

 

I was sooooo sure that Taim was Demandred. To the point where a few years later when I read the complete series all the way through I was second guessing my memory. RJ REALLY faked me out there. 

[Katherine]

4 hours ago, Tim said:

Why is Logain being stronger than any female channeller ever necessary to him being a successful false dragon, or him leading a counter faction in the black tower?

 

Why is men being generally stronger than women necessary in order for Rand to be unable to be taught by women?

 

I don't remember Logain's strength being all that important except as exposition to explain the  differences between saidar and saidin..... The only other time it might have come into play 

 

Spoiler

is when Pevara and Co. go to the Black Tower and he is able to bond several of the moderatly powerful Red Ajah with ease. 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Katherine

[Theseus78]

One thing that's come to mind in regards to the strenghts of female vs male channelers: In TEOtW, Moraine states that men weren't stronger than women.  Turns out, she was wrong.  It makes sense to imply to the viewer that men aren't generally stronger than women in season 1, even if we later learn that it isn't true.  After all, after book one you'd think that except for The Dragon, men and women were basically equal in strength too. 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Theseus78 said:

After all, after book one you'd think that except for The Dragon, men and women were basically equal in strength too. 

A fair point since the reader isn't privy to how reds operate beyond taking a team to handle a man channeling, which would simply be prudent.

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

One thing that's come to mind in regards to the strenghts of female vs male channelers: In TEOtW, Moraine states that men weren't stronger than women.  Turns out, she was wrong.  It makes sense to imply to the viewer that men aren't generally stronger than women in season 1, even if we later learn that it isn't true.  After all, after book one you'd think that except for The Dragon, men and women were basically equal in strength too. 

 

Agreed, there's no reason it would be brought up in book 1. Strictly speaking, I believe Moiraine was talking about strength in the 5 powers no?

[Joe B]

On 11/29/2021 at 2:29 PM, Ralph said:

"There is no possible way the eyes and ears could know there are four ta'veren."

Easy:

Min went "down country" for whatever reason, and ended up in EF. She ended up viewing the EF5. Later, it came up in conversation with Moiraine. You can write whatever you need in order to fill in the gaps and make it fit into the story of your adaption.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Joe B
Wrong words typed

[Kudzu]

3 hours ago, Joe B said:

Easy:

Min went "down country" for whatever reason, and ended up in EF. She ended up viewing the EF5. Later, it came up in conversation with Moiraine. You can write whatever you need in order to fill in the gaps and make it fit into the story of your adaption.

 

The problem with that, as I just said in another thread is that then it isn't a rumour and certainly not rumours plural. It's direct information.