tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Sabio]

9 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

Wha? Moiraine was at the formerly recognized top level of power amongst the Aes Sedai. 

 

Well, aside from Cadsuane who was heads taller in power than anyone up until those young whippersnappers showed up ?

 

And then the Chosen also showed back up <.< ?

Honestly not sure anymore, I always took it that Moiraine was middle of the pack, but the strength lvls are so confusing,  The companion has Moiriane, Elaida, and Siuan at 13(1) and Cadsuane at 5(+8), Egwene and Elayne at 8(+5) 8(+5), and Nyn at 4(+9) with a potential of 3(+10).  Then it changes to a whole different scale showing  Siuan to 35(23) after her stilling and Moiraine to 66(54) when she comes back.  So who the heck knows,  I never understood how RJ never came up with just a simple power scale,

[Tim]

I tend to think the whole "who is the DR?" angle has been well done so far. Obviously if you've read the books you know who it is (and there really, really is no way that this will change - so far the show has been broadly faithful to each main character's in-book arc with the exception of Perrin having a wife, which was ahem dispensed with in the first episode), and given the show has to date left the prospects wide open, I don't really buy that new audiences will feel betrayed when the answer is revealed. Why would they? It's certainly rather less of a bait-and-switch than such book plot developments as:

Spoiler

Taim not being Demandred, or Alivia helping Rand to "die" by giving him a change of clothes

 

I think the reveal will come reasonably proximate to Min declaring that they all (all the EF5) matter - i.e. we will learn that Rand is the DR, while at the same time understanding that story will remain an ensemble story even if Rand is structurally at the head.

 

Incidentally, I think Dana declaring in episode 3 that she sees all 5 of them in her dreams was in part a nod to the deleted scene of Min telling Rand in Baerlon that "she's [Nynaeve] part of it too" - Mat interprets it as a reference to the DR (and episode 4 makes a lot of hay from that), and it is in part (Dana certainly frames it that way) but it can carry the additional meaning of the ongoing importance of the entire EF5 throughout the series.

[Sabio]

5 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

So...getting rid of "Shaido" and "Seanchan"...just a rumor?

I could see how the Shaido might not be needed in a short series but the Seanchan play too big of a role to just totally get removed.  I would like to see the Shaido at least get snipped down alot.  I'm honestly not sure how they can do much in just eight 1hour episodes.  So much is going to have to get cut out.  Now considering how slow some of the later books were, that might not be a bad thing. But when you have only an hour to try and devote to what the four or five main groups are doing and add the new characters stories also.

[Tim]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Wow. Is this the origin of your "Thom was lying about Owyn = Matt" theory? Incredible. I don't believe it, but, incredible!

Not the origin, but I did wonder if they might have Thom understand more of the significance of red hair on a non-Aiel then they have let on (or than he seemed to understand in the books). 

In honesty what prompted me to think Thom might be thinking Rand can channel is that the whole conversation between them reminded me of a conversation I had when I was a teenager and in the closet (i.e. I knew I was gay but I had not told anyone). 

 

In conversation with me, a friend raised the fact of someone else being gay and said they weren't bothered about it and also had an uncle who was gay - and later admitted to me that it was their way of letting me know they were fine with me being gay without explicitly putting the proposition to me so as to not put me on the spot.

[Sabio]

7 minutes ago, Tim said:

I tend to think the whole "who is the DR?" angle has been well done so far. Obviously if you've read the books you know who it is (and there really, really is no way that this will change - so far the show has been broadly faithful to each main character's in-book arc with the exception of Perrin having a wife, which was ahem dispensed with in the first episode), and given the show has to date left the prospects wide open, I don't really buy that new audiences will feel betrayed when the answer is revealed. Why would they? It's certainly rather less of a bait-and-switch than such book plot developments as:

  Hide contents

Taim not being Demandred, or Alivia helping Rand to "die" by giving him a change of clothes

 

I think the reveal will come reasonably proximate to Min declaring that they all (all the EF5) matter - i.e. we will learn that Rand is the DR, while at the same time understanding that story will remain an ensemble story even if Rand is structurally at the head.

 

Incidentally, I think Dana declaring in episode 3 that she sees all 5 of them in her dreams was in part a nod to the deleted scene of Min telling Rand in Baerlon that "she's [Nynaeve] part of it too" - Mat interprets it as a reference to the DR (and episode 4 makes a lot of hay from that), and it is in part (Dana certainly frames it that way) but it can carry the additional meaning of the ongoing importance of the entire EF5 throughout the series.

OHHHHH god I so hope the show introduces Taimadred.  That would make every old time reader who guessed Taim was Damandred so happy.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Sabio

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Tim said:

Not the origin, but I did wonder if they might have Thom understand more of the significance of red hair on a non-Aiel then they have let on (or than he seemed to understand in the books). 

One reason I don't buy it, is that Thom shouldn't have any knowledge of the prophecy, and especially would not know more than Moiraine. Past Dragons, like LTT, presumably don't have that characteristic, so only this particular DR would be pointed to. Without the Book prophecy, Thom is in the dark. So, the part of the theory that Thom is misdirecting from Rand to Matt doesn't make sense. 

 

What is the origin? My unsatisfying theory, as you may know, is that the Amazon writers used the unconvincing Matt=Owyn story to further their aims of misdirection about the identity of the DR.

[Tim]

Actually, no. In the books Thom would know this prophecy as well as if not better than Moiraine, given he regularly has to perform the Karaethon Cycle by heart. The Karaethon Cycle says both the line I quoted and that the DR shall be "born of a maiden wedded to no man".

However we currently have no idea whether the Karaethon Cycle is even a thing in the show, let alone a thing Thom knows, let alone a thing containing the same contents, let alone something Thom could accurately decipher.

So in summary, Thom may or may not have an inkling that Rand is the DR - WAFO!
 

[Sabio]

I would say if this was the book Thom he would have more knowledge than the average person but not as much as Moiriane (since she has access to Tower records also).  He does tell stories about the Prophecies and in Book 2 (I believe) he did count Rand's herons but he never connected Rand looking sort of looking like an Aiel to being the DR.  Book series Thom I would guess is pretty clueless and as Harad says it's just meant to make you think Mat can channel.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Sabio

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Tim said:

and that the DR shall be "born of a maiden wedded to no man"

Does this refer to every DR? We know there are many DRs, both male and female -- does the red hairing/Aiel connection still apply? And, of course Thom would have to know more than Moiraine, who didn't pick out Rand particularly among the candidates.

[Tim]

To be clear, my theory is not that Thom thinks Rand is the DR due to his hair - I'm just pointing out that there's no way of confidently extrapolating from the books on this point - but rather that he might think Rand or Mat can channel, regardless of how he makes the point to Rand.

[CaddySedai]

32 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Honestly not sure anymore, I always took it that Moiraine was middle of the pack, but the strength lvls are so confusing,  The companion has Moiriane, Elaida, and Siuan at 13(1) and Cadsuane at 5(+8), Egwene and Elayne at 8(+5) 8(+5), and Nyn at 4(+9) with a potential of 3(+10).  Then it changes to a whole different scale showing  Siuan to 35(23) after her stilling and Moiraine to 66(54) when she comes back.  So who the heck knows,  I never understood how RJ never came up with just a simple power scale,

 

So higher numbers are bad. so when Moiraine comes back her power level is so low she'd likely have never made the shawl. That's where the ring came into play. With it she could channel close to her prior level of power. That said I'd ignore the parenthetical. That is to adjust based on the "new channelers". Before they appeared there was a 60 level scale. Afterwards what is 1 is 12 levels higher than the previous level 1. So its depicted as 1(+12). 

 

So for your brain just use the number in front :P. The second is just to do the math to convert old scale to new scale.

 

So Cadsuane is a 5 (tho with her Paralis-Net she ranks as a 1). Moiraine was a 13 then after she comes back she's a 66

 

(or in old scale. Cadsuane is off the chart at -8  because the scoring is the power AFTER she retired...so level 1 dropped to cover weaker aes sedai as the new top tier.) Moiraine is at 1 (top tier). And then after she came back she would be down at 54 of 60... So just a few levels above basically having no power at all lol.)

Edited November 30, 2021 by CaddySedai

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

Logain makes the slightly different point that the voices are telling him how to be a better dragon. I think Moiraine is understandably dismissive, because it sounds vainglorious: I am the dragon, and I have voices inside my head telling me how to be the best dragon ever.

Except that we get to hear the voices advising him to do vicious and spiteful things (e.g. kill the king of Ghealdan) and he is trying to do better by choosing to do the opposite (heal him).

[DaddyFinn]

48 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

And this scene may be why they didn't have the prologue with LTT.   If they had and then had shown this scene it would have told anyone with a modicum of intelligence that Rand is the DR.

Rafe has said he wants to show the prologue after we have got to know LTT a bit better

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Tim said:

To be clear, my theory is not that Thom thinks Rand is the DR due to his hair - I'm just pointing out that there's no way of confidently extrapolating from the books on this point - but rather that he might think Rand or Mat can channel, regardless of how he makes the point to Rand.

According to your theory, Thom lies to Rand, saying Matt needs protection from the AS, seemingly ignoring the possibility that Rand also needs protection. That would jive with my idea that Thom doesn't really have convincing evidence for Matt=Owyn. You go further that despite lack of evidence, he says so, to influence Rand. That is subtlety out the wazoo for all but the most esoteric of televised art. My theory is unsatisfying, but this isn't any better. ?  Oh well, all attempts are appreciated.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

I think the prophecy was that the DR would be born of the ancient blood and raised by the old blood - meaning the Aiel and the descendants of Manetheren, respectively. I don't think Moiraine knew what that meant in the books (or not at first), and it would be surprising for Thom to understand it - but it's notionally possible either that in the show the prophecy will give another more explicit hint regarding Aiel heritage, or that Thom could have put two and two together once he saw Rand's hair and heard Dana say one of them is the dragon.

Or if the deal Aiel in the cage means they have already started their hunt across the dragonwall then Thom may have spoken to one before and been aware that they are hunting one of their own raised in the "wetlands" and been interested in Rand on that account - Aiel accept gleemen in the waste and would be accustomed to asking them for news.

[Harad the White]

6 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Except that we get to hear the voices advising him to do vicious and spiteful things (e.g. kill the king of Ghealdan) and he is trying to do better by choosing to do the opposite (heal him).

I agree. However, the latest counter-argument is that Logain is not mad ENOUGH yet, so he resists the voices that later will drive him mad. You can't win.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or if the deal Aiel in the cage means they have already started their hunt across the dragonwall then Thom may have spoken to one before and been aware that they are hunting one of their own raised in the "wetlands" and been interested in Rand on that account - Aiel accept gleemen in the waste and would be accustomed to asking them for news.

It's not worth arguing the point that Thom is attracted to an Aiel-like DR candidate. What does he do after? He tells Rand that he thinks it's Matt. I don't buy this as a strategy.

[notpropaganda73]

7 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

I think that anyone hoping that the show is going to  be truthful to the books and that the differences at the moment are just to help the DR mystery is actually being naive. The fact we rushed through book material in order to get to the Rafe created material at which point we immediately slowed down is proof enough of that.

 

If you like the show independently of the books and don't mind that four episodes in they've ignored or changed even minor bits of lore that they didn't even need to change for what they were doing then you'll be fine. If your still using the books as a guide for what's happening though I think your going to be very disappointed.

 

The true test will be when episode 8 drops. I can sense a big twist coming, you don't change everything in order to accommodate a mystery only to then give everyone the obvious answer.

 

Also ask yourself this, why did they take Rand's epiphany and give it to Logain just so that Moiraine could laugh at it? Maybe because there isn't going to be a need for Rand to have that epiphany. Maybe because Rand's entire plot line has been changed.

Amazing, on the one hand comments from Rafe about "changes to the lore" are absolutely 100% true no matter what, and proof that the entire show is his own arrogant creation and he's ripping up the source material without a care for the book lovers. On the other hand, the fact that Rafe has explicitly stated that all book readers will know who the Dragon is in the show, that isn't enough to trust that Rand is the DR and that his plot line has not been changed. 

 

Someone talked about mental gymnastics a few episodes back in relation to the Whitecloaks - Moiraine scene in the show, and honestly I think the mental gymnastics it takes to see negativity on all sides with this show is something else entirely. It must be absolutely exhausting. 

 

I'm just not going to engage any more, it's souring the whole thing for me. 

 

 

[Ralph]

Re Mat and the quarterstaff, we have a clear inference in RJ's statements that that scene will occur, but I have been wondering how they will play it. 

 

I do think they have tried to move away from the backwards villagers being astonishingly competent with arms, possibly Tam excepted. They took away Perrin's axe, I assume bc it makes no sense that a village blacksmith made a top of the art weapon of war for a wagon guard, as the Whitecloaks comment in EotW. Similarly no sign of expertise with the bow so far

Edited November 30, 2021 by Ralph

[Harad the White]

23 minutes ago, Ralph said:

They took away Perrin's axe, I

That's an interesting topic, where Amazon's take is arguably as good for the story as the Book's. Perrin doesn't have any use for a killing weapon yet, so the introduction, can be a notable scene to come.

[chri5]

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

OHHHHH god I so hope the show introduces Taimadred.  That would make every old time reader who guessed Taim was Damandred so happy.

I was reading a random chapter in a book that finally revealed Demandred and it was so underwhelming. Should have been Taimandred for sure. 
 

if that came true all of the N&Ns ? would forgive Amazon, I am sure. 

[AusLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

So who the heck knows,  I never understood how RJ never came up with just a simple power scale,

RJ seems to have at times changed his mind about characters power levels for various reasons.

 

A good example where that change ended up meaning nothing was Aviendha. Introduced as being roughly on the same level as Elayne and Egwene when she had a strong character arc, RJ appeared to lose interest in her sometime after TFOH when her character arc was paused and the companion later listed her strength as being just under halfway between them and Moiraine. Of course RJ used Aviendha as little more than Elayne's sidekick for the last half of the series he wrote so this change wasn't noticeable.

 

The power scaling is going to be interesting in the show though. Four episodes in and we already have Nynaeve going Super Saiyan to heal 7 or so people at once including a mortal wound seconds from causing death. They've got to go bigger than that for the DR reveal, the Forsaken and the One Power use in general as the seasons go on in order to keep people impressed. Going to end up being very expensive on the visual effects budget.

[MasterAblar]

4 hours ago, Tim said:

Although I do not share AusLeviathan's negativity, I agree that it seems likely that the show will make Nynaeve a more powerful channeler than Logain, and perhaps the second most powerful light-side channeler after Rand.

 

Good!

 

RJ's power differential versus linking ability approach was perhaps the most ham-fisted of the gender separation ideas in the books (men have more strength but women can work together is like if someone's main problem with men are from mars, women are from venus was that it was too nuanced), and the idea that they would make it possible for women to be the dragon but not junk that is bizarre to me. 

 

 

I never took the differences between saidar and saidin to mean that one specific thing balanced the other but rather that it was an overall balance between the 2. Linking and strength differential are not the only differences between the 2. There’s differences in the 5 powers, which could have repercussion in depending on what Talents use which powers. There’s differences in how they detect other channellers, in how they detect each other’s strengths, differences in the makeup of circles and which must be led by women and which must be led by men. There’s countless differences which all balance each other out.

 

Obviously I don’t expect them fit all the minute details of channeling and the differences between saidar and saidin into the show, but with linking having already been brought into the show, you either allow the men to do so as well, or you need to introduce something else to balance the scales which isn’t strength. Balance is one of the biggest if not the biggest them in the stories so it would be jarring if it wasn’t the case with channeling.

[MasterAblar]

Also Logain is basically mirrored version of Demandred. Making Logain a bigger character and doing with that would be a shame. And if you keep it then Nyneave being stronger than Logain would make her as strong as Rand.

 

Doesnt really seem all that complicated to me to simply have Asmodean point out that yeah men have a higher potential strength, but that it’s only one element of channeling and Rand would be a fool to rely on it exclusively.

[Tim]

Do we really expect TV show viewers to keep track of the various differences between saidar and saidin anyway? Especially given (until the black tower) there is basically no opportunity for men to link even if they can, there's really no reason to maintain the distinction at all. There's a strong incentive to reduce the differences between saidar and saidin which has absolutely nothing to do with girl power, and everything to do with not force-feeding tv viewers with lore that doesn't really matter or make a difference to any version of the story that they would be able to fit into eight seasons.

 

It's possible that Logain was intended to be a mirror of Demandred but that's not where AMOL took him. He's not even a mirror of Taim. Literally nothing important turns on him being nearly as strong as Rand. And it's not like RJ had devoted much attention to him in the pre-BS books.

 

I find it interesting that so many people complain that the show making Nynaeve (possibly) seem almost as strong as Rand takes away from the specialness of Rand's story, but presumably those same people don't find it odd that RJ made Logain nearly as strong as Rand even though he seemingly couldn't be bothered to give him a decent storyline.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Tim
trying to work out which words I included flagged this for moderator approval