tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[TheDreadReader]

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I'm gonna just move the discussion on a bit - does anyone think with Logain's larger role early on in the show, will Rand zone in on him as a potential teacher early? Will we get Asmodean and the "whodunnit" in the show? It was a huge deal for book readers at the time but I must admit it wasn't something that was all that interesting to me, outside of Rand losing his teacher. If Logain is more experienced/has been "taught" (whether by his madness/past lives/Forsaken whisperers), could he be a good candidate to teach Rand some things? 

 

 

I have thought since it became clear that Rafe was going to expand on Logain's storyline that having him found the Black Tower made more sense than having Taim do it.   I've kind of backed off on that thought since the show came out because of how they seem to be laying the ground work for Tower politics far earlier than RJ did in the books. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Although my memory is hazy, didn't Rand avoid the Black Tower/Logain for a long time. I can't remember his reasoning. 

 

I don't remember exactly why either although I think hearing LTT talk about needing to kill the Ashaman may have played a part.

 

 

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Personally, I always wanted more of Logain in the books and I loved the actors' portrayal in this episode, so the more we get of him the better imo. 

 

I agree.  I think the expansion of the Logain story has been a net positive.

 

 

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I'm gonna just move the discussion on a bit - does anyone think with Logain's larger role early on in the show, will Rand zone in on him as a potential teacher early? Will we get Asmodean and the "whodunnit" in the show? It was a huge deal for book readers at the time but I must admit it wasn't something that was all that interesting to me, outside of Rand losing his teacher. If Logain is more experienced/has been "taught" (whether by his madness/past lives/Forsaken whisperers), could he be a good candidate to teach Rand some things? 

 

Although my memory is hazy, didn't Rand avoid the Black Tower/Logain for a long time. I can't remember his reasoning. 

 

Personally, I always wanted more of Logain in the books and I loved the actors' portrayal in this episode, so the more we get of him the better imo. 

 

Gonna have a hard time teaching while he's gentled. Asmodean is already dead by the time Logain is healed. Since it would be crazy to not have Nyneave healing him, they're gonna have to move things around a whole lot to make it possible.

 

That and I doubt Rand would trust Logain. He certainly didn't in the books.

 

I do agree I think his portrayal has been fantastic, so interested to see how they keep him involved before the tower schism.

[DojoToad]

30 minutes ago, flinn said:

 If Nynaeve is this powerful, does that mean Rand is going to be that much more powerful than Nynaeve?

 

 I always thought Logain was just a few steps behind Rand in strength, but he isnt even a shadow in comparison to Nynaeve and if Rand is that much stronger than Nynaeve, then Rand is going to be moving mountains around.

I wouldn't be surprised if they moved Rand's power down considering other changes that have been made.

[AusLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I don't see what it has to do with changing the souls though. What do you mean by that?

The DR being the strongest channeler is the problem. It means that a person must retain the same strength as their previous life and since you can be born as either gender this means that the disparity between strength could no longer exist.

 

11 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The Wheel of Time is about 5 young folks from Emond's Field thrust into the wider world where they will be the most important players in a battle against dark forces. The show is following that trajectory.

That's the bare bones they've kept. The characters, the lore, the rules of the world have all been ripped up and destroyed. Then they sped up book events to throw in their own plot points which they gave a lot of time.

 

This series has little to do with the books series I first read twelve years ago, I barely recognize it.

 

11 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

at least generous enough to believe the showrunner and advisors, who've read the books more times than any of us, know this, and it's most likely that Logain can't see the weaves, but sees something else...Nynaeve as Taveran

The book consultant who works with the showrunner and the writing team to help the show stick to the lore first claimed that Logain didn't see anything and was feeling a shockwave then changed her story to say that Nynaeve must have created a light with her weave before ending her tweet with a shrugging emoji,

 

You still think that this was fully thought out and everyone understood what they were doing with that scene.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, DojoToad said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they moved Rand's power down considering other changes that have been made.

What changes do you feel would result in Rand being weaker?

[2RiversFan]

40 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

52 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

She does though because he's a very strong male channeler, stronger than any women can be,

How would Moiraine know this? How much experience does she have with male channelers? How often has she had to compare between a very strong woman and a man? How would she know that men are generally stronger in the power?

 

Would the Reds even know? We know that as the Wheel begins to turn to the next age, the strength and prevalence of channelers begins to increase. I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make - I haven't followed this chain closely. But these arguments are just navel gazing.

Actually, yes the Reds and Moiraine would know to a relative degree.  There are numerous descriptions in books discussing how Saidar wielders and Saidin wielders can sense the strength of the opposite when in direct conflict with each other.

Think about Rand/Egwene/Elayne in the Stone (Chapter 7 of tSR).  Egwene and Elayne are shocked at Rand's strength.

But having said that, I don't think the show has painted itself in a corner.  The depictions in the show can be explained by things that haven't been revealed or thought through completely at this point.  I think we're seeing similarities here in the shows journey that are very similar to things that RJ himself dealt with during his interviews.  Many people are finding faults (canon mistakes, etc) where there were none, and would try to call him out.  Just check out many of the interviews on Theoryland.  https://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

[ArrylT]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Wait, you're conflating two things. The DR is going to be "the most powerful channeler". So by extension, if Egwene is more powerful than Logain, then Logain is not the DR. Egwene isn't "a good benchmark", it's simply a point of reference.

 

All Lan is doing is helping Moiraine to process the information. She's having doubts about whether she found the correct people, or whether Logain might really be the Dragon. He's stronger than anything she ever experienced before.

 

I'm not really sure what the issue is here. Logain is really strong. Egwene and Nynaeve are also very strong. This is all canon. Relative strengths in the power is not something they are going to be worried about for tv purposes. Especially once they introduce angreal.

 

Which we know will likely happen since we got a shot of an angreal in the prologue that is pretty accurate to the description of it (imo) in the books.  

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

 

I can guarantee the whole men's potential being stronger than women part is definitively gone though, they kind of had to in order to make the whole DR can be a women thing and souls without gender thing work.

Guarantee is strong, but I have no doubt you are correct.

[WhiteVeils]

3 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

It's changed alot of thoughts actually, which is why we are seeing a ton of discussion about this specific topic.

90+% of the books are people's individual thoughts about different topics.  We don't know Logain's thoughts at this point in the story, so we can't have them be dramatically changed by his knowledge that Nynaeve can heal like this.  Nothing in his later POV views of the story would change a thing about what he thought when we do finally get his POV chapters.

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

The DR being the strongest channeler is the problem. It means that a person must retain the same strength as their previous life and since you can be born as either gender this means that the disparity between strength could no longer exist.

 

Is it actually explicitely state that the Dragon Reborn is the strongest a channeler can be? Not saying otherwise I just don't remember if that's actually in books or show. Obviously LTT was but there's no way anyone but the Forsaken would actually know that beyond doubt.

 

In any case, it's pretty clearly stated that raw strength is only one facet of being a channeler and that all things considered the strengths and weakness of saidin and saidar balance each other out. Lanfear is just as powerful a channeler as Ishamael or LTT, despite having lower strength.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

Actually, yes the Reds and Moiraine would know to a relative degree.  There are numerous descriptions in books discussing how Saidar wielders and Saidin wielders can sense the strength of the opposite when in direct conflict with each other.

Think about Rand/Egwene/Elayne in the Stone (Chapter 7 of tSR).  Egwene and Elayne are shocked at Rand's strength.

But having said that, I don't think the show has painted itself in a corner.  The depictions in the show can be explained by things that haven't been revealed or thought through completely at this point.  I think we're seeing similarities here in the shows journey that are very similar to things that RJ himself dealt with during his interviews.  Many people are finding faults (canon mistakes, etc) where there were none, and would try to call him out.  Just check out many of the interviews on Theoryland.  https://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

 

They're shocked he's so much stronger than they are, but that doesn't allow them to know exactly how strong. Just that the difference is considerable. And Rand was actively channelling then, Logain wasn't.

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What changes do you feel would result in Rand being weaker?

Changes?  Rafe will make him weaker so he is not outstripping the female channelers.  Wouldn't want them to feel bad about their own roles in taking down the DO.

[ManetherenTaveren]

41 minutes ago, flinn said:

If Nynaeve is this powerful, does that mean Rand is going to be that much more powerful than Nynaeve?

Rand (or another mysterious DR) with Callandor/Choedan Kal  is going to be phenomenal...one will probably need a 4k and 75" screen just to witness his/her true glory/chaos...even IMAX probably won't do it justice. ?

[MasterAblar]

Just now, DojoToad said:

Changes?  Rafe will make him weaker so he is not outstripping the female channelers.  Wouldn't want them to feel bad about their own roles in taking down the DO.

 

Rand gets completely smacked around by Lanfear despite all his strength. Strength isn't everything. Asmodean spells that out to Rand.

[KakitaOCU]

I see us diving back into "Since they changed it to allow anyone to be male or female..."

They didn't.  Rafe specifically said the change he focused on was the idea that everyone took that line of the prophecy as 100% accurate.

There is no chance of the Dragon being a woman.  That people are mistakenly believing that is not a change to the lore of Saidin and Saidar.  That the closest thing we have to an expert (Moraine) misjudges how strength works when she's never directly dealt with the subject is not a big deal.

This is IN the books.  Egwene and Elayne KNOW that "Men are stronger"  And then have that confrontation with Rand who manhandles them both effortlessly and they're SHOCKED.  They're confused, they didn't understand just how much stronger we were talking and they were THERE with it.

So if Egwene and Elayne IN THE BOOKS can be blindsided by the strength gap and underestimate it.  You think maybe, just maybe, Moraine in the show might do the same?

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

In any case, it's pretty clearly stated that raw strength is only one facet of being a channeler and that all things considered the strengths and weakness of saidin and saidar balance each other out. Lanfear is just as powerful a channeler as Ishamael or LTT, despite having lower strength.

And there are different ways to manifest power, such as offense, defense, healing, and telling a good joke.

[MasterAblar]

Just now, Harad the White said:

And there are different ways to manifest power, such as offense, defense, healing, and telling a good joke.

 

Especially telling a good joke.

[notpropaganda73]

14 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

That's the bare bones they've kept. The characters, the lore, the rules of the world have all been ripped up and destroyed. Then they sped up book events to throw in their own plot points which they gave a lot of time.

 

This series has little to do with the books series I first read twelve years ago, I barely recognize it.

 

Your opinion is yours and I'm not going to be able to change it, but I certainly feel like I'm in the world of WoT when watching the show. Your experience isn't everyone's, and everyone isn't enjoying it like I am, and that's ok. But I don't like definitive statements that (to me) are very hyperbolic. 

 

I understand if you are simply "out" on the show, like DojoToad. I understand being annoyed at things in the show and wanting to vent, or to discuss why while people bring up counter points etc. That's what is great about forums like these and what was great about the WoT fandom all the way back to the early days of the internet with the theories that flew around.

 

I don't understand (and this isn't necessarily aimed at you particularly, I'm now venting in general lol) any implication that those that are enjoying the show that they are simply wrong for liking it, or that we are naive believing or theorising about what the show is trying to do, while your own view of what the show has done is definitively true.

 

 

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Rand gets completely smacked around by Lanfear despite all his strength. Strength isn't everything. Asmodean spells that out to Rand.

Yes.  Techniques and experience are at least as important as strength.  But he'll still be weaker.

[Harad the White]

Especially in the Books, battle and victory were collaborative efforts. It makes little difference who was the "strongest" when the strongest alone can't prevail.

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes.  Techniques and experience are at least as important as strength.  But he'll still be weaker.

 

I mean if you say so, but seems like a rather nonsensical change for anyone who understands the basics of the One Power.

[WhiteVeils]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes.  Techniques and experience are at least as important as strength.  But he'll still be weaker.

You have no idea if he'll be weaker, or how much weaker. You are presuming he will be weaker based on your presumption of some sort of agenda on Rafe's behalf.  There hasn't been an a whit of evidence for it in the show.  The only thing that is there to base this idea around is that Rafe has said he was a feminist....a person who believes that men and women should be equal.  Which was part of the entire point of Wheel of Time. 

[Ralph]

15 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

They're shocked he's so much stronger than they are, but that doesn't allow them to know exactly how strong. Just that the difference is considerable. And Rand was actively channelling then, Logain wasn't.

 

She could feel Logain pushing at the shield she had just put in place. That's why Liandrin says that is half his power. 

 

[Ralph]

19 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Is it actually explicitely state that the Dragon Reborn is the strongest a channeler can be? Not saying otherwise I just don't remember if that's actually in books or show. Obviously LTT was but there's no way anyone but the Forsaken would actually know that beyond doubt.

 

 

Mat said it in ep2

[WhiteVeils]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Mat said it in ep2

 

<grin> Font of all wisdom and knowledge there, eh?