tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Clearly Logain is much stronger than Egwene and Moiraine is hiding this from Lan because she's afraid that he's a darkfriend and she doesn't want the shadow to know.

I never said that. But there's no way for Moiraine to know their relative strengths in other than extremely general terms.

[AusLeviathan]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

It'd be nice if you discussed the points being made instead of jumping to weird hyperbole so you can dismiss others.

What am I dismissing? I'm agreeing with everyone that Logain is much stronger than Egwene and Nynaeve.

 

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This idea that Logain covered his eyes, so that means he could see is silly. Covering your face is a natural reaction to anything flying at you. Logain experienced a massive blast of the One Power, powerful enough to heal multiple people at once and he reacted to it by throwing his hands up.

Perhaps she healed Logain's cataracts.

 

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I never said that. But there's no way for Moiraine to know their relative strengths in other than extremely general terms.

She does though because he's a very strong male channeler, stronger than any women can be, there's no question that Logain is more powerful, it's in the books and they'd never change something like that.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

What am I dismissing? I'm agreeing with everyone that Logain is much stronger than Egwene and Nynaeve.

 

What are you dismissing?  To give one.

Statement: Moraine has a childhood of being told to watch every word and look for hidden meanings in everything.  Then gets sent to a place where they do it even more.  Then gets exposed to a prophecy that'll shape the world and finds out even her most trusted sisters might be evil.   Because of all this she is cagey and deceptive out of habit and practice, even if she doesn't need to be.  The books support this.

You: Clearly Moraine is lying to Lan because she thinks he's a Darkfriend!

You are taking reasoning statements that are inviting discussion and going to weird extremes with them so that you can dismiss and belittle them.  I genuinely don't understand why.

[2RiversFan]

4 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Everyone can have their own theory though. I'm going to be waiting for popcorn when people realize that the changes they think are only being implied to keep the DR mystery going are actually real changes that will affect the entire series.

I'm not one that would accept a change as big as this at all.  If it were to happen, I would denounce this adaptation and join my voice with all of the rest of the naysayers.

But quite simply, I don't believe that is going to happen.  In fact, I think you and many of the others who are against/dislike/hate the show have fallen away due to the mis-directions that are aimed at non-book readers.
 

• Rafe stated on multiple occasions that they want to play up the mystery of who is the DR. 
  • I suspect (like most of us) that this was done to gather and capture a wider audience for the show.  Societies all around the Globe are different today than in the time when RJ (Robert Jordan, not Rafe Judkins) wrote.  People in general are much more sensitive to gender issues than in the 80's and 90's.  As an aside, it could be argued that RJs work contributed to the changing consciousness of societies, even considering that a very small proportion of the world population as a whole have read WoT.  He certainly brought it to the forefront for the  SF/Fantasy genre.
  • Playing up the mystery of who is the DR is also something that I (personally) think is sort of disingenuous, because I believe that RJ didn't write EotW to have his reader's trying to guess who the DR is, since it's made clear in Tam's 'fever dreams' exactly who the DR is.  He wrote EotW trying to convey that none of the characters knew who it may have been (among the ONLY three possibilities of Mat, Perrin, and Rand) until he is fully revealed at the Eye. 
  • However, that the show DID make this a thing is not so bad.  Aside from bringing in and holding people that are FOR all of the changes that have occurred between the 90's and now, it is also true to RJ himself - in so far as RJ used mystery, mis-direction, and red herrings in many of his plotlines (Who killed Asmodean??? is one example).
• It is also important to note that Moiraine herself has only ever stated there are 4 possibilities among the Emond's Fielders for who can be the DR.  Presumably, this is due to the strict age limitation of Gitara Moroso's Foretelling of the DR's birth.  (perhaps they've increased Egwene's age to be the same as the boys? To my knowledge, they haven't pinned Egwenes age exactly). 
  • Only the Darkfriend Dana has mentioned that there are 5 possiblities.   This is consistent with the books in that the Dark One doesn't know of Gitara's Foretelling, and none of the Black Ajah ever found out about it either (if memory serves correctly).
• Rafe also answered two very relevant questions in the Reddit Q&A  https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/24/reddit-ama-with-rafe-judkins/
  • Q: Can you please tell us what was the motivation to change the book-lore of channeling being linked with the soul? As we are seeing a Saidar channeler being a potential Dragon, do you think it won’t have a massive butterfly effect on the story going forward?
    A: WAFO
  • Q: As I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    A: The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we’ve just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

With those answers, I'm much more willing to watch the show and at minimum give it this first season before deciding to continue supporting it.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

She does though because he's a very strong male channeler, stronger than any women can be,

How would Moiraine know this? How much experience does she have with male channelers? How often has she had to compare between a very strong woman and a man? How would she know that men are generally stronger in the power?

 

Would the Reds even know? We know that as the Wheel begins to turn to the next age, the strength and prevalence of channelers begins to increase. I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make - I haven't followed this chain closely. But these arguments are just navel gazing.

[MasterAblar]

These are the fact until we know otherwise:

 

Until stated otherwise men cannot sense a woman's strength and the same holds true in reverse. If you choose to believe they have changed this that's you assuming things based on your perception of the show, the showrunner, and the writers.

 

Moiraine specifically says she doesn't know how strong Logain is. She is stating straight out that she cannot judge his strength accurately. She says she doesn't think he's stronger than Egwene because she has never known anyone stronger than Egwene. There hasn't been someone stronger than her at the Tower in generations. The only way she has of judging Logain's strength is on the basis of any 2 person combination of herself, Kerene, Liandrin and Alanna being able to maintain a shield on him. All of these, particularly Moiraine and Kerene are among the strongest of the Aes Sedai. Again, until stated otherwise this is all she has to go on.

 

There are only 2 explanations for Logain breaking through the shield like it was nothing later on: someone intentionally weakened it, or Logain was able to break it the whole time but waited for the right moment. If Liandrin intentionally weakened it then that was plain suicidal of her. Letting him go with no backup around, Logain's army attacking, and she seemingly wasn't prepared at all since she didn't defend herself in the slightest. The last in particular makes it incredibly unlikely she choose to weaken her shield.

 

If Logain was able to break through the shield the whole time, then Moiraine's "assessment" of his strength was based on false premises and her statement is meaningless, and that's considering how uncertain she was to begin with.

Edited November 29, 2021 by MasterAblar

[AusLeviathan]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You are taking reasoning statements that are inviting discussion and going to weird extremes with them so that you can dismiss and belittle them.  I genuinely don't understand why.

Perhaps the combination of this episode ripping up so much of the book, ruining so many things, destroying so much lore and Nynaeve going supernova was too much for me.

 

Perhaps I'm just tired of being told that the show makes sense, I just need to combine the show lore with the book lore, throw out everything that doesn't make sense and then turn that into a cohesive narrative and characters on my own.

 

Perhaps I've just come to hate this show more than I've hated any show that I've ever watched before.

 

11 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

With those answers, I'm much more willing to watch the show and at minimum give it this first season before deciding to continue supporting it.

Rafe also said in multiple interviews that Bela was very important and had to be done right. Where are the scenes from the book that gave her focus? Where is she now?

 

Rafe also spoke of how much effort they put into props, then they made Rand's sword the most generic looking Katana possible that is missing a key part of its design.

 

Rafe will say whatever he needs to say to keep book fans on his side until he has enough new fans from the show that he can abandon the book fans.

 

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

How much experience does she have with male channelers?

None apparently, chasing after the DR for 20 years and apparently this is the first time she's been faced with not being able to see the weaves created by a man channeling the One Power.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Jackdaw_Fool]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This idea that Logain covered his eyes, so that means he could see is silly.

Silly seems like a strong word in my opinion for this one, especially since I don't think a lot of the arguments along these lines hold water (for me.) Why can't a more reasonable explanation just be that he can't see the weaves, but Nynaeve cast Nynaeve's Super #Badass Brilliant Globe of Healing... It creates a brilliant globe of light that heals everyone within a certain radius. Kind of like the opposite of the swirling vortex of death Rand created in the stone that killed all the trollocs. Then Logain shields his eyes from that... To me it is a very difficult argument to make that he didn't see the brilliant light. I mean the scene is extremely visual (that's the medium of this telling!). Nynaeve's hair is even flying around in the air... Lots of visual stuff going on.

 

They clearly were so enamored of Logain shielding his eyes they showed him doing so at least three times. Here's a couple. Brilliant light, shadowing his face.

 

Are non book readers supposed to understand who can see what weaves, what they are seeing when weaves are shown on screen, etc.? I feel like I would be all sorts of confused with all these weaves flying around all the time and yet ordinary people aren't supposed to see them? I dunno, feel like that would be news to most.

 

There, now that I've tried to contribute something positive, I don't feel too guilty about saying I hate this whole change too for the reasons folks have stated previously. Just seems like yet another thing that reduces the comparative awesomeness of the DR (assuming it's still Rand.) What Nynaeve did here is just too cool/powerful at this stage of the story... When Rand starts to do things to showcase the power of the DR that are supposed to wow me I'm feeling like I'm going to have a meh reaction.

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Perhaps the combination of this episode ripping up so much of the book, ruining so many things, destroying so much lore and Nyaneve going supernova broke me.

 

Perhaps I'm just tired of being told that the show makes sense, I just need to combine the show lore with the book lore, throw out everything that doesn't make sense and then turn that into a cohesive narrative and characters on my own.

 

Perhaps I've just come to hate this show more than I've hated any show that I've ever watched before.

 

Rafe also said in multiple interviews that Bela was very important and had to be done right. Where are the scenes form the book that gave her focus? Where is she now?

 

Rafe also spoke of how much effort they put into props, then they made Rand's sword the most generic looking Katana possible that is missing a key part of it's design.

 

Rafe will say whatever he needs to say to keep book fans on his side until he has enough new fans from the show that he can abandon the book fans.

 

None apparently, chasing after the DR for 20 years and apparently this is the first time she's been faced with not being able to see the weaves created by a man channeling the One Power.

What is it exactly that makes you think she can see a man's weaves?

 

[MasterAblar]

Moiraine stated she cannot see the weaves of a male channeler. The same should hold true in reverse. Otherwise the balance between saidin and saidar, not to mention the general theme that saidar and saidin are completely different, is pretty much gone.

 

The logical explanation is that Logain saw the effect of Nyneave's weaves rather than the weaves themselves. It's not a particularly satisfying answer from the perspective of book readers because it's rather unclear and also healing weaves don't really give off light normally. But the point of the scene is to make viewers think Nyneave might actually be the Dragon Reborn, therefore you give it a little leeway and accept the meh explanation that it was just the effect the weaves gave off.

 

Honestly, think of the massive repercussions on the story if men can see women's weaves. 

[AusLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What is it exactly that makes you think she can see a man's weaves?

She can't, she talks about it with the other Aes Sedai as if this is something unusual that she isn't used to, like she hasn't actually been around men who can channel, which would be strange from someone who's been chasing after the DR but apparently Moiraine kept her distance from men who could channel.

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Perhaps.....

 

Rafe also said in multiple interviews that Bela was very important and had to be done right. Where are the scenes form the book that gave her focus? Where is she now?

 

Rafe also spoke of how much effort they put into props, then they made Rand's sword the most generic looking Katana possible that is missing a key part of it's design.

 

Rafe will say whatever he needs to say to keep book fans on his side until he has enough new fans from the show that he can abandon the book fans.

 

None apparently, chasing after the DR for 20 years and apparently this is the first time she's been faced with not being able to see the weaves created by a man channeling the One Power.

Then perhaps this forum isn't for you?  Not as any type of dismissal or anything, but if you're not willing to discuss in good faith and not willing to be civil, I'm not sure why you're here, again, genuinely confused.

Rafe said Bela being right was important.  We've seen her, we've seen her, she doesn't start having weird omnipresence til later.  The only thing we've missed is Rand healing her.  

Rafe said the props were important.  I just relooked at the blade in question.  Looks like a solid heron mark sword to me.  You're missing something here, in TGH when Lan compares the blades.  The heron is the only exceptional thing.  If it bothers you that it's not on the hilt, I'm sorry.  It also could be on the hilt under the wrappings.  We don't know yet.

The idea that Rafe is secretly plotting to do away with us is ludicrous.

And yeah, after 20 years of chasing the Dragon Reborn Moraine never fought a Male Channeler.  What's your point?

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

She can't, she talks about it with the other Aes Sedai as if this is something unusual that she isn't used to, like she hasn't actually been around men who can channel, which would be strange from someone who's been chasing after the DR but apparently Moiraine kept her distance from men who could channel.

 

I mean the line doesn't make sense anyway because Logain wouldn't have been weaving in the first place since he's blocked.

 

The point of the line was to let viewers know that women cannot see men's weaves. I don't think it was very well thought out but it is what it is.

[AusLeviathan]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

not to mention the general theme that saidar and saidin are completely different, is pretty much gone

Ask yourself this question. At the moment, besides men going crazy, what differences has the show shown you between Saidar and Saidin?

 

That's going to be the only difference in the show between the two of them. It's one of the things I'm going to be waiting for the reaction from the fan base with popcorn in hand.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[flinn]

 If Nynaeve is this powerful, does that mean Rand is going to be that much more powerful than Nynaeve?

 

 I always thought Logain was just a few steps behind Rand in strength, but he isnt even a shadow in comparison to Nynaeve and if Rand is that much stronger than Nynaeve, then Rand is going to be moving mountains around.

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, flinn said:

 If Nynaeve is this powerful, does that mean Rand is going to be that much more powerful than Nynaeve?

 

 I always thought Logain was just a few steps behind Rand in strength, but he isnt even a shadow in comparison to Nynaeve and if Rand is that much stronger than Nynaeve, then Rand is going to be moving mountains around.

Again, are we seeing Nynaeve as purely stronger than Logain or a Stronger Healer than Logain?

How many, strength or no strength, could simultaneously knit back together 12+ people without tapping their own strength or draining them while using all 5 powers instead of just water/air/spirit?

This argument is like:
 

Spoiler

Seeing Androl opening huge gateways and jumping to the conclusion that he's amazingly powerful

 

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

She can't, she talks about it with the other Aes Sedai as if this is something unusual that she isn't used to, like she hasn't actually been around men who can channel, which would be strange from someone who's been chasing after the DR but apparently Moiraine kept her distance from men who could channel.

Why is that weird? She's chasing particular information from the prophecy, not men who can channel in general. And there's nothing bizarre about Logain being the most powerful channeler she's ever encountered.

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Ask yourself this question. At the moment, besides men going crazy, what differences has the show shown you between Saidar and Saidin?

 

That's going to be the only difference in the show, it's one of the things I'm going to be waiting for the reaction with popcorn in hand.

 

Well seeing as Logain has been the only male channeler so far, what reason has there been to discuss it? The only difference we knew of at this point in the books was that: saidin was tainted and drove men made, and men were strong in fire and earth, while women were strong in water and air (generally speaking). Correct me if I'm missing anything. At this point the show has at least made it explicit that women cannot see men's weaves.

 

Incidentally in the extras saidar and saidin are explicitly mentioned as being completely different. I know that's just the extras and its vague, but your assumption that they're doing away with the difference between saidin and saidar are pretty much baseless at this point

[MasterAblar]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

This argument is like:
 

  Hide contents

Seeing Androl opening huge gateways and jumping to the conclusion that he's amazingly powerful

 

Yes, precisely.

 

Nyneave did something crazy impressive, and Logain is impressed. Well damn now we must all surely assume Logain is a weakling and Nyneave rules all.

 

(By the way Nyneave is only a few rungs from the top of the female ladder, and did some pretty crazy stuff in the books, so, yeah, she's not some pushover).

[AusLeviathan]

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The idea that Rafe is secretly plotting to do away with us is ludicrous.

I mean, he made a show that changes virtually everything about the series and is basically just vaguely related to WOT for the most part, that's a big enough sign of it to me.

 

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Then perhaps this forum isn't for you?  Not as any type of dismissal or anything, but if you're not willing to discuss in good faith and not willing to be civil, I'm not sure why you're here, again, genuinely confused.

A WOT forum isn't a place for a WOT book fan, remarkable. Of course given how the series has ripped up the books perhaps that's correct.

 

I'm here because I refuse to abandon this ship even if it hit the iceberg before it left the harbor. I'll be here at least up until the series is cancelled, which given how Amazon treats its shows will probably be in season four.

 

14 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Incidentally in the extras saidar and saidin are explicitly mentioned as being completely different. I know that's just the extras and its vague, but your assumption that they're doing away with the difference between saidin and saidar are pretty much baseless at this point

We'll see, they couldn't even keep the whole can't see the other genders weaves straight for a single episode so don't know how they could keep other differences straight.

 

I can guarantee the whole men's potential being stronger than women part is definitively gone though, they kind of had to in order to make the whole DR can be a women thing and souls without gender thing work.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[notpropaganda73]

I'm gonna just move the discussion on a bit - does anyone think with Logain's larger role early on in the show, will Rand zone in on him as a potential teacher early? Will we get Asmodean and the "whodunnit" in the show? It was a huge deal for book readers at the time but I must admit it wasn't something that was all that interesting to me, outside of Rand losing his teacher. If Logain is more experienced/has been "taught" (whether by his madness/past lives/Forsaken whisperers), could he be a good candidate to teach Rand some things? 

 

Although my memory is hazy, didn't Rand avoid the Black Tower/Logain for a long time. I can't remember his reasoning. 

 

Personally, I always wanted more of Logain in the books and I loved the actors' portrayal in this episode, so the more we get of him the better imo. 

[MasterAblar]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

We'll see, they couldn't even keep the whole can't see the other genders weaves straight for a single episode so don't know how they could keep other differences straight.

 

 

You think they didn't keep it. Again the execution may have not been the best (and honestly that's mainly for readers), but nowhere does the show say men can see women's weaves.

 

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

I can guarantee the whole men's potential being stronger than women part is definitively gone though, they kind of had to in order to make the whole DR can be a women thing and souls without gender things work.

 

 

Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but if they do there's gonna be a bit of a serious issue with women being able to link and not men.

 

I don't see what it has to do with changing the souls though. What do you mean by that?

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

I mean, he made a show that changes virtually everything about the series and is basically just vaguely related to WOT for the most part, that's a big enough sign of it to me.

 

I honestly don't understand this POV. Sorry if that comes across as rude. I know there are some that dislike the show and are completely out on it, that's fine. But I just don't think this statement is true. The Wheel of Time is about 5 young folks from Emond's Field thrust into the wider world where they will be the most important players in a battle against dark forces. The show is following that trajectory.

[WhiteVeils]

The ongoing discussions being had, reading the reviews and stuff, it makes me want to cry.  Not because some people dislike the show, but because how they are impacted and reinforced, and are justifying it, and it feels like it's for some agenda.  It's heartbreaking to me.

It's showing up in all sorts of places.  For example, in this episode with this thing where Logain supposedly sees weaves.  We /know/ from episode 1 that men can't see women's weaves, that's been entirely consistent. the male channeler at the beginning can't see Liandrin's weaves.  So when  Logain reacts here, that Nynaeve is like a blazing sun, the assumption should be kind...at least generous enough to believe the showrunner and advisors, who've read the books more times than any of us, know this, and it's most likely that Logain can't see the weaves, but sees something else...Nynaeve as Taveran, or physical light she created (Moiraine generated a burst of raw light as an attack against the trollocs in the first episode), or just because he himself was hit with a burst, either of debris from Nynaeve, or, most likely in my view, hit by a burst of healing that mended all his own little cuts and bruises and headaches from being hauled around in a cage for that long.  Of course he can recognize those.

But folks are assuming that it's some big huge change that will destroy everything.  But it doesn't destroy anything.  It doesn't even change thoughts. 

 

It feels like the whole point is to gin up controversy and make people think that it's being some super feminist thing, just because it does have a woman being badass.  Firing up these points of controversy...especially the specific ones being fired on...isn't painting people who dislike the show as passionate purists.  They're making themselves look like they cannot handle, for just a few minutes, the very concept of a woman being in some way equal to a man.  It makes me feel so awful for them.  I'm sure most who don't like the show don't feel that way, but when you boil down the complaints that gain traction they're all about 'wokeness'.

Things like the women are MCing ceremonies at Beltine, there's no men's council.  Even though there's every possibility there is a men's council...we just didn't see it.  We don't see women's stuff going on in 99% of movies and shows.  Here it just shows it the other way around.

<sigh>  I know this won't make a difference. I just wish some could see how bad they are looking.

 

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

will Rand zone in on him as a potential teacher early

Depends upon what you mean as "early." Seems like there are a lot of steps before that. Will he be taken to Tar Valon? When will Nyn discover how to heal him? When will the Black Tower be established? Or will these items be in the series at all? Fingers x-ed.