tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Harad the White]

12 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I’m open to the possibility, but not sure why Lanfear would give a damn about Logain. And she should still be locked up damnit! 

Chaos, if nothing else. "He is beneath you. Kill him," she says. "You would like that," responds Logain. "You've gone mad already," says the King. The fact that the King says "mad" tells me it's not.

[Pandemonium]

Don't think it is the forsaken talking to logain.  Its pretty well established with Rand that he could hear voices that taught him things.  aka Lews Therin.  More likely these mat be some of Logains past lives

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

More likely these mat be some of Logains past lives

The female shadow, "He will betray you like your parents." The male shadow, "Like your sister." Past lives?

 

And why would Logain have past lives? Is he the DR?

Edited November 27, 2021 by Harad the White
can't type

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The female shadow, "He will betray you like your parents." The male shadow, "Like your sister." Past lives?

 

And why would Logain have past lives? Is he the DR?

 

Everyone has past lives. Though I'm skeptical about Logain remembering his.

[JenniferL]

Everyone has past lives in the Wheel of Time. 

[Mnemosyne]

13 hours ago, dorotea said:

2. Pretty lame Tinkers : the visuals are all the flower children of the 60 ties minus the music, which is horrible, colors are drab, dancing is asexual and  lame, it feels like the flower children meet Tolstoy crossed with Amish.

 

I have mixed feelings about the Tinkers. I would have totally agreed with you after episode 3 but for some reason I felt they came across a bit better in episode 4. Maybe because I loved Ila's dialogue. The colours seemed brighter, too. (I saw someone else made that comment as well).

 

I agree they're leaning too heavily towards the hippie vibe with the dreadlocks, it made them too cliché.

 

They probably introduced the Amish thing so that their children are portrayed as having more of a "choice" rather than "forcing" them into the Way of the Leaf. Perhaps they are suggesting that these are the same people as the Amish, in a later turning of the Wheel? But I feel they deserve to be their own thing.

 

Agree that the dancing was disappointingly asexual, I think they wanted to tone down the "women dance for the men" aspect, but they could have just made EVERYONE dance a little bit sexily... ?

[flinn]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

This is consistent with the books. Cadsuane and Semirhage both comment that men who can channel eventually start hearing voices. It is unknown whether or not these voices are past lives, like Rand and Lews Therin, but it’s not unreasonable that the show might decide that it is and that Logain is hearing whatever his past lives are. 

 Well, it is consistent with the books that SOME people hear voices, but not all hear voices. The madness manifests in different ways in the book, but I am perfectly ok with simplifying it to just all hearing voices. The difference SHOULD be, that the voices others hear are not "real". Whereas, with the DR, he actually hears a real voice.

 

 If it turns out that every male channeler hears real voices from their past lives.. it will be another huge strike against the show IMO.

Edited November 27, 2021 by flinn

[JenniferL]

The lack of Tiganza was disappointing. Maybe next week…

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Everyone has past lives. Though I'm skeptical about Logain remembering his.

Which is why all through the Book all the characters are talking to their past lives. Must get very messy in big convos.

[JenniferL]

No, only male channelers going mad remember their past lives. They start remembering them and disassociate. They start thinking the memories are another person talking to them. This is fairly explicit in the books. 

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, flinn said:

The difference SHOULD be, that the voices others hear are not "real". Whereas, with the DR, he actually hears a real voice.

Listen to the conversation between Logain, King of Ghealdan, and the two shadows. Is Logain mad? He is perfectly rational and he resists the advice of the shadows to murder the King. 

[flinn]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Listen to the conversation between Logain, King of Ghealdan, and the two shadows. Is Logain mad? He is perfectly rational and he resists the advice of the shadows to murder the King. 

 The fact that he is "hearing" voices means he is most assuredly mad.

[Mnemosyne]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

You were clear. As caddysedai also noted, there is a slight possibility that the Gyptians in HDM, written 11 years after WoT, were a "homage" to the Tinkers in WoT. Why should WoT feel constrained to portray it's characters because of that?

 

All these different portrayals are imitating the Roma, not each other. As for the Tinkers specifically, well the Roma are literally called "Travellers" in the UK. One could argue whether it's cultural appropriation or homage.

[Harad the White]

Just now, flinn said:

The fact that he is "hearing" voices means he is most assuredly mad.

The fact that the voices are real means he is not. 

[Mnemosyne]

49 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Come over to the dark side. Elusha Salid = Lanfear.

 

I'm at least on board with the Forsaken theory. Whether it's Lanfear or not, we shall see! Could be a cool way to introduce her.

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The fact that the voices are real means he is not. 

 

We don't know what the voices are just yet.

[Harad the White]

Just now, Agitel said:

 

We don't know what the voices are just yet.

A voice told me they are real.

[TheDreadReader]

5 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

They probably introduced the Amish thing so that their children are portrayed as having more of a "choice" rather than "forcing" them into the Way of the Leaf. Perhaps they are suggesting that these are the same people as the Amish, in a later turning of the Wheel? But I feel they deserve to be their own thing.

 

 

Some of how they showed the Tinkers seem to be laying the groundwork for stuff we see later in TSR.  I saw a non-reader reaction video on youtube where she got pretty close to that development just from this episode.

 

I thought the rumspringa stuff was an interesting touch.  The kind of addition that makes sense in groups like that (especially if you consider that they don't look like a group with distinctive coloring).  They lose some members but then convert others.   That makes for a more diverse group over time.   And, felt like good worldbuilding to me.   

 

It does break the Amish comparison those because some while Amish communities will accept converts it is a relatively rare thing. 

 

 

 

[ManetherenTaveren]

14 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

Agree that the dancing was disappointingly asexual, I think they wanted to tone down the "women dance for the men" aspect, but they could have just made EVERYONE dance a little bit sexily.

Graendal hasn't broken free yet, so upping the ante of the dance would have been premature and confusing. ? Actually, I thought they represented the dance well. Egwene seemed to be having a good time with Aram.

[Harad the White]

Just now, ManetherenTaveren said:

Graendal hasn't broken free yet

Here's another theory, by Ann Elk. The Forsaken who haven't broken free yet are shadows, like the ones whispering in Logain's ear. They will incarnate when they break free. This puts the "old man" running with "young man in a different category, also not a figment, but a strong male channeler.

[ManetherenTaveren]

9 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

Some of how they showed the Tinkers seem to be laying the groundwork for stuff we see later in TSR.  I saw a non-reader reaction video on youtube where she got pretty close to that development just from this episode.

I cannot wait for that eye-opening reveal. I hope the adaptation's caretakers accept that challenge with vigor! 

[ManetherenTaveren]

28 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Here's another theory, by Ann Elk. The Forsaken who haven't broken free yet are shadows, like the ones whispering in Logain's ear. They will incarnate when they break free. This puts the "old man" running with "young man in a different category, also not a figment, but a strong male channeler.

I see where you're going with this. Makes sense if the Forsaken occupy (and spy with) tel'aran'rhiod before they are completely free from "purgatory." The show seems to push the "who is it?" angle every chance it gets. The Forsaken would probably take advantage of the known madness fact as well by whispering in any male channeler's inner ear. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by ManetherenTaveren

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

The Forsaken would probably take advantage of the known madness fact as well by whispering in a channeler's ear. 

Yes! And we know that Logain is not evil, just mistaken. He resists the evil in the whispering pine voices.

[Mnemosyne]

30 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Here's another theory, by Ann Elk. The Forsaken who haven't broken free yet are shadows, like the ones whispering in Logain's ear.

 

Ooooohhh especially as Moiraine made the earlier comment that the Dark One "is already whispering in our ears." Yes, I think this is a likely theory.

[JenniferL]

It is a very cool theory and definitely a change from the books that I’d support.