How is it come that one can't criticize Sanderson's books, but one can bad-mouth Jordan's?

[eva.reves]

On every Wheel ot Time boards you can say abominable things about Jordan and his books, but you try to say even a mild criticism about Sanderson, your comment gets deleted, or downvoted, or you get banned, which I find ridiculous.

Jordan created WOT, and his books and writings vastly superior to anything written by Sanderson, but yet according these forums Jordan was a pathetic loser, who wrote bad and boring books, and basically only Sanderson's books are worth to read.

I'd really like to get an explanation for this inexplicable phenomena.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, eva.reves said:

On every Wheel ot Time boards you can say abominable things about Jordan and his books, but you try to say even a mild criticism about Sanderson, your comment gets deleted, or downvoted, or you get banned, which I find ridiculous.

You don't? There's lots of negative posts about Sandersons work across the net, reddit, and other fan forums.

 

4 hours ago, eva.reves said:

I'd really like to get an explanation for this inexplicable phenomena.

Maybe you're getting banned from those places not because of what you're saying, but how you're saying it? Trolling? Shit Posting? 

 

Making this your first post on DM doesn't help your credibility in the matter, as it appear to make you look like you're only here only to stir the pot by shit talking.

[wotfan4472]

I am not to sure. Probably as Sinister just explained.

Edited May 20, 2021 by wotfan4472

[eva.reves]

I'm not stirring anything. My first post can't be honest?

 

Since the announcing of the TV Show, one can't read anything else on Facebook, Reddit and in similar spaces that the writers of the Show have to re-write the whole storylines, the characters, because Jordan's books are awful. TEOTW is not important at all (nothing happens in the whole book), in TGH (only the battle is important) and similar posts. Not one or two posts but tons of them. There's no need of faithfulness to the books at all. And there are more and more posts about totally skipping half the series, because what Jordan wrote is rubbish, but fully filming Sanderdon's book goes without saying, because he's a master storyteller who fixed WOT. (And there's a 'campaign' to the new readers, especially on Reddit, that new readers should skip even more than half of the series: I saw many suggestion that after TGH/TDR one should read summaries then continue the reading with Sanderson's books, because Jordan's books have nothing just boredom, descriptions, more boredom, more descriptions.)

 

You can try to point out that for example in TEOTW the connection between Rand and Mat is very important, and in 5 minutes you are downvoted to the abyss, and an hour later your post is gone.

 

But back to the books: every time when you trying to point out Sanderson's errors (there are thousands of them), or trying to point out Jordan's much better prose, structure, handling of characters and similar things with many examples, they are deleted in minutes.
 

I think this attitude and propaganda gives false information to the new readers, and they are feed with misinformation right from the start. When they see posts (upvoted to sky) many new reader will believe thes false claims. And seeing recent events (a report published by the Center for Countering Digital Hate and Anti-Vax Watch suggest that approximately two-thirds of COVID-19 misinformation originates from 12 people), you don't need many people just a few supermoderators and a few aides to spread false thoughts.
 

I don't say that Jordan's books are flawless, they are not, far from it, but seeing all the time the Jordan-scolding and the Sanderson-glorification is really unbearable.

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

1 hour ago, eva.reves said:

I'm not stirring anything. My first post can't be honest?

 

Since the announcing of the TV Show, one can't read anything else on Facebook, Reddit and in similar spaces that the writers of the Show have to re-write the whole storylines, the characters, because Jordan's books are awful. TEOTW is not important at all (nothing happens in the whole book), in TGH (only the battle is important) and similar posts. Not one or two posts but tons of them. There's no need of faithfulness to the books at all. And there are more and more posts about totally skipping half the series, because what Jordan wrote is rubbish, but fully filming Sanderdon's book goes without saying, because he's a master storyteller who fixed WOT. (And there's a 'campaign' to the new readers, especially on Reddit, that new readers should skip even more than half of the series: I saw many suggestion that after TGH/TDR one should read summaries then continue the reading with Sanderson's books, because Jordan's books have nothing just boredom, descriptions, more boredom, more descriptions.)

 

You can try to point out that for example in TEOTW the connection between Rand and Mat is very important, and in 5 minutes you are downvoted to the abyss, and an hour later your post is gone.

 

But back to the books: every time when you trying to point out Sanderson's errors (there are thousands of them), or trying to point out Jordan's much better prose, structure, handling of characters and similar things with many examples, they are deleted in minutes.
 

I think this attitude and propaganda gives false information to the new readers, and they are feed with misinformation right from the start. When they see posts (upvoted to sky) many new reader will believe thes false claims. And seeing recent events (a report published by the Center for Countering Digital Hate and Anti-Vax Watch suggest that approximately two-thirds of COVID-19 misinformation originates from 12 people), you don't need many people just a few supermoderators and a few aides to spread false thoughts.
 

I don't say that Jordan's books are flawless, they are not, far from it, but seeing all the time the Jordan-scolding and the Sanderson-glorification is really unbearable.

I see some Sanderson scolding. People like to gripe about Mat. But you are right, I see far more Jordan scolding. This may be because Jordan wrote a lot of the series, so there is more content to complain about, or it may be because Sanderson is altogether more famous because of Mistborn and the Stormlight Archive. 

[Thrasymachus]

Complaining here about a reddit phenomenon?  Interesting.  I don't think Dragonmount mods here can do anything about the subreddit.  And that subreddit is itself enormously more active than these boards, and as such, moderated much less well.

 

But in any event, the easiest rejoinder to your "observations" is that they are anecdotal, uncontrolled and appear to suffer from confirmation bias.  

 

In general, however, Sanderson is treated generously among the fandom for a few reasons.  Most importantly, he completed the series.  That can't be understated.  And he did it with a great deal of respect for Jordan and what he had already established, relying on RJ's notes and Maria's help with research and prior knowledge, and Harriet's editing.  While he did get things wrong, for the most part he acknowledged what he got wrong and worked to fix it through the subsequent volumes.  Throughout the process of writing the ending, and even to today, he's displayed a great deal of humility and respect for the franchise and the fans.  And that earns him a good deal of respect in return.

 

Jordan's works had been criticized for years prior to his death and Sanderson's arrival as well.  Let there be no mistake, here, Jordan is the best American fantasy writer of all time, and makes a good play for being among the best anywhere of all time.  But nobody's perfect either.  His huge, sprawling epic started, well, sprawling.  Timelines got all out of whack.  Characters seemingly forget earlier development.  And uninteresting things that Jordan wasn't as good at writing about began to dominate the story, like Aes Sedai and Andoran politics.  

 

As for the TV show commentary, a lot of people don't seem to understand how adaptations, particularly adaptations that work well, actually work.  I'm aware of no successful adaptation of any work of literature that didn't significantly streamline the plot and prune characters.  And it's simply not realistic to plan on a 14-season TV series.  I am highly pessimistic about the show myself, but not because they will be pruning and adapting the story.  That's necessary.  It's what they prune and how they adapt that determines whether it will be good, or sufficiently honor the source material. 

 

For example, rumor has it that they'll be cutting the Caemlyn palace scenes between Rand and Elayne and Rand and Elaida.  I don't like the idea of cutting that.  That scene with Elaida is thematically too important to cut, and it is important that Basel Gil, who we know has already been cast, have his inn at Caemlyn, for future story arcs.  Rafe has said that Logain will have an expanded role, particularly in the first season, and that the show will write Moiraine to be the main character of the first season.  I don't know how that will turn out, so I'm indifferent to it.  It could be good, it could be bad.  It's also been said that a lot of locations visited while traveling will be cut out.  And that's fine, as long as the cuts are done well, because it's just not realistic for TV show to build that many different sets.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, eva.reves said:

I'm not stirring anything. My first post can't be honest?

Certainly appears that way when you completely skip this forum.

https://dragonmount.com/forums/forum/72-introduce-yourself/

 

As for the rest of that post, it's a rant about Facebook and Reddit.

*looks around*

This isn't Reddit or Facebook. Why bring that drama here?

[muddasssir]

All those "smart people " who try to portray Sanderson as a better writer than Jordan. Well they are too smart for their own good. Sanderson is not a patch on the literary ability of Jordan. He didn't just spoiled Mat. He destroyed Perrin too. He just basically repeated all the training that perrin had done in Telarahanroid. He just wrote some very pathetic parts. Like in that final book the parts that Jordan wrote and ones that Sanderson wrote were significantly different and Sanderson just rode the coat tail of jordan to stardom. We had a very long discussion back in day with a post titled "Greed". Please if you have go back and read it. Sanderson's lameness was pretty much predicted in that

 

[Elder_Haman]

Or, it could just be that people have their own subjective opinions. 

[eva.reves]

And now there are hundreds (or even thousands) posts about the Color-shifting cloaks: suddenly everybody has a revelation that Color-shifting cloaks are stupid and pointless, and  they never made sense, and similar statements.

 

I have never heard or read anything bad about the Warders' cloaks on the boards since 1998, but now I know that I was wrong in the whole time.

It looks like Jordan's books have nothing else in them only senseless and bad things.

[SinisterDeath]

10 minutes ago, eva.reves said:

And now there are hundreds (or even thousands) posts about the Color-shifting cloaks: suddenly everybody has a revelation that Color-shifting cloaks are stupid and pointless, and  they never made sense, and similar statements.

 

I have never heard or read anything bad about the Warders' cloaks on the boards since 1998, but now I know that I was wrong in the whole time.

It looks like Jordan's books have nothing else in them only senseless and bad things.

Not at all, and it's amazing that you're speaking as a voice of authority of what hundreds (or thousands) are saying on other sites and bringing it here to vent. (You could just write your rants in a Journal you know.)

Most things I've read (anecdotal, just like what you've read) are disappointment from fans that they aren't going to have the cloaks, and understanding over budget constraints. Never heard anyone bad mouth Jordan's books regarding the cloaks either.

Perhaps it's time you to lay off social media, as all it's doing is triggering your rage, and stop bringing that baggage here?

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, eva.reves said:

suddenly everybody has a revelation that Color-shifting cloaks are stupid and pointless, and  they never made sense, and similar statements.

Where are these statements? I keep pretty close track of discussions on most of the major forums. I haven't seen very many comments at all, much less "thousands" of them.

 

I have heard some people lamenting that the cloaks won't be part of the show. Some people saying (rightly IMO) that its an understandable change given the expense and degree of difficulty. 

 

 

[Cheyboygan]

I certainly haven't seen any trend toward considering Sanderson the superior writer on THIS forum.  There are somethings Sanderson does better than Jordan, pacing for instance.  Overall I'd say Jordan is the better writer by a fair margin though.  That said, Sanderson's writing may translate better to TV.  Not that it matters, because the show will have to be a tremendous success to last long enough to get to Sanderson's contributions.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Cheyboygan said:

I certainly haven't seen any trend toward considering Sanderson the superior writer on THIS forum.  There are somethings Sanderson does better than Jordan, pacing for instance.  Overall I'd say Jordan is the better writer by a fair margin though.  That said, Sanderson's writing may translate better to TV.  Not that it matters, because the show will have to be a tremendous success to last long enough to get to Sanderson's contributions.

On this forum in particular, I'd go as far as to saying that the majority of the criticism expressed here goes toward Sanderson: his handling of Mat, Perrin's arc, the timeline of the last battle, Androl's existence. All of these things are discussed here with some regularity. 

 

[DojoToad]

On 5/21/2021 at 12:48 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Not at all, and it's amazing that you're speaking as a voice of authority of what hundreds (or thousands) are saying on other sites and bringing it here to vent. (You could just write your rants in a Journal you know.)

Most things I've read (anecdotal, just like what you've read) are disappointment from fans that they aren't going to have the cloaks, and understanding over budget constraints. Never heard anyone bad mouth Jordan's books regarding the cloaks either.

Perhaps it's time you to lay off social media, as all it's doing is triggering your rage, and stop bringing that baggage here?

wondering if I was the only one to notice this person just likes to feed the drama beast...  I do my share of complaining, but based of my own thoughts and opinions - not what “hundreds/thousands” of other people are supposedly talking about. 
 

Takes all kinds I guess. 

[Rhettles]

I'm a long time WOT fan I've been reading this series since the 90's.   I was appalled at Sanderson's take on the series and I'm completely nonplussed by Sanderson's lowbrow writing style.  

I was so unimpressed by his writing that I barely consider Sanderson's WOT books as canon.  In my mind Sanderson's books are basically just fan fiction.  But it is what it is since, RJ died. 

 I wouldn't stress about what is said in social media about Jordan though. RJ's genius speaks for itself, and any educated reader worth their salt can see that clearly in the books.  

People saying Sanderson saved the WoT books is like saying Peter Jackson saved Tolkien's LOTR.  It's simply untrue and plainly ridiculous. 

But remember that nothing anybody says in a forum can take away from your own experience that you had when reading the books.   You can go back and read Jordan's words for yourself again anytime you like, and appreciate them in your own way.  

I feel privileged that i discovered the Wheel of Time when I did.   I had over a decade of reading, rereading, speculating, theorising and anticipating for each new book as they were published that allowed me to appreciate the series in a way new readers today can't know.  It's truly their loss. 

 

[Sabio]

If you think Sanderson can't be criticized then you haven't read posts on the forum.  People seem to forget RJ's last few books are generally regarded as the worst in the series.  I think for what Sanderson was asked to do he did a pretty good job,  Just imagine being asked to finish one of the best fantasy series out there.  People expected Brandon to write like Jordan and he doesn't.  He did some things better IMO and did some things worse like writing for Mat (Brandon even admits he didn't get Mat right).  But I think Bradon did as good of job as any writer could have done trying to finish a beloved series.

 

Also seems reasonable the cloaks didn't make the cut (like ageless faces) on the series simply because of the difficulty of trying to CGI them.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sabio

[ArrylT]

I just talked to Bela - and well you see because Sanderson kept Bela alive throughout the Last Battle Bela (as Creator) has outlawed negative Sanderson talk as a quid pro quo.

[F Horn of Valere]

4 hours ago, ArrylT said:

I just talked to Bela - and well you see because Sanderson kept Bela alive throughout the Last Battle Bela (as Creator) has outlawed negative Sanderson talk as a quid pro quo.

worth noting Sanderson killed her. Alive in the companion, but not due to Sanderson. There goes his deal for negative talk?

[ArrylT]

5 minutes ago, F Horn of Valere said:

worth noting Sanderson killed her. Alive in the companion, but not due to Sanderson. There goes his deal for negative talk?

 

Ah my bad.   I havent read AMofL in a couple of years but I always have the companion book close by.  

 

But I guess that works for the Bela = Creator, since she could not be written off.  

 

[F Horn of Valere]

16 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Ah my bad.   I havent read AMofL in a couple of years but I always have the companion book close by.  

 

But I guess that works for the Bela = Creator, since she could not be written off.  

 

Only on my mind because I read it a couple hours ago!

[Finnssss22]

Wow I'm late to this thread.

Anywho...the reason so much of the books had to be re-written for TV is extremely simple and it's certainly not because RJ was a bad writer or the books were written badly.

The books are PoV/internal thought based that delivers the vast majority of its information that way.

Now you're in a visual medium and you need a different delivery system for that information.

 

Think about it for a second. Entire pages of description from the books might take all of a few seconds to convey on screen. Entire pages of internal thoughts have to be boiled down to an actor's body language, facial reactions and focused camera work that once again takes place in mere seconds.

Dialogue on the other hand...a mere paragraph of dialogue in the books can take 20-30 seconds to get out naturally on screen.

[Scarloc99]

So personally Sanderson 3 books for WOT are the only books of his I can read. I was always impressed that he seemed to change his writing style enough to match RJ a bit. His own books are the only books I have not been able to finish. Mistborn in particular I personally couldn’t stand. It might be his writing feels targeted at young adults or just less mature.
 

So personally I don’t slate them because I think he did a good enough job at finishing the story and pulling all the story threads together apart from one. 
 

Fain and Matt that was the biggest anticlimax I have ever experienced before n any medium except for maybe the death of the night king in GOT.