One big change...?

[Borderlander]

As a longtime fan of the books, I am beyond excited for this show. Love the casting; I think Rafe, for the most part, says all the right things; locations look great; budget is encouraging. Knowing it is an *adaptation*, I am prepared for and willing to embrace necessary changes, and even some unnecessary ones. We can't have everything we want! The only thing that tamps down my enthusiasm is this lingering doubt regarding what Brandon Sanderson may have been referring to when he bluntly said that the show contains at least one big change that he, for one, was not too thrilled about. (I forget his exact words, but I think I am interpreting his claim fairly.) I have a lot of respect for Brandon as an author (his Writing Excuses podcast makes it quite clear he knows his craft inside and out) which makes me wonder all the more, what could he be referring to? And is it is necessarily a change to Book 1 / Season 1, or has he seen Rafe's outlines for future seasons, as well?

 

I know a lot of people have speculated about this; I am curious what all of your thoughts are, now that production is as far along as it is (and now that we know Min is alive and well), not only as to what the big, bad change may be, but how much it might impact your enjoyment of the final product?

 

The most likely theories I have come across (or made up) which I am merely speculating may have been *serious* enough to warrant Brandon's comments include:

 

- Adding a bunch of modern-day swearing. (I just have a hunch that Sanderson would find this distasteful, especially when Jordan explicitly chose not to write one, single modern day cuss in a multi-million-word series. That was so clearly a deliberate choice, I think this would really not sit well with the man who was tapped to finish the books for the one who first created them.)

 

- Changing the whole Eye of the World / Greenman / Forsaken / Tarwin's Gap showdown at the end. (Although, if I had to guess, I would think that if Rafe had well thought-out reasons to do this, that Brandon would not have made such a strong comment, even if he disagreed with Rafe's exact rationale.)

 

- Making Moiraine's and Thom's romance more 'telegraphed' from the beginning.

 

- Changing Min's gender identity dynamic.

 

- Cutting Gawyn altogether, or combining him with Galad. (I know a lot of people have posted on other forum boards about this, and whether or not it makes sense from a show-running standpoint, I can see Brandon, as an author himself who got to write both Gawyn's and Galad's final scenes, feel strongly that there was a relevant place for both to be included in the show.)

 

- Drastic changes to the World of Dreams. (If for no other reason than it may be difficult to incorporate such a nebulous realm on an 8-episode TV show, especially when, looking down the line, T'a'R plays such a major role in future books.)

 

Some theories I think would be less likely to have evinced such a strong reaction from Sanderson include:

 

- Cutting the Trakands from Season 1. 

 

- Beefing up Logain's backstory and overall presence in Season 1. (I can't imagine Sanderson being disappointed by this.)

 

- Nudity. (I don't know Sanderson's personal feeling on this topic, but it cannot be denied that there is a lot of implied nudity in the books. Although he may feel that shoehorning it into Season 1 just to catch some of that 'Game of Thrones' buzz would be distasteful.)

 

- Cutting 2nd tier characters, like Hurin, as some people in other posts have suggested. (Just doesn't strike me as major enough to elicit Brandon's comment.)

 

- Cutting the Voice of the Creator from the ending. (Who knows, just wondering!?)

 

 

So, any thoughts? I probably shouldn't dwell on this, but it is like someone going to a see a movie, coming out, and telling you the film was absolutely amazing... except for one key part. Kind of steals the spotlight, so to speak. 

[Thrasymachus]

We know that Rafe has said that he was most looking forward to filming the scenes for Tarwin's Gap, so that bit of it at least is unlikely to be radically changed.  Will the Eye of the World and the appearance there of the Green Man, Aginor and Balthamel remain similarly unchanged?  I dunno, possibly, possibly with some big changes, though.  Maybe they're clearing up some of the mystery surrounding the Eye for the audience.

 

To add to your list, it could be that they're cutting Baerlon, and introducing Min in Fal Dara.

 

This character Steve that's been announced as cast may be a "placeholder" name to keep some mystery about some of the characters, maybe it's really Ishamael?  But it could also be a legitimately new character.  If it's the latter, that might spur some friction.

 

We'll likely just have to wait and see, unless Brandon wants to be more forthcoming.  I imagine someone will eventually pin him down on that, likely after the first season drops and its reception is known.

[mistborn82]

Personally, I think any changes from the first three books, if not introducing new elements to existing stories will be cleanup because the first three books aren't exactly a seamless blend into the larger story. My guess is the big thing will be

a. Cutting the Green Man

b. dropping the romantic Min/Rand relationship

c. the polyamorous relationship between Avi, Elayne and Rand.

Given the presence of Steve, I regard dropping the Green Man unlikely. We already know about Avi and Elayne so my guess would be they drop the Min romance. You also need to change her character slightly so she's independent always and not just an appendage of Rand.

[Thrasymachus]

Unless they're radically changing the timeline, Aviendha doesn't even show up until the third book.  I'm sure they're writing Season 2 now, but I haven't heard that they've begun table-reads or any kind of filming or casting for that season yet.  And I doubt the first season is getting all that far into book 2, I doubt it's much further than Fain having stolen the Horn and Dagger, the Amryiln confronting Rand with his destiny as the Dragon Reborn, and everybody setting off, the boys to get their things back, and the girls to Tar Valon for training.  I very much doubt we'll be anywhere near Falme.  And Brandon's comments came pretty early in this process.  Whatever is rubbing him the wrong way, it's gotta be something already written and plotted out, which means it's likely something from the first book.

 

I reckon the biggest, most likely change from the first books is that they've cut Baerlon, which likely means they've cut Rand and Mat's encounter with the Whitecloaks there, and probably pushed off meeting Min until Fal Dara, given who they've cast as her.  I can see why cutting that might irritate a novelist, that sort of intermediate respite is a common trope of heroes journeys in novels.  And it's an important scene for Rand, as that's his first time suffering from channelling sickness.

 

But I think it could likely work out for the better anyway.  Save the revelation of the incredible destinies of the Emond's Field 5 for nearer to the climax of the season, and at the same time establish Min as a regular from the end of the first season on, instead of as a recurring character with a near season-long absence between appearances.  It would mean we get more Min, with better early characterization for her, and shifts her becoming an adjunct Wonder Girl via hanging with princess Elayne while Eggy and Nyn are travelling from Fal Dara to becoming and adjunct Wonder Girl via travelling with Eggy and Nyn.

[Elder_Haman]

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

As a longtime fan of the books, I am beyond excited for this show. Love the casting; I think Rafe, for the most part, says all the right things; locations look great; budget is encouraging. Knowing it is an *adaptation*, I am prepared for and willing to embrace necessary changes, and even some unnecessary ones. We can't have everything we want! The only thing that tamps down my enthusiasm is this lingering doubt regarding what Brandon Sanderson may have been referring to when he bluntly said that the show contains at least one big change that he, for one, was not too thrilled about. (I forget his exact words, but I think I am interpreting his claim fairly.) I have a lot of respect for Brandon as an author (his Writing Excuses podcast makes it quite clear he knows his craft inside and out) which makes me wonder all the more, what could he be referring to? And is it is necessarily a change to Book 1 / Season 1, or has he seen Rafe's outlines for future seasons, as well?

 

Sanderson's statements on the subject weren't quite as blunt as you suggest. Sanderson felt that the fandom would approve of most of the changes and that the second script was in "rougher shape" than the first. I think what you are referring to is Sanderson's comments that he "really liked most of [the changes]". 

 

I don't think it follows that he dislikes any of the changes, only that he's less happy with some than with others. 

 

As for specifically what changes, I'm betting the biggest will be no Trakands in season one. And I'm tending to agree with Thrasymachus that they will eliminate Baerlon, perhaps by putting the Whitecloaks in their path as an obstacle. I also think we will lose a great deal of Rand and Mat's adventures with Thom (which is a real shame).

[Elessar]

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

Knowing it is an *adaptation*, I am prepared for and willing to embrace necessary changes, and even some unnecessary ones. We can't have everything we want! The only thing that tamps down my enthusiasm is this lingering doubt regarding what Brandon Sanderson may have been referring to when he bluntly said that the show contains at least one big change that he, for one, was not too thrilled about. (I forget his exact words, but I think I am interpreting his claim fairly.) I have a lot of respect for Brandon as an author (his Writing Excuses podcast makes it quite clear he knows his craft inside and out) which makes me wonder all the more, what could he be referring to?

 

Very interesting subject matter you bring up, I have thought about this myself also since I have lived with the Wheel of Time for almost 30 years and wish the tv-adaptation to be done right. Being a fan of staying close to canon in the tv-series (but, like you say, understanding the need for some changes in a visual medium; I just hope the changes are necessary and minor on the whole personally) I too was somewhat concerned when I heard what you mention.

 

PS. I see another member writes that he believes Brandon was not 'as blunt' (at least not quoted that way) as you say about disliking one particular change, but my impression from what I have heard (having followed Wheel of Time podcasts and blogs for months on end) is as you say that there was one particular element which displeased him somewhat (he was not that happy about) and which could upset part of the fanbase (though he was very supportive of Rafe's vision overall). 

 

And on this basis I will share my reflections on this matter.

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

I know a lot of people have speculated about this; I am curious what all of your thoughts are, now that production is as far along as it is (and now that we know Min is alive and well), not only as to what the big, bad change may be, but how much it might impact your enjoyment of the final product?

 

The most likely theories I have come across (or made up) which I am merely speculating may have been *serious* enough to warrant Brandon's comments include:

 

- Adding a bunch of modern-day swearing. (I just have a hunch that Sanderson would find this distasteful, especially when Jordan explicitly chose not to write one, single modern day cuss in a multi-million-word series. That was so clearly a deliberate choice, I think this would really not sit well with the man who was tapped to finish the books for the one who first created them.)

 

I agree on this, I too think Brandon would not be too pleased (for the reasons you mention) with adding a bunch of modern-day swearing to the tv-series. However, I am somewhat doubtful that this is what Brandon had in mind with his comment, since I think doing this change would only irritate parts of the fan community (some of the purists) while others would not care (and newcomers to the tv-series would kinda expect some at least modern-day swearing in a tv-series like this I guess). 

 

(personally this is a change that would not bother me that much unless it goes too far into vulgarism)

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

- Changing the whole Eye of the World / Greenman / Forsaken / Tarwin's Gap showdown at the end. (Although, if I had to guess, I would think that if Rafe had well thought-out reasons to do this, that Brandon would not have made such a strong comment, even if he disagreed with Rafe's exact rationale.)

 

This is another possible change that Brandon could have been somewhat unhappy with as you mention. I too, however, wonder if he would have reacted strongly to a (possibly necessary) plot change. The fanbase would be split I think on issues like this (some wanting few changes, some being open to many changes) and most fans of the saga expect a number of changes. It does depend a bit on how the changes would play out though, how fan reaction would be. The greater the change, the greater the reason (hypothetically) for Brandon to react. It is one thing to change the order of things at the Eye of the World and Tarwin's Gap or make minor tweaks, quite another if say the two Forsaken at the Eye are dropped from the tv-adaptation and the whole Eye plot from the book is revised. All in all I am doubtful if this is what Brandon had in mind, but it does depend somewhat on how big a potential change we are talking about in this instance.

 

(personally I would be very displeased if a major change was done to the Eye plot and that at Tarwin's Gap, say removing the two Forsaken from the story + the Greenman, revising much)

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

- Making Moiraine's and Thom's romance more 'telegraphed' from the beginning.

 

This is another possible change as you mention. Purists might react at such a change (especially those who were not that keen on this romance to begin with, and/or hoped the whole romance might be skipped in the tv-adaptation) while pragmatist might not mind. I don't think it is such a big deal either way that Brandon would react strongly to it, so I don't think this is what he had in mind.

 

(personally such a change or addition would not bother me that much; I am one of those who thought it was nice/charming to see Moiraine find some happiness in her personal life after a lifetime of working for causes for the White Tower, it made her somewhat more 'human' in a way, but it would not have mattered that much to me if this romance had not happened in the books, and so I am relaxed as to how they depict this matter in the tv-series)

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

- Changing Min's gender identity dynamic.

 

Another possible change as you mention. I have seen others mention this too. I don't know how big a deal such a potential change might be for Brandon. It also depends on what is the change. If Min becomes a transperson in the tv-series, that would be a major departure from canon and also influence how one views Rand (if the two are in love like in the books). If she is depicted as bisexual, that might be a slightly smaller departure but still far from canon. If she no longer is in love with Rand in the tv-series, that would be another big change. I think if there is a major change with Min, that could easily be the 'one big change' Brandon is talking about. As for the fanbase, again I think it would be split between those who would be very displeased by any major changes in Min's gender identity / relationship with Rand, and those who would not mind (i.e. who see the tv adaptation more as a separate telling of the story and so are fine with a huge departure from canon)

 

(personally I am in the first category here, and would be very displeased with any major changes to Min's character in the tv-series; this goes for all our heroes/heroines from EF as well as Elayne and Aviendha; I want to see the characters with their traits from the books on the tv-screen.. 'smile')

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

- Cutting Gawyn altogether, or combining him with Galad. (I know a lot of people have posted on other forum boards about this, and whether or not it makes sense from a show-running standpoint, I can see Brandon, as an author himself who got to write both Gawyn's and Galad's final scenes, feel strongly that there was a relevant place for both to be included in the show.)

 

Another potential change as you mention. I agree with you, I too feel such a major change from the books might make Brandon very displeased, also seeing (as you say) that he himself got to write them both at the end of the story. This could be what he had in mind when he mentioned the 'one big change'. Here too I think the fanbase would be somewhat divided, some being fine with such a change, others thinking it's too drastic. Neither of these two characters seem to be overly loved by the fanbase in general is my impression, but I think also many of those who are not great fans of them would like to see them both in the tv-adaptation.

 

(personally I want, as mentioned, to stick as much to canon as possible when it comes to the main storyline, main characters and the main events in the books, and so I would be unhappy if they combined the two characters or dropped one or both from the story; they each serve a purpose in the story)

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

- Drastic changes to the World of Dreams. (If for no other reason than it may be difficult to incorporate such a nebulous realm on an 8-episode TV show, especially when, looking down the line, T'a'R plays such a major role in future books.)

 

Interesting point. I would very much understand if Brandon would react strongly to a major change with Tel'aran'rhiod, say removing it altogether from the tv-series or changing it in a major way. I do, however, highly doubt Rafe would make such a drastic change since the World of Dreams is, as you mention, an integral part of the Wheel of Time going forwards. So I don't think this is what he has in mind.

 

(personally I would be very displeased indeed if they removed the World of Dreams from the tv-adaptation, neither would I be happy if they changed this concept too much; I am excited to see how it does play out on the tv-screen)

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

Some theories I think would be less likely to have evinced such a strong reaction from Sanderson include:

 

- Cutting the Trakands from Season 1. 

 

- Beefing up Logain's backstory and overall presence in Season 1. (I can't imagine Sanderson being disappointed by this.)

 

- Nudity. (I don't know Sanderson's personal feeling on this topic, but it cannot be denied that there is a lot of implied nudity in the books. Although he may feel that shoehorning it into Season 1 just to catch some of that 'Game of Thrones' buzz would be distasteful.)

 

- Cutting 2nd tier characters, like Hurin, as some people in other posts have suggested. (Just doesn't strike me as major enough to elicit Brandon's comment.)

 

- Cutting the Voice of the Creator from the ending. (Who knows, just wondering!?)

 

I agree that these points above are also potential but less likely changes that would elicit such a comment from Brandon. Cutting the Trakands would upset part of the fanbase I think (say removing Caemlyn) while the more 'pragmatic' fans might not care that much. Beefing up Logain's backstory etc seems to be something most fans believe will happen and I can't either see this would upset Brandon (quite the opposite I would imagine). Nudity on screen: this might be divise among fans, but I agree with you, don't think this would be a major thing for Brandon (it will be interesting to see how far they do go with nudity on screen though, since as we know there is much nudity in the books but much of a non-sexual nature). I don't either think cutting 2nd tier characters would upset Brandon much either, he understands that this is necessary with the huge amount of characters in the books. I don't think potentially cutting the Voice would upset him that much either (will be interesting to see if they do keep it in the tv-adaptation; is important in that case that it does not become cheesy I think most would agree).

 

(personally I hope they keep the Trakands and Caemlyn in season 1, I like the idea of having more of Logain's backstory even if we don't have much of it in the books; I have no strong opinion on nudity in the tv-series but I feel natural nudity (f.ex. with the Aiel sweat tents etc) was an element in the books that could be included in the tv-series without going the 'all-out sexual route' of Game of Thrones). Cutting 2nd tier characters is the kind of change I am fine with in the tv-series, it will be necessary in many cases. As for the Voice, if done right I would like to keep it but it's not a big deal for me if it's removed)

 

18 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

So, any thoughts? I probably shouldn't dwell on this, but it is like someone going to a see a movie, coming out, and telling you the film was absolutely amazing... except for one key part. Kind of steals the spotlight, so to speak. 

 

I agree with you, you are not alone in your musings. We all want the best tv-adaptation we can get. For most fans a major change in the tv-series will not be a dealbreaker, but it sometimes depends on the change and one's personal opinions. I used to be of the opinion that it is preferrable to have read the books first and then watch a tv-adaptation (you know the story and can enjoy the visual presentation), but I have gradually moved to the opposite view, that it actually is better not to have read the books which the tv-series is based on, that way you can enjoy the tv-adaptation for what it is without bias or preconceptions (or high demands and sky-high expectations). Others may disagree but that has become my opinion. 

 

 

A couple theory-additions of my own:

 

- Reducing the number of Forsaken in the tv-adaptation

 

We touched upon the matter with the 2 Forsaken at the Eye, but say Rafe decided to opt for keeping just a few of the Forsaken in the tv-series (say 6 out of the 13), that I could easily see Brandon would react strongly to. As with the other matters discussed above, the fanbase would be split on this I think, some reacting strongly in major disappointment, others not caring that much since it is an adaptation. The number 13 does have a special meaning in the Wheel of Time though as we know, so cutting down on Forsaken, combining Forsaken characters or similar, would certainly be a major change. Will it happen? It might, for practical purposes (fewer actors needed, more focus on a smaller number of Forsaken) and storywise (some of the Forsaken are, as we know, less involved in the story/saga and, in some cases, get killed off quickly). It will be very interesting to see how this matter is handled in the tv-series.

 

(personally I very much hope they keep all 13 Forsaken in the tv-series, even should we not see them all acted out (but we are told they are there); 13 is as mentioned an important number in this universe and here I want the showrunners to stick to canon as to names, character traits etc)

 

 

- Not going for distinctive language traits for inhabitants from various parts of 'Randland'

 

Rafe might decide that it is too complicated and too much to expect from the actors that they all speak acccording to the region whence they come, and so lets them all (incl. f.ex. the Illianer characters) speak 'the New Tongue' generally. It would not surprise me if Brandon would react to this being an author himself and thereby very concious of language and nuance. At the same time he knows that with the multitude of nations, characters etc in 'Randland' this may be too great a challenge and might even perhaps confuse viewers (who become fastened on language/dialect more than the story). I don't therefore think this is likely to be the 'one big change' but I thought I would mention it. I think most of the fanbase would understand if all characters speak 'the New Tongue', without dialects etc though it might be fun to hear some 'Illianer-speak' and, of course, 'the Old Tongue' from some of the Forsaken, Mat etc.

 

(personally it does not bother me how they speak, but I want some 'OId Tongue' like in the books from Mat and some of the Forsaken, it kinda bridges the gap a little between the 2nd and 3rd Age as I see it)

 

 

That's all I can think of for now. Thanks for starting this interesting thread and subject matter. It is a 'clean' reflective discussion which should please everyone.

 

[johnnysd]

Hey all

 

Some screen tests were released today:

 

https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/09/22/leaked-audition-scripts-for-amazons-wheel-of-time-reveal-a-glimpse-at-aes-sedai-rivalries/

 

Although they use code names for most of the scripts they refer to Elayne in it. Now that could be intentional to completely throw us off or it could have been an oversight.

 

If it is our Elayne it could point to several possibilities:

 

1. Elayne is already Aes Sedai

2. Elayne is already Queen, so she would likely be a combo of Morgase and Elayne. In the script Queen could just mean Amrylin as well

3 Sanderson would not love this at all

4. Also seems to confirm Elaida

5. Hints that the main EoTW crew meet the people that captured Logain and that they go to Tar Valon and not Caemlyn. I could see this making a lot of sense because then Egwene and Nynaeve could start their training cutting down on Book 2 stuff

 

Not for those saying; "but the castings?". Well Rafe tweeted that he did a scene with 30 actresses that won or nominated for like 30 Academy Awards and Emmys so there are a ton of unannounced castings that have not been leaked including some major Aes Sedai

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Hey all

 

Some screen tests were released today:

 

https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/09/22/leaked-audition-scripts-for-amazons-wheel-of-time-reveal-a-glimpse-at-aes-sedai-rivalries/

 

Although they use code names for most of the scripts they refer to Elayne in it. Now that could be intentional to completely throw us off or it could have been an oversight.

 

 

from the context, i believe elayne=elaida, or perhaps leane. they were talking about the strongest aes seday, and both of them rank at the top tier.

On 9/21/2020 at 11:17 PM, Borderlander said:

- Changing Min's gender identity dynamic.

i seem to recall that rafe stated that he wanted to address poliamory, but don't ask me for a source. anyway, i doubt she'll be cut as rand's lover.

then again, if min is lesbian and elayne is bisexual and elayne takes rand and min together while rand takes elayne and aviendha, it would still be poliamory. and even more complicated. but i don't expect anything big there.

 

i'm surprised nobody mentioned cutting the prologue. personally i think it's a good decision as it confuses first time viewers, but brandon may disagree.

 

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Not for those saying; "but the castings?". Well Rafe tweeted that he did a scene with 30 actresses that won or nominated for like 30 Academy Awards and Emmys so there are a ton of unannounced castings that have not been leaked including some major Aes Sedai

Rafe was saying that among the 30 women that were filming were women who had won Oscars, Emmys and Tonys. Not that all 30 women were award winners. 
 

I suspect the scene he refers to is Logain’s gentling. I am guessing that most of the major players have been announced already. (With the exceptions of Elaida and Verin - the latter of whom may not be depicted in the scene)

[DragonFairy]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:51 PM, king of nowhere said:

i seem to recall that rafe stated that he wanted to address poliamory,

He did, it was a Twitter Q&A over a year ago. He said that he was uncomfortable with the idea of polygamy (the way in which people commonly refer to Rand's 3 love affairs even though he doesn't marry any of them), and wanted to put it in the context of polyamory. (I am paraphrasing.)

[DragonFairy]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:17 PM, Borderlander said:

- Adding a bunch of modern-day swearing. (I just have a hunch that Sanderson would find this distasteful, especially when Jordan explicitly chose not to write one, single modern day cuss in a multi-million-word series.

 

Actually, 'bloody' and 'flaming' are British swear words (mild ones I think). But I guess they don't really sound like swear words so maybe that's why Jordan used them. I personally am 100% against using any other modern day swear words, but there are some that I think sound too stupid to include, like 'mother's milk in a cup'.

[Harldin]

Some have said that they may skip Caemlyn and go straight to Tar Valon, one problem with that theory is we do have 2 characters we meet in Caemlyn in Basil Gil(Darren Clarke) and off course Loail so there storyline would have to be changed. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Harldin

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Since we're not getting Winternight but are getting Bel Tine, maybe the DO weather fix and BotW arc have been nixed?