T'a'R

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Has anyone connected to the show production talked about how they plan to represent the dream world activity?  Apologies if it has been discussed and I missed it, thanks for any info.

[Harldin]

No haven’t heard much at all, won’t be a lot in S1 anyway, just Ishy and the 3 boys. Personally i imagine it as a permanent twilight, one way of doing could be to film it in Black and White and just the characters in colour, though muted.

[Thrasymachus]

The tricky thing about Tel'aran'Rhiod is that there are times when it is obvious that it's a Dream, and times where, at least to the characters involved, it's hard to tell.  The early dreams, for instance, really Dream-shards, where Ishamael taunts the boys.

 

For that reason, I think the only real consistency that should be pervasive in every depiction of the Dream world or it's various offshoots like nightmares and shards, is a subtle inconsistency in the appearance of background objects and items of clothing.  A fire going from burning to cold as a character walks in front of it on camera.  Buttons changing from being undone to done up, or changing styles/designs on them.  Hair that goes from being pulled back to being loose.  Weapons that jump from holster to hand without any showing of them being taken out.  A random Starbucks cup left on a countertop in the background that disappears in the next shot.  That kind of thing.  Subtle, but purposeful little tells like that.  And then sometimes you can have it be all misty, or washed out in color, or whatever other super obvious effects when it needs to be super obvious they're in the Dream.

[dssharp]

7 hours ago, Harldin said:

No haven’t heard much at all, won’t be a lot in S1 anyway, just Ishy and the 3 boys. Personally i imagine it as a permanent twilight, one way of doing could be to film it in Black and White and just the characters in colour, though muted.

I love the idea of black and white with muted character colors!

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:36 PM, Thrasymachus said:

The tricky thing about Tel'aran'Rhiod is that there are times when it is obvious that it's a Dream, and times where, at least to the characters involved, it's hard to tell.  The early dreams, for instance, really Dream-shards, where Ishamael taunts the boys.

 

For that reason, I think the only real consistency that should be pervasive in every depiction of the Dream world or it's various offshoots like nightmares and shards, is a subtle inconsistency in the appearance of background objects and items of clothing.  A fire going from burning to cold as a character walks in front of it on camera.  Buttons changing from being undone to done up, or changing styles/designs on them.  Hair that goes from being pulled back to being loose.  Weapons that jump from holster to hand without any showing of them being taken out.  A random Starbucks cup left on a countertop in the background that disappears in the next shot.  That kind of thing.  Subtle, but purposeful little tells like that.  And then sometimes you can have it be all misty, or washed out in color, or whatever other super obvious effects when it needs to be super obvious they're in the Dream.

 

Tricky  indeed Thrasymachus, and critical, imo.  Perhaps the most important production choice/s considering the breadth of T'a'R activity in the text, from Book 1 through the end.

 

Agree that they should incorporate some consistent indication but I've gone back and forth on whether a permanent tell should be introduced right off the start.  Right now, I'm leaning toward a delay so the three amigos' early confusion/fear about the Ishy encounters comes through for the audience.  Lol at the Starbucks cup reference.

 

Maybe they will wait for Egwene's harsh first lessons and subsequent tutelage under Amys to provide a more vivid distinction on screen.  Here's to hoping for a '21 that provides us with our first season of enjoyment. 

[Thrasymachus]

I reckon they can include those sorts of subtle changes to costume, hairstyle and background props even in the first season's Dreamshard nightmares.  They just have to be really subtle about it.  Once Tel'aran'Rhiod is well established, they can be blatant about it, having stuff changing directly on-camera as well as changing background stuff between cuts, and once that signature is explained to the characters/audience, eagle-eyed viewers can then go back to re-watch those early scenes and catch those much more subtle tells, or those of us book-readers might keep an eye out for that kind of stuff the first time through and be rewarded with catching it.

[Elgee]

2 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

I reckon they can include those sorts of subtle changes to costume, hairstyle and background props even in the first season's Dreamshard nightmares.  They just have to be really subtle about it.  Once Tel'aran'Rhiod is well established, they can be blatant about it, having stuff changing directly on-camera as well as changing background stuff between cuts, and once that signature is explained to the characters/audience, eagle-eyed viewers can then go back to re-watch those early scenes and catch those much more subtle tells, or those of us book-readers might keep an eye out for that kind of stuff the first time through and be rewarded with catching it.

 

I love that idea ?

I think making the background black and white, like someone mentioned, with just the people / main things in colour, could make it distinct from the waking world too. Being TOO subtle won't be good.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

I reckon they can include those sorts of subtle changes to costume, hairstyle and background props even in the first season's Dreamshard nightmares.  They just have to be really subtle about it.  Once Tel'aran'Rhiod is well established, they can be blatant about it, having stuff changing directly on-camera as well as changing background stuff between cuts, and once that signature is explained to the characters/audience, eagle-eyed viewers can then go back to re-watch those early scenes and catch those much more subtle tells, or those of us book-readers might keep an eye out for that kind of stuff the first time through and be rewarded with catching it.

 

I love this idea. Although I think you can play some of it very overtly for its creepiness. So as Rand wanders through the dream world he can pass an open door, then turn and find it closed. Or wander an empty street only to have things appear.

[Thrasymachus]

I reckon the key, especially for those early dream sequences where there should be some uncertainty about what's going on or whether it's a dream or something else, is that you don't want to give it away too soon.  The stone hallways in Rand's very first nightmare, for example, the doors and the table and fireplace, should look real whenever they're in-focus or in the shot.  Changes in doors should be subtle, going from opened just a crack, where a quick glance might miss that it's not fully closed, to being fully closed, if they do that trick at all in those scenes.  (I wouldn't, it's too big for an early sequence)  No misty fuzziness or black-and-white or washed-out ambiance or weird light seeming to come from everywhere/nowhere.  I'd keep the changes very subtle, a coat pocket that's buttoned up in one cut that's undone in the next, and then buttoned back up in the following.  A subtly different weave pattern in the fabric of that coat, but the cut, color and way it's worn remaining exactly the same.  The fireplace stones that look like skulls, but only when the shot is tightly focused on Rand and he's looking at something else.  That latter to be played up just a bit as Ba'alzamon appears and it's revelation as a dream is moments away anyway.  In those early scenes, the changes should be easy to miss, especially if you don't know to look for them, and even if you do, not knowing which ones to look for.  And that makes sense for a Dreamshard anyway, as its features are more tightly controlled than Tel'aran'Rhiod is naturally.

 

If they keep the only defining feature of a Dream being the impermanence of background features or details, then later appearances of the Dream can be realistic, or ethereal or whatever else they need to be, to capture their own flavor for the use the characters put them to.  Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne's misadventures in TaR can have that much more ethereal and dream-like quality when they're exploring Tanchico or Tar Valon or meeting at Tear, while Perrin's experiences can be much more realistic and "grounded," except for all the shapeshifting and leaping about of course, appearing to be normal fields and woodlands under a normal, sunny sky.  At least until the Dark One's touch begins messing stuff up.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I reckon the key, especially for those early dream sequences where there should be some uncertainty about what's going on or whether it's a dream or something else, is that you don't want to give it away too soon.  The stone hallways in Rand's very first nightmare, for example, the doors and the table and fireplace, should look real whenever they're in-focus or in the shot.  Changes in doors should be subtle, going from opened just a crack, where a quick glance might miss that it's not fully closed, to being fully closed, if they do that trick at all in those scenes.  (I wouldn't, it's too big for an early sequence)  No misty fuzziness or black-and-white or washed-out ambiance or weird light seeming to come from everywhere/nowhere.  I'd keep the changes very subtle, a coat pocket that's buttoned up in one cut that's undone in the next, and then buttoned back up in the following.  A subtly different weave pattern in the fabric of that coat, but the cut, color and way it's worn remaining exactly the same.  The fireplace stones that look like skulls, but only when the shot is tightly focused on Rand and he's looking at something else.  That latter to be played up just a bit as Ba'alzamon appears and it's revelation as a dream is moments away anyway.  In those early scenes, the changes should be easy to miss, especially if you don't know to look for them, and even if you do, not knowing which ones to look for.  And that makes sense for a Dreamshard anyway, as its features are more tightly controlled than Tel'aran'Rhiod is naturally.

 

If they keep the only defining feature of a Dream being the impermanence of background features or details, then later appearances of the Dream can be realistic, or ethereal or whatever else they need to be, to capture their own flavor for the use the characters put them to.  Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne's misadventures in TaR can have that much more ethereal and dream-like quality when they're exploring Tanchico or Tar Valon or meeting at Tear, while Perrin's experiences can be much more realistic and "grounded," except for all the shapeshifting and leaping about of course, appearing to be normal fields and woodlands under a normal, sunny sky.  At least until the Dark One's touch begins messing stuff up.

 

I think we are on the same page here. I'm thinking of the more overt things - the creepiness - to be something that is designed (by Ba'alzamon) to take advantage of the dream to unsettle Rand.

[Thrasymachus]

I think that will be more conveyed by the sudden change of location prompting viewers to be all, "what's going on here?  How did Rand get to this place all of a sudden?" combined with darker (but still realistic) lighting, severe (but still real-looking) stonework and woodwork, the music score, and Josha's acting.  The key is that the audience should be uncertain as to what's going on.  If they catch on to it being a dream before the characters do, that will deflate the tension in those scenes. 

 

And that's also why it will be important for those earlier nightmares, that things like all the rats in the inn having their backs broken following Ba'alzamon's threat with the rat, or Rand's waking up with splinters and thorn pricks he earned while dreaming, be kept in.  Keep the uncertainty alive after the audience is aware that dream sequences are a thing to watch out for, that even if these are dreams, they're not ordinary dreams.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

And that's also why it will be important for those earlier nightmares, that things like all the rats in the inn having their backs broken following Ba'alzamon's threat with the rat, or Rand's waking up with splinters and thorn pricks he earned while dreaming, be kept in.  Keep the uncertainty alive after the audience is aware that dream sequences are a thing to watch out for, that even if these are dreams, they're not ordinary dreams.

 

Yes, for sure.

I think you'll also want the audience believing that it is Ba'alzamon that controls the environment. Weaving in the creepy - Ba'alzamon makes a cup appear, or a fire, or Rand's mom - with the seemingly creepy, but actually part of T'a'R will also keep people off balance.

 

But Rand's Ba'alzamon dreams need to be different in tone from the Wolf Dream while at the same time keeping a few things the same.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Elder_Haman

[Thrasymachus]

I really need to do another re-read soon, but I don't think Rand's mom shows up until Rand's final confrontation with Ba'alzamon.  And I think that final confrontation is the one exception to the general rule, that the audience shouldn't be made explicitly aware they're in a dream before the characters catch on.  That sequence, I think, should be pretty obviously a dream to the audience, especially given the prior dreams Rand's had involving the place that confrontation happens.  In fact, I'd change the appearance of Rand's escape from Tarwin's Gap, instead of mounting endless stairs, I'd make an obvious gateway for him to pass through, just to mark a clearer transition from "real world" Tarwin's Gap to "dreamworld" Ba'alzamon's stronghold (and tighten continuity).  That way, Rand can confront and "kill" Ba'alzamon, while still leaving him alive to keep pestering him in the next season, up until Tear.  Audiences will be smart enough to catch on that killing someone in the Dream might not be enough to ensure that they're dead, and a bit of lore regarding The Horn and TaR can be added to explain that Rand's fight with Ishamael in the skies above Falme actually took place in TaR, which is why both Rand and Ishamael survived.

[Liitha]

i think in the begining it should be somewhat difuse in begining, you would still wonder whats going on but that is as it is in the books, and not having everything handed to you on a silverplate is one of the good things...wondering and guessing a while, keep you on your toes. Then later on its made more obvious for the reader once we know more, and should be the same for the viewer

 

ofc for those who read the books they would know whats going on, but if you havent then it should be like the first time you read the books, not everything should be obvious its part of the fantasy genre and worldbuilding that you learn underways, as the story develop you gain understanding and get answers

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Multiple Q&A sessions with Rafe and no queries re T'a'R that I have seen - anyone catch something I've missed on this? My thirst here is not limited to official releases : )

[mistborn82]

Maybe right now everyone's to excited for season 1.

[TheMountain]

A post on reddit discussed this: I don't think we'll get the dreams in season 1. Rafe mentioned them in this quote: "We have chosen to do a few places extremely well (both culturally and with production design) instead of doing dozens of places cheaply and badly. This results in many changes that have huge ripple effects (if you can't go to Baerlon, do you still meet Min? Do you still encounter the Whitecloaks? Do you still have dreams of Ba'alzamon"

The last line seems odd to me. Why would the location changes affect Rand's dreams? I think that Rafe attempted to fit this tidbit into his answer, regardless of the question.

[Thrasymachus]

Naively, though, both Min and the Whitecloaks are in the first season; they found a way to shield them from those "ripple effects." So it's not clear that's a list of things we won't have, and more a list of things that will be changed up a bunch in order to preserve.  Who knows, though.  It's not as if they've shown much deference to any other aspect of the story thus far.

[mistborn82]

If we get any dreams in season 1 it might be one where they stay in one room and maybe just a voice with flaming eyes. Frankly, I think the dreams were for the WOT trilogy, not the full story, like Egwene and Perrin almost understanding the Old Tongue and a million other things.

@ThrasymachusMin and the whitecloaks are critical story elements, and see above for what I think the dreams are.

[TheMountain]

I think it's possible that they will remove the dreams entirely because they want to imply that Moraine thinks that either Egwene or Nynaeve could be the Dragon Reborn as well. I could easily see there being a certain subset of the viewership who would take the whole "our savior can only be a man" badly without understanding the intended nuance with rebirth, turning of the wheel, madness, etc in the story. A lot of the marketing we've seen has mentioned "five young people, one of whom could be the Dragon Reborn." Now, that could be preserving mystery for new viewers or simply a bad synopsis.... or it could be spot-on (which imo would be a atomic shakeup of the worldbuilding/story). If they had the dreams for only the three boys in the beginning, then right away you know that whatever the Dark One wants is mostly limited to them.

 

Then again, one could argue that in this case the they could make all five have the dreams, but perhaps there would be pushback to that from somebody like Sarah or Harriett.

[Elder_Haman]

28 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

they want to imply that Moraine thinks that either Egwene or Nynaeve could be the Dragon Reborn as well.

I keep going back and forth on whether they will do this. But right now, I think not. Instead, I think they are going to approach the concept of The Dragon sort of like a Red Sister. He's evil. Necessary, but evil. He will need to be controlled and manipulated. 

 

And then they will give the impression that the EF5 will be the ones who are fated to be the controllers and manipulators - the ones who will Protect The World from the Dragon's ravages.

 

In this way, they can (1) play coy with the Dragon's identity [because I think it will become obvious at some point in S`1 that Moiraine knows one of the boys to be the Dragon]; and (2) avoid the whole "it has to be a man" thing, by making the Dragon seem more a destroyer than a savior. 

 

What this will ultimately have to do with the Ishy dreams? I have no earthly idea.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

8 hours ago, TheMountain said:

A post on reddit discussed this: I don't think we'll get the dreams in season 1. Rafe mentioned them in this quote: "We have chosen to do a few places extremely well (both culturally and with production design) instead of doing dozens of places cheaply and badly. This results in many changes that have huge ripple effects (if you can't go to Baerlon, do you still meet Min? Do you still encounter the Whitecloaks? Do you still have dreams of Ba'alzamon"

The last line seems odd to me. Why would the location changes affect Rand's dreams? I think that Rafe attempted to fit this tidbit into his answer, regardless of the question.

 

Appreciate the feedback but I agree with the interpretation this was a list of things requiring additional discussion once Baerleon had been eliminated.

 

Maybe so or maybe not ....

[Thrasymachus]

The Dreams are pretty critical to the story, considering the role that TaR plays in Egwene's, Perrin's, Elayne and Nynaeve's, and Rand's development.  Ishamael's use of them to try to locate the boys is both our first introduction to this critical element of the world-building, and one of the primary tools for setting up that uncertainty as to who the Dark One is really after.  I think the Dreams have to be included in the first season somehow.  I don't think there's going to be anything particularly unique or subtle about them, though.  But who knows?  I know if given the choice between cutting Taren Ferry and Baerlon, I would have cut Taren Ferry.  I also wouldn't have cut Caemlyn from season 1, or replaced it with Tar Valon.  That's not what they chose to do, though.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:57 PM, Liitha said:

i think in the begining it should be somewhat difuse in begining, you would still wonder whats going on but that is as it is in the books, and not having everything handed to you on a silverplate is one of the good things...wondering and guessing a while, keep you on your toes. Then later on its made more obvious for the reader once we know more, and should be the same for the viewer

 

 

I could see S1 concluding with viewers having only seen T'a'R before knowing anything about it from The Big Mo.

 

It's been a bit since my most recent read, but I think some doubt/confusion about T'a'R and the wolf dream being the same existed for a while ... at least in the minds of some characters ... so I do agree with keeping viewers in doubt.

 

Assuming T'a'R makes it into the show at all of course ... might be a challenge to present in a manner that's both engaging and also understandable to a broader viewing audience.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:16 PM, TheMountain said:

I think it's possible that they will remove the dreams entirely because they want to imply that Moraine thinks that either Egwene or Nynaeve could be the Dragon Reborn as well. I could easily see there being a certain subset of the viewership who would take the whole "our savior can only be a man" badly without understanding the intended nuance with rebirth, turning of the wheel, madness, etc in the story. A lot of the marketing we've seen has mentioned "five young people, one of whom could be the Dragon Reborn." Now, that could be preserving mystery for new viewers or simply a bad synopsis.... or it could be spot-on (which imo would be a atomic shakeup of the worldbuilding/story). If they had the dreams for only the three boys in the beginning, then right away you know that whatever the Dark One wants is mostly limited to them.

 

Then again, one could argue that in this case the they could make all five have the dreams, but perhaps there would be pushback to that from somebody like Sarah or Harriett.

 

It seems like a lot of readers completely missed, or ignored, or conveniently forget the savior complex fatal flaw so vividly on display in The Dragon as portrayed by LTT.  Maybe the creative team struggled with how to best portray that conflict for Rand in an accessible manner and just said screw the subtlety, here it is in digital print. Granted, that might not appease the small subset you've referenced, but those folks have an agenda they're going to pursue no matter what.