Why was Demandred so certain that Rand was at Merillor?

[regandd]

I understand that Rand was spotted at the battles which led to Merillor, as he intended, and Mat's skill as a general, augmented by memories of countless previous lives, made Demandred believe he was facing someone from his age i.e. Lews Therin. This to me seem insufficient. He must have known that a battle was being thought at Shayol Ghul, everyone who was fighting for the light at Merillor knew that the Dragon was at Shayol Ghul, so his spies should have known this, and just before Egwene's death I believe she can feel the channelling of saidar coming from the pit of doom, so naturally Demandred should also feel the saidin being channeled. One theory I had, which I give very little credit, is that perhaps Mordin wove Compulsion on him, in order to keep him away from Shayol Ghul, as he did not want him interfering with his own confrontation with the Dragon. Any thoughts?

[2RiversFan]

Just a few years ago, when there was no real expectation (only some small amount of hope) there would be a screen adaptation of Wheel of Time, I had stopped trying to find answers to questions like this.  I stopped because the original author/universe creator was no longer writing and is sadly  unavailable for clarification.

 

Having said that, the last three books are full of plot holes just like the one you mention.  Most of these plot holes at least aren't glaring to most reader's on their first time through, since the books were exciting and most readers are emotionally invested in the characters, many gave Brandon a passing grade.  Others became incensed and wrote scathing posts on this site and others. 

I'm not saying Brandon's not a good writer.  I'm saying that writing in a world so deeply developed, only the original author has the resources/writing ability and (in some cases at least) motivation to ensure all things were true to the constructed universe/world.  That is because the original author is the source of the knowledge.  Brandon Sanderson had to pen a continuation and ending to a journey started years earlier where the original author had at least 2 decades of thoughts and inspirations to fall back on. RJ had also purposefully left very large amounts of plots, characters, motivations, even points of laws of physics (for Randland) hidden for revealing at specific points, to reach a very specific ending.  In my opinion, we got the best we could get - at least I have come to be content with what we have been provided.  I am happy for both Wheel of Time fans and for Brandon Sanderson that he was given the opportunity to write an ending to a story that would otherwise have been left unfinished.

 

I know I haven't answered your question directly, but for me there isn't a good answer within context of the Randland universe.  This is what we have since RJ couldn't complete his opus.  I do hope that the Amazon series stays as true to the books (particularly the masterfully written beginning books) as possible.
 

[regandd]

Yes, that's more or less the conclusion I have drawn concerning some of these issues and I'm not sure if I was expecting a true answer. I myself did not catch this on my first read through, which was less than a year ago, though since then I have read through several times (unwilling to accept that it's over), and therefore have noticed these issues. Little things like this, which certainly do not amount to mistakes, are unavoidable. And I also think Brandon Sanderson done an excellent job.

 

I fear the the Amazon series will have a hard time staying true due to the sheer size of the book series. Also, I doubt it will gain the same popularity as Game of Thrones outside of the fandom, meaning far less money will be invested. Though I am sure it will still be enjoyable.

[Sabio]

The reason was Dem, like so many of the Forsaken, thought of Rand as being LTT.  Hence they saw things in terms of what would LTT do.  Not what would Rand do and LTT would want to lead things directly.  No one could feel channeling at Shayol Ghul, it was too far away to feel normal channeling, maybe all the power going into the bowl of winds.  Even if Dem could feel channeling from Shayol Ghul, who could say it wasn't an Asha'man?  Rand wasn't using anything super powerful until the end.  With  all the channeling happening in Dem's battle, how could he feel anything far way?  Not to mention not many people actually saw Rand enter.  On top of all of that traveling to the place was being disrupted so it's not like he was getting a lot of reports from there.  Dem assumed the skill of the general opposing him, on top of LTT would want to command things directly, meant LTT was out there.  The one final issue no one has taken into account was Dem was using the TP a lot, which a side effect is insanity.  Moghi towards the end even thought about how Dem had changed since being around the Sharans,  So it's quite likely at the end he was partially insane from using the TP so much.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Sabio

[regandd]

I think what you say about the TP and insanity is probably the best explanation. It was remarked upon during Taim's chapter. Without that, despite the other things you have pointed out, he probably should have thought more about Shayol Ghul, considering the obvious importance of that place and that there was another battle going on there.

[Sabio]

As the shadows general, he also couldn't simply run off.  With gateways to Shayol Ghul not working properly there would also be the problem of how to get there even if he had evidence Rand was there.  Remember Mat had to fly there.  To disobey the DO he had better be sure where LTT was.  Imagine had he left for Shayol Ghul and his army falls apart.  The DO is not likely to be very pleased.  I think for the most part Dem couldn't believe LTT wouldn't be commanding the main army.   The book also showed Mats skill in battle as convincing Dem that LTT had to be there.  Only Lanfear and Gren at the end truly understood they weren't dealing with LTT but a different person.  Even Moridin was thinking of Rand as being LTT.

 

[Apple151]

Because this was a Sanderson part on some level if I'm not mistaken?

 

The only valid parts of WOT are RJ only parts... not because I don't like Sanderson but because

obviously.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Apple151

[jsbrads]

LTT ran a raid on Shayol Ghul, saying he knew LTT is a horrible argument to support Rand would be at Merrilor.

Maybe Rand did to Demandred what he did to Sammael in reverse. Rand got Sammael to fortify Illian so he could fight him there (the detour for the final duel at Shadar Logoth was really the fight for Illian). Sammael once he chose his home for which he would fight to the death, Rand could kill him.

Rand could have told Demandred through his actions, that if Demandred wants to kill Rand, he only need come to Merrilor and Rand will fight him to the death. Demandred got the message Rand wanted him to get, but not the truth. 

It should have been possible for Demandred to pierce the subterfuge, but not granted that he must see through it. The result we saw, be it Taveren powers helping Rand, or Rand successfully tricking Dem, or Rand just forgot all about Dem, the result we saw is not a flaw in the story.

There are flaws in the story, this just isn’t one of them. 

[Sabio]

The two big things we see throughout the series is the forsaken had total contempt for any of this age and they constantly thought Rand was LTT.  They didn't understand what the dragon being reborn meant, they just took it as LTT would be back.  So they always assumed Rand would respond as LTT did.  LTT would never leave such an important battle to someone else and no one of this age could possibly have such skill as a general.  Add to it Dem being a bit insane from using the True Power so much and you have someone who isn't thinking clearly.  

[CrystallineTart]

Beucase he had no idea where Rand was...

 

That's how Villains operate somtimes.

 

The series is good up to Book 3 or so but then there's issues and then by the time I don't know at a certain point it was just tboned with RJ dying I mean what's going to kill a series the author dying sucks...

 

So I guess an addendum is that this whole later series portion is just a mess.

 

Which Incidentally... I don't know what to make of Branden Sanderson I have one of his other books now and I thought I'd just start with that first... rather than try and mix and at my Whell of Tik time memories/etc with

others tuff.

[jsbrads]

Elantris, his good stand alone book.

And Mistborn... first three books goodish, universe is really cool, but I’m not a fan of the indefinitely unending stories.

I think Robin Hobb did a better job in her universe, because each culture used different magic, different culture, etc. 

[solarz]

I like the explanation of Demandred going insane from using the TP. Demandred's mannerisms remind me a lot of Baalzamon, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Definitely give props to BS for that!

[pontuzz]

On 5/7/2019 at 9:39 PM, jsbrads said:

Elantris, his good stand alone book.

And Mistborn... first three books goodish, universe is really cool, but I’m not a fan of the indefinitely unending stories.

I think Robin Hobb did a better job in her universe, because each culture used different magic, different culture, etc. 


 

I can assure you the stories aren't never ending. The wonderful thing about the cosmere is that it's all tied together in very interesting ways. And with the events of RoW as well as the preview reading for sixth of dusk, I daresay it's starting to culminate. The more you read the more ties to other worlds you start to find.

As for Elantris being standalone, it is part of the cosmere and I do believe there's another one called The Hope of Elantris which is a short story.
But afaik Elantris is supposed to be a trilogy eventually. 

I love WoT, but since RJ's passing I find Brandon being my go to for some fleshed out fantasy. 

Also I would recommend The Emperors soul, also a short story. But very very good. 
 

Edited February 6, 2021 by pontuzz

[Elder_Haman]

I've always seen this as based on two factors:

(1) Demandred's narcissism - he believed himself so important that there was simply no way that Rand/LTT could possibly ignore him. He believed himself to be such a great general that there was no way that Rand/LTT would possibly delegate the duty of opposing him to someone else. So he was willfully blind to the contrary evidence (in the same way Elaida was stubbornly unaware of things that should have been obvious). 

(2) The time distortion - Demandred couldn't account for what was happening at Shayol Ghul because the time displacement made it impossible to conceptualize when it was happening.

[Jsbrads2]

I tried to explain this to a friend. The Wheel of Time only looks like it is impartial, it secretly twists fate to force the outcome it desires. The ability for the DO to win is a mirage for both the good people and the bad people. Every time someone stumbles on flat ground, falls and breaks their neck, that is the Wheel guiding Randland to the next age.

So if Dem has to stay in Merrilor, something will come up to encourage him to stay there, like Taveren, only stronger, and all over the world, not limited in its relation to one individual.