A New Thread for the Jordan/Sanderson comparison

[Ace Sedai]

Some of the Sanderson criticism was unfair.

HOWEVER.....

I feel like he was self indulgent in focusing on characters who appealed to him personally at the expense of the whole cast.

Perrin/Faile

Androl/Pevara

Those stand out the most to me.

At the end of the day I'm thankful a story I started as a teen was brought to a conclusion no matter what 'faults' I might have found.

[bigdoug1971]

I thought Sanderson did a great job for trying to step in and fill Mr. Jordan's shoes.  I also disagree with a lot of the criticizm he took from people in regards to the books.  I could tell a difference in the writing, especially with Mat, but we did get an ending to our saga and I thought it was very satisfying.  

[muddasssir]

That is why people like me do not come to the DM anymore. LOL maybe we are too old and do not understand the modern tastes. I mean comparing apples and oranges do not come even close. what people find refreshing I find revolting. While Rj's writing is replete with moments where you just have to put the book down and take a deep breath. BS will never give you a moment where yo have to have retrospection and or revelation. Show me one moment in Bs's writing to match moiraine's story of Menthren or Nyn's journey through Borderlands garnering support for Lan. Just to name two of the events of which there were countless examples. Then there was subtle foreshadowing, where he let things hang trusting his readers to find the answer. On the other hand BS was about blatant as slap in the face. He will tell yo a certain thing and keep rubbing it in your face. If you like that kind of stuff. Yo are reading the wrong series. You should try  some ghost or vampire stories. 

[dexterryu]

That is why people like me do not come to the DM anymore. LOL maybe we are too old and do not understand the modern tastes. I mean comparing apples and oranges do not come even close. what people find refreshing I find revolting. While Rj's writing is replete with moments where you just have to put the book down and take a deep breath. BS will never give you a moment where yo have to have retrospection and or revelation. Show me one moment in Bs's writing to match moiraine's story of Menthren or Nyn's journey through Borderlands garnering support for Lan. Just to name two of the events of which there were countless examples. Then there was subtle foreshadowing, where he let things hang trusting his readers to find the answer. On the other hand BS was about blatant as slap in the face. He will tell yo a certain thing and keep rubbing it in your face. If you like that kind of stuff. Yo are reading the wrong series. You should try  some ghost or vampire stories. 

 

I'd argue that there is some of that in BS's own books, but you are right in that there really isn't much of it from him in WoT. I got a little bit of that in ToM in several scenes from Rand. 1st when he asks Tam for forgiveness and second where he saves Maradon. Whether those were RJ or BS, who knows. I could also say Aviendha's trip through the ter'angreal would quality a bit too.

 

I absolutely agree on subtlety though. RJ was the master at that. Especially with Matt and his PTSD. It's not blatant but if you are familiar with it it's there. I can only attribute it to RJ's experiences (personal and via fellow soldiers) in vietnam. Brandon obviously never had anything close to that.

[Ryrin]

Lol, I understand why people wouldn't like BS. I just meant RJ was getting really stale in his writing and dragging on with boring and plots. BS came in an increased the pace of the books and rounded up the books in a quite satisfactory way, maybe better than RJ could have...

Ugh. I would have given anything to have RJ finish his books, especially the last one, a Sanderson disaster.

[Ryrin]

That is why people like me do not come to the DM anymore. LOL maybe we are too old and do not understand the modern tastes. I mean comparing apples and oranges do not come even close. what people find refreshing I find revolting. While Rj's writing is replete with moments where you just have to put the book down and take a deep breath. BS will never give you a moment where yo have to have retrospection and or revelation. Show me one moment in Bs's writing to match moiraine's story of Menthren or Nyn's journey through Borderlands garnering support for Lan. Just to name two of the events of which there were countless examples. Then there was subtle foreshadowing, where he let things hang trusting his readers to find the answer. On the other hand BS was about blatant as slap in the face. He will tell yo a certain thing and keep rubbing it in your face. If you like that kind of stuff. Yo are reading the wrong series. You should try  some ghost or vampire stories.

 

Yes!

[Guest]

I am 52 years old, but I am not too old and I do understand the modern tastes. You don't have to be a relatively young reader to appreciate that the final 3 books of WoT are good, enjoyable books to read as well as a satisfying ending to the series. 

 

Would the last three books have been much better if RJ was able to finish them himself? Of course, without any doubt in my mind, I KNOW that to be true. I believe that RJ IS a MUCH better author and storyteller than Sanderson. But what I don't understand is why so many RJ and WoT fans feel the need to take so many rips against Sanderson. Who else was not only available, but also willing to take on the gargantuan task of writing the last three books of the Wheel of Time after Robert Jordan's death? If there were better choices out there back in 2007, I sure would like to know who those choices were. 

[Ryrin]

Well, I wasn't referring to who else could have finished the books. I thought the last book was horrible in both content and writing.

[JamesBrown]

I wonder that if RJ had been able to finish the last 3 books, they would have been 15 books.

[dexterryu]

Well, I wasn't referring to who else could have finished the books. I thought the last book was horrible in both content and writing.

 

Honestly, I just felt like tone of the characters was  too optimistic for how poorly it was going for the good guys. Rand was almost too at peace... I get that he had his veins of gold moment but that didn't make the situation less desperate. If you ever read Mistborn, it almost felt like Rand became Kelsier. That said, AMOL had it's moments: Lan vs Demendred, Egwene vs Taim (I generally dislike Egwene, but she's always interesting in a fight), Birgitte getting taken out and then her saving the day after the horn... Olver and the horn.

 

I also found how Rand ultimately dealt with the DO to be both interesting and fitting within the way the entire series was about balance... Dark/Light, Male/Female, Saidar/Saidin, White/Black tower, OP/TP...

 

Generally speaking though... even though it took up nearly an entire book the Last Battle itself felt a little rushed. The wins & losses weren't really felt due to the fact that it was pretty much onto the next fight (which to some extent is how war is).

[DemandredFO]

First, RJ never would have finished because obviously no one could tell him no. Some parts of the last 3 could have been better but everyone probably wanted it over. They could tell Brandon you can't do that whereas RJ could do whatever. My guess is it will always come down to most people accepting the Brandon books but some would've hated anyone other than RJ finishing them.

[solarz]

I'm doing my 6th or 7th re-read of the series, and I'm currently nearing the end of The Shadow Rising. The thing that strikes me most is that I can remember quite well what happened up to Book 6, but everything after that is a blur. There are a few bits and pieces of good stuff, like Mat and Tylin, Cleansing Saidin, Saving Moiraine, Aviendha's Visions, etc, but they are quite few for what amounts to 8 books! I can remember more epic moments from the first two books than all 8 of those books combined.

 

As much as I love the series, Jordan lost his way after book 6. Everything that happened in books 6-14 could have fit into 3 books, easily. Sanderson was doing a better job, but not as good a job as needed. He got too focused on tying up all the loose ends when he should have just finished the series. From his 3 books, only 2 events mattered: Mat saving Moiraine, and the Last Battle. Moiraine could have easily been a mid-book climax. The Black Tower could have been dealt with in a single chapter.

[dexterryu]

I'm doing my 6th or 7th re-read of the series, and I'm currently nearing the end of The Shadow Rising. The thing that strikes me most is that I can remember quite well what happened up to Book 6, but everything after that is a blur. There are a few bits and pieces of good stuff, like Mat and Tylin, Cleansing Saidin, Saving Moiraine, Aviendha's Visions, etc, but they are quite few for what amounts to 8 books! I can remember more epic moments from the first two books than all 8 of those books combined.

 

As much as I love the series, Jordan lost his way after book 6. Everything that happened in books 6-14 could have fit into 3 books, easily. Sanderson was doing a better job, but not as good a job as needed. He got too focused on tying up all the loose ends when he should have just finished the series. From his 3 books, only 2 events mattered: Mat saving Moiraine, and the Last Battle. Moiraine could have easily been a mid-book climax. The Black Tower could have been dealt with in a single chapter.

 

I feel that way to a certain extent, but mostly just about 8 (PoD) and 10 (CoT). 7 had some good stuff in it... The bowl search was fun with the Mat interactions and the Golem fight. Also had the duel with Raitan that lead into the Fain/Bubble of evil fight. Then the Samael fight.

 

9 did also... I really enjoyed the Far Madding plot. The cleansing was cool. Also had Mat's escape.

 

The problems with 8-10 was that they started some overly long, drawn out, and usually boring plotlines (Elayne's politics, Perrin and Faile's Prophet/Shaido adventure, and Mat/Tuon courtship).

[Ryrin]

First, RJ never would have finished because obviously no one could tell him no. Some parts of the last 3 could have been better but everyone probably wanted it over. They could tell Brandon you can't do that whereas RJ could do whatever. My guess is it will always come down to most people accepting the Brandon books but some would've hated anyone other than RJ finishing them.

 

Not true for me. The only book where I thought Brandon was awful was the last one.

 

It's too easy and lazy, IMO, to say it's all down to Brandon vs Robert Jordan.

 

RJ also said he knew the ending from the beginning. He planned two more prequels and some outriggers.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Ryrin

[jack of shadows]

@solarZ,

"from his 3 books,only 2 events mattered..."

 

there are a few more key events in the last three books,rand's dragonmount epiphany,

in my opinion,it was hands down the most significant event in the last three books,aviendha's

sequence of flashforwards at rhuidean,although brandon sanderson botched the field of 

merrilor meeting horribly,it was an incredibly significant political summit,unfortunately,brandon

sanderson possesses a political awareness of a 5th-grader regarding randland(no offense meant

to all 5th-graders).

Edited August 15, 2017 by jack of shadows

[wotfan4472]

Agree on the Field Of Merrilor meeting Jack. RJ would have spent a heck of alot more time on that meeting, considering that Mat saving Moiraine was so critical going by the foreshadowing. Still loved the last book though.

Edited August 15, 2017 by wotfan4472

[solarz]

@solarZ,

"from his 3 books,only 2 events mattered..."

 

there are a few more key events in the last three books,rand's dragonmount epiphany,

in my opinion,it was hands down the most significant event in the last three books,aviendha's

sequence of flashforwards at rhuidean,although brandon sanderson botched the field of 

merrilor meeting horribly,it was an incredibly significant political summit,unfortunately,brandon

sanderson possesses a political awareness of a 5th-grader regarding randland(no offense meant

to all 5th-graders).

 

Rand's "epiphany" was just a natural progression of his character development. I would not qualify that as an event anymore than him rediscovering Traveling.

 

Aviendha's visions, while well written, are not in any way crucial to the story.

 

The Field of Merrilor was not necessary either. By then, Rand and the Seanchan had control of most of Randland. Only by author fiat did the borderlanders chose to even contemplate opposition. They were the borderlanders. What else where they going to do in the Last Battle? Only by author fiat did their rulers decide to take most of their armies away from the blightborder, leaving their homes completely vulnerable. Just by saving Maradon, Rand should have had their support. If Egwene had not been a complete moron, she would have thrown the White Tower behind Rand the moment she realized he wasn't crazy anymore. All that drama was completely unnecessary.

[jack of shadows]

@solarZ,

"only by author fiat did the borderlanders choose to even contemplate opposition".

 

irrelevant to the field of merrilor meeting,sure,the entire borderlanders arc from the

path of daggers until towers of midnight is incredibly stupid,but it was settled one day

before the field of merrilor meeting.

 

"if egwene had not been a complete moron..."

 

LOL,well,egwene had a tendency to behave like a moron occasionally,okay,seriously,

brandon sanderson knew that moiraine was supposed to save the day but he was too

lazy to manufacture a real crisis so he dumbed egwene down(not much mind you) just

for the sake of drama like you said.

 

the real reason why do i rate the field of merrilor so highly is because the dragon peace

is a crucial treaty for the future,winning the last battle was only part of rand's plan for randland.

i have read the field of merrilor scene more than 100 times,and even after 3-4 years i'm still

perplexed how badly it was planned and executed,instead of writing  a serious political

summit,brandon sanderson completely ignored some major issues and concentrated on

egwene's antics,aviendha's stupid ultimatum,roedran buffoonery etc,but no matter how

bad the field of merrilor execution was or how incompetent brandon sanderson is as a

writer,the field of merrilor was crucial.

Edited August 16, 2017 by jack of shadows

[solarz]

@solarZ,

"only by author fiat did the borderlanders choose to even contemplate opposition".

 

irrelevant to the field of merrilor meeting,sure,the entire borderlanders arc from the

path of daggers until towers of midnight is incredibly stupid,but it was settled one day

before the field of merrilor meeting.

 

"if egwene had not been a complete moron..."

 

LOL,well,egwene had a tendency to behave like a moron occasionally,okay,seriously,

brandon sanderson knew that moiraine was supposed to save the day but he was too

lazy to manufacture a real crisis so he dumbed egwene down(not much mind you) just

for the sake of drama like you said.

 

the real reason why do i rate the field of merrilor so highly is because the dragon peace

is a crucial treaty for the future,winning the last battle was only part of rand's plan for randland.

i have read the field of merrilor scene more than 100 times,and even after 3-4 years i'm still

perplexed how badly it was planned and executed,instead of writing  a serious political

summit,brandon sanderson completely ignored some major issues and concentrated on

egwene's antics,aviendha's stupid ultimatum,roedran buffoonery etc,but no matter how

bad the field of merrilor execution was or how incompetent brandon sanderson is as a

writer,the field of merrilor was crucial.

 

What is crucial and what isn't is entirely by authorial decree. Aviendha's visions existed only because the author wanted them to exist. The Aiel started a war with the Seanchan (and lost!) only because the author decided it so.

 

The point is, the Sanderson books could have been a lot more streamlined without losing anything worthwhile to the series.

 

IMO, Moiraine should have been the one to restore Rand's state of mind. That would have made Mat's rescue far more impactful. The A/Eelfinn said that Mat would "give up half the light of the world to save the world", obviously referring to him losing one eye. Instead, all he really secured was this nebulous "Dragon's Peace", the absence of which, apparently, would only have been detrimental to the Aiel and the White Tower.

[dexterryu]

A few points here. Fields of Merilor, while underwhelming was important because it basically accomplished what should have been the direction from the get go and that is getting humanity (the light side of it anyway) focused on a singular goal of winning the LB.

 

In a world where the One Power is real, and prophesies (Calandor, Stone, etc...) are real and were fulfilled the people in it were remarkably in denial about the fact that the end was coming. Leaders were more concerned about their own personal gain vs survival which doesn't really make sense in a world where such things are real and have been demonstrated to exist. Yes, some people would still be idiots but most would focus on existing vs power.

 

Pretty much the non-shaido Aiel were the only ones that acted accordingly: Their prophesies were fulfilled and they started doing what needed to be done.

 

So Fields of Merilor did accomplish Rands purpose which was to get everyone moving in one direction so that all could survive.

[muddasssir]

Hi, everyone I am back, but what yo gs do not understand is that when decision to split the final book into three was first announced. We had  some very heated debates here on a thread named greed. Me and few others rasied exactly these points. We were of the view that BS is not RJ. THEREFORE, he will never be able to finish this book satistfactorily and time has proven us right

[solarz]

Hi, everyone I am back, but what yo gs do not understand is that when decision to split the final book into three was first announced. We had  some very heated debates here on a thread named greed. Me and few others rasied exactly these points. We were of the view that BS is not RJ. THEREFORE, he will never be able to finish this book satistfactorily and time has proven us right

 

I didn't say Sanderson's books were not satisfactory. They were, but they were just satisfactory. They're better compared to books like Crossroads of Twilight, or even 90% of Winter's Heart, but Sanderson could not write epic scenes like Jordan could.

 

The Last Battle, although taking over half the book, was not half as exciting as the Battle of Falme or the defense of the Two Rivers. That's not saying it was bad, because I still enjoyed it, but it did not have the epic feel from the beginning of the series.

[dexterryu]

 

Hi, everyone I am back, but what yo gs do not understand is that when decision to split the final book into three was first announced. We had  some very heated debates here on a thread named greed. Me and few others rasied exactly these points. We were of the view that BS is not RJ. THEREFORE, he will never be able to finish this book satistfactorily and time has proven us right

 

I didn't say Sanderson's books were not satisfactory. They were, but they were just satisfactory. They're better compared to books like Crossroads of Twilight, or even 90% of Winter's Heart, but Sanderson could not write epic scenes like Jordan could.

 

The Last Battle, although taking over half the book, was not half as exciting as the Battle of Falme or the defense of the Two Rivers. That's not saying it was bad, because I still enjoyed it, but it did not have the epic feel from the beginning of the series.

 

 

I agree here. Something about the last battle felt underwhelming. It's not that it was bad or poorly written it just didn't have something that Jordan's did, he had a way of making you feel like you were there. Although, I thought whoever wrote the Maradon battles with Ituralde was pretty good.  IMHO... my favorite battle is lifting the Shaido seize of Cairhien... particularly Mat's sections.

[solarz]

I agree here. Something about the last battle felt underwhelming. It's not that it was bad or poorly written it just didn't have something that Jordan's did, he had a way of making you feel like you were there. Although, I thought whoever wrote the Maradon battles with Ituralde was pretty good.  IMHO... my favorite battle is lifting the Shaido seize of Cairhien... particularly Mat's sections.

 

 

Yes, that's one of my favorite battle scenes too. When Jordan was good, he was very good.

 

Ironically, the Maradon battle was more memorable than the Last Battle for me.

 

Let's put it this way, although I enjoyed the last 3 books, it didn't make me want to seek out Sanderson's own books and read them.

[dexterryu]

 

I agree here. Something about the last battle felt underwhelming. It's not that it was bad or poorly written it just didn't have something that Jordan's did, he had a way of making you feel like you were there. Although, I thought whoever wrote the Maradon battles with Ituralde was pretty good.  IMHO... my favorite battle is lifting the Shaido seize of Cairhien... particularly Mat's sections.

 

 

Yes, that's one of my favorite battle scenes too. When Jordan was good, he was very good.

 

Ironically, the Maradon battle was more memorable than the Last Battle for me.

 

Let's put it this way, although I enjoyed the last 3 books, it didn't make me want to seek out Sanderson's own books and read them.

 

 

His own stuff is fairly good. Mistborn is a fun series. I've heard good things about Stormlight Archives, but I'm going to wait until the series is done before jumping in.

 

As for the LB... it felt more like I was reading the news summarizing it than really feeling the battles. As much as I didn't want the series to be extended further they could have paced it across another book, IMO. The losses came quick and there wasn't really time to feel their impact before the story moved on. I know, "such is war", but with the rather minimal epilogue the character deaths didn't really hit me like they sometimes did in other books.

Edited August 28, 2017 by dexterryu