tGH Horn Heroes Adressing Rand, Matt, & Perrin

[DaoineSidhe]

Here's something that has always bothered me a little bit. First some setup:

 

I think it is safe to assume (if it hasn't been confirmed by RJ, BS, or Harriet, I don't know) that Perrin and Matt are also Heroes of the Horn. Not just because of their epic nature but also I think it is implied when you look at the War of the Power in the AoL. Birgitte was present then, along Gaidal (sp?), so it seems safe to guess that there is more than Rand as an active Horn Hero coming up to the Last Battle.

 

Now, back to my main topic. If they are, it always kind of disturbs me that the Hero's of the Horn really only acknowledge Rand as someone they know from Past lives when they show up in tGH... Am I missing some subtle hints that they do recognize them, did RJ just not want to reveal so much about them so early in the series, or are they really not Heroes of the Horn?

 

As I said, I tend to think that Perrin and Matt are, but just wanted to see what other WoTers think.. and Discuss!

[Azrayne]

It's possible, but I don't think it's necessary. After all, new heroes have to be created somehow so they can be spun out into future lives.

 

Which brings me to another interesting point, you'd think that the pattern would have spun most of the heroes out to be reborn in time to face the Last Battle, instead of leaving them in the Dream to be summoned by the horn.

[FarShainMael]

Sometimes the Wheel adds to their number, indeed. And I wonder if it's a case of once a HotH, always a HotH.. But I definitely had the impression that when Hawkwing greeted Mat as 'Trumpeter' and Perrin as 'Bannerman' this was an intentional formality; I think he knew exactly who they were and what the had been doing, as he knew this about Hurin. But perhaps some Precept forbade him to speak, as they had not yet begun to realise their potential.

 

[rand4747]

some of the heroes have specific purposes not related to the last battle. they can be called forth for it but they are needed elsewhere for something else, and a hero is not a taverin although they do seem to serve similar functions but the hero probablt doesn't force the pattern around them they are destined for something great but other than that are just a regular non taverin. It may be possible to lose the hero status if you dont live up to your purpose though.

[spoke]

Well, I have seen this speculated many times - Mat as Aemon Reborn and Tuon as Elderene Reborn. Perrin is a bit more complicated, but even if he were a hero bound to the wheel, he probably would have hung out with the wolves.

[muddasssir]

this is very interesting as he tells Hurin that sometimes wheel adds to our number but he makes no such comment about Mat and Perrin to me it implies that he knows them as the people already attached to the wheel

[peregrine]

Sometimes the Wheel adds to their number, indeed. And I wonder if it's a case of once a HotH, always a HotH.. But I definitely had the impression that when Hawkwing greeted Mat as 'Trumpeter' and Perrin as 'Bannerman' this was an intentional formality; I think he knew exactly who they were and what the had been doing, as he knew this about Hurin. But perhaps some Precept forbade him to speak, as they had not yet begun to realise their potential.

 

I like this theory. Is it compatible with the theory Mat is Aemon reborn? We're never told Aemon is a HotH, but I don't know how (if?) reincarnation occurs in Randland otherwise.

[Majsju]

Sometimes the Wheel adds to their number, indeed. And I wonder if it's a case of once a HotH, always a HotH.. But I definitely had the impression that when Hawkwing greeted Mat as 'Trumpeter' and Perrin as 'Bannerman' this was an intentional formality; I think he knew exactly who they were and what the had been doing, as he knew this about Hurin. But perhaps some Precept forbade him to speak, as they had not yet begun to realise their potential.

 

I like this theory. Is it compatible with the theory Mat is Aemon reborn? We're never told Aemon is a HotH, but I don't know how (if?) reincarnation occurs in Randland otherwise.

 

Reincarnation is for everyone, not just Heroes.

[kght22]

it is possible that they are heroes of the horn, it is also just as likely that they are not. ltt/rand/dragon being a hero of the horn is not an example of most heroes of the horn. keep in mind that birgette had memories of boring lives, exciting lives, lives where she died of old age, and lives where she didn't do much. jaim farstrider might be a hero of the horn, but we have as much evidence that he is as we do for perrin and mat, while we have evidence of many epic characters through the series but there are less than a thousand (i remember the number 500) heroes of the horn. if we tried we could easily find reasons to id many individuals in the series as possible heroes of the horn, being ta'varene has nothing to do with it though, lan has a better chance than perrin (lan is a living legend) and even luc and isam have a chance, just because they are dark now doesn't mean they were last spin.

 

to consolidate this post, trying to guess at who could be a hero of the horn reborn is an excercise in either stupidity or intellectual masturbation, although i must say i am in favor of the latter.

 

maybe elan tedronia is a hero of the horn, it is just as likely as mat being one.

[peregrine]

to consolidate this post, trying to guess at who could be a hero of the horn reborn is an excercise in either stupidity or intellectual masturbation, although i must say i am in favor of the latter.

 

Oh, I agree. It's the latter. The whole point of the thread is to speculate -- if we could get the answer from the books/RJ's quotes/etc., someone would have answered the question years ago.

[FarShainMael]

Sometimes the Wheel adds to their number, indeed. And I wonder if it's a case of once a HotH, always a HotH.. But I definitely had the impression that when Hawkwing greeted Mat as 'Trumpeter' and Perrin as 'Bannerman' this was an intentional formality; I think he knew exactly who they were and what the had been doing, as he knew this about Hurin. But perhaps some Precept forbade him to speak, as they had not yet begun to realise their potential.

 

I like this theory. Is it compatible with the theory Mat is Aemon reborn? We're never told Aemon is a HotH, but I don't know how (if?) reincarnation occurs in Randland otherwise.

 

Entirely compatible - though not inevitable; Mat could be someone else, though I've always liked the idea of him being Aemon.

 

Reincarnation is ubiquitous in the Randverse; recall the common oath 'By the Light and my hope of salvation and rebirth'. But AIUI, only the souls bound to the Horn await rebirth in T'A'R; most souls hang out somewhere else - though I don't think we've been told where.

[DaoineSidhe]

I wonder if those other souls become the flow of the OP, powering the turning of the Wheel? They have to go somewhere, and well, seems like a possible place, and kind of fits with the rebirth model. The dead souls cycle from death to rebirth powers the turning of the wheel, kind of like a water wheel, and then they are returned to the Pattern, to live out their new lives, until they die again, and repeat the process. The only thing I don't like about it is that it would mean the OP is basically the souls of the dead, which seems kind of creepy...

[jsbrads]

It's possible, but I don't think it's necessary. After all, new heroes have to be created somehow so they can be spun out into future lives.

 

Which brings me to another interesting point, you'd think that the pattern would have spun most of the heroes out to be reborn in time to face the Last Battle, instead of leaving them in the Dream to be summoned by the horn.

 

Not a bad question, but I guess heros would be needed later too, to rebuild, keep the peace, maybe most of them were out... who knows all heros, Ingtar joined them and noone knows of him.

[Gabriel Kross]

Ok just to point out something, it was revealed that the wolfbrother traight is soulbound so the probabilty of Perrin being a HotH is highly likely, he is also referred to as the wolfking in prophecy but as we know he isnt a wolfking when he fulfills the prophecy so maybe his last life was the wolfking? we know so little about the wolfbrothers that it could be possible, also one of Mat's early memories from after the healing was I believe one of Aemon's generals so I do not think it is true that Mat is Aemon but him being one of the top generals is possible.

[FarShainMael]

"When the Wolf King carries the Hammer, then are the final days known" (KoD4)

 

If the 'Hammer' is mah'alleinir, this would seem to show that Perrin was 'WolfKing' before he forged it - or perhaps the forging made him the Wolf King in some way.

[lordofsoup]

So Perrin is a wolf in a human body? Do wolves get reincarnated?

[FarShainMael]

They are entirely at home in T'A'R - indeed, some have wondered whether they are those 'unseen eyes'. And, of course, Perrin met Hopper's soul there - and Hopper then died the 'true death' (ToM37). So it sounds very much as though wolves are reborn.

[bsmnt23]

It seems to me that the Horn or the Pattern or the Creator is not managing their assets as well as they ought to. The Heroes of the Horn, as we saw in tGH, are an awesome force that have abilities far beyond what they would have in their mortal incarnations. In tGH it was said that Rand was suprised there were so few actual heroes connected to the Horn; a few dozen at most. Well, with Birgitte ripped prematurely from TAR and now mortal and lacking her preternatural abilities that she displayed at the battle of Toman Head, Gaidail Cain a brand-new babe, potentialy Calian the Chooser and her brother Shivan the Hunter as Elayne's children, the Horn-summoned heroes ranks are looking a little thin. When Birgette is at Toman Head, she rides a horse across the waves of the ocean and blows up numerous Seanchan ships with a single arrow each; point is these guys are all Big Guns in the fight against the Shadow and it's hard to see why the Pattern would sandbag when the big game is just about to start. Obviously there is going to be room for great events after the (enevitable) victory of the Light and the Wheel Turns and so on, but it's going to be some pretty funny when Mat toots that fabled horn for a big glorius charge agianst a hge hord of ravening trollocs only to find when the mist clears Artur Hawkwing and a couple second-stringers no one even remembers the names of. It would be like calling for the Justice League and getting Batman with Plastic Man and ("...My ability to comunicate with fish is of no use, Wonder Woman!") Aquaman.

[DaoineSidhe]

Lurk, I think you've got a certain point especially when it comes to the Heroes we know are walking around (Brigitte, Gadail Cain as Olver), but I do think it very premature to expect that Elayne's children are going to be HotH. Yes, Shivan and Calian need to be reborn soon (being he Heralds of End of Age stuff, etc), but they could be born AFTER TG, and so could still fight for the Horn during TG. Also, it seems to me that most of the HotH has very humble beginnings in life, and then rise to greatness living their adventures. While this isn't true for all, it does tend to make me think that Elayne's children will not be HotH. They are already going to be OP OP users who can channel constantly, no need to make them even more, lol.

 

It will be interesting to see just how many HotH return for TG. Of course, I also think it is possible that the main use of the Horn is going to be to bring Artur Hawkwing back to tell it straight to the Seanchan and get them in line for TG. I mean, that could be potentially WAY more important than having them there for a TG where they will be linked to Rand, and his success against the Shadow.

[bsmnt23]

@DaoineSidhe

 

Lurk, I think you've got a certain point especially when it comes to the Heroes we know are walking around (Brigitte, Gadail Cain as Olver), but I do think it very premature to expect that Elayne's children are going to be HotH. Yes, Shivan and Calian need to be reborn soon (being he Heralds of End of Age stuff, etc), but they could be born AFTER TG, and so could still fight for the Horn during TG. Also, it seems to me that most of the HotH has very humble beginnings in life, and then rise to greatness living their adventures. While this isn't true for all, it does tend to make me think that Elayne's children will not be HotH. They are already going to be OP OP users who can channel constantly, no need to make them even more, lol.

 

It will be interesting to see just how many HotH return for TG. Of course, I also think it is possible that the main use of the Horn is going to be to bring Artur Hawkwing back to tell it straight to the Seanchan and get them in line for TG. I mean, that could be potentially WAY more important than having them there for a TG where they will be linked to Rand, and his success against the Shadow.

 

We really cant confirm anything about weather Rand and Elayne's babes are or arent the Choser or the Hunter reborn untill we can get a full headcount when the Horn is sounded. It's a theory that Dragonmount has brought up in the past that I adhere to and find very likely given all the events surrounding their nacent lives. The Pattern after all, recognises neither title nor station in its weavings so that they are prince and princess of Andor wouldnt factor in their being reborn Heroes.

That being said; ...Cain. As much as I wanted it to be, Cain isnt reborn as Olver (I think he was intended to be but was changed after someone pointed out the discrepencies in birthdates that wouuld not allow it, but whatever; I'll not contest it). Cain has been reborn, but is currently an infant. Popular theory has it that he is the child of one of the Asha'man who follows Rand. Granted he is going to grow up in an interesting world post-TG, and obviously the Pattern spun him out for a reason, but I'm sure we'd all like to know what reason could be so important as to spin out the greatest swordsman ever before he could assist in the Last Battle. It's the LAST Battle everyone, could we get an outrigger on that, or at least see the notes RJ put down on whats more important than that? (of course if you have Lan, Gawain and Galad all running arround the battlefield, what matters one more guy who can swing a sword?)

Anyhoo, I am very much looking foreward to Hawkwing answering the summons of the Horn to see what the Seanchan have wraught in his name. I'm thinking he is going to sit Fortuona down for a Very Serious Talking-to.

[jsbrads]

Good eye on the usefulness of Arthur, but how to get Tuon there...

also just thought of a bunch more people to add Noal/Jain, who else died in the series (already mentioned Ingtar)

[TheLagomorph]

this is very interesting as he tells Hurin that sometimes wheel adds to our number but he makes no such comment about Mat and Perrin to me it implies that he knows them as the people already attached to the wheel

 

It always struck me that the remark that the wheel sometimes adds to their number immediately implies that it also removes from their number. If the wheel turns, time without end, adding heroes without removing them will lead to an infinite amount of heroes of the horn. The question then is how the dynamic equilibrium works. What is the average residence time for people in the 'heroes of the horn' group? How are they removed and why? Are there temporary heroes and fixed ones? Questions, questions...

 

This btw is also why I never got how someone supposedly smart like Elan Tedronai did not see that the combination of infinite time and current existence is proof that the probability of a win for the DO is zero (assuming the DO destroys the world if he wins). His turning to the dark side was supposedly based on his logic but it is in fact based on the assumption, against evidence to the contrary (i.e. current existence), that the probability of a DO victory is not zero. Anyway, getting sidetracked here.

 

I do not think Perrin and Mat are heroes, nor Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve or any other major character for that matter. (edit. aside from Rand and Birgitte of course)

[TristanWebb]

How does infinite time and current existance mean it couldn't happen in the future? It just means it hasn't happened in the past. The Wheel has always been turning and will always turn unless an outside force stops it, it could of been very close an infinite amout of times and just not happened. The dark one is outside the Pattern, probabilities don't matter.

[FarShainMael]

It's inherent in the meaning of the word 'infinity'. In an infinite time period, everything that can happen will happen, and have already happened (an infinite number of times), up to the present moment; and will happen again, in the future (an infinite number of times).

 

My brain hurts..

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's inherent in the meaning of the word 'infinity'. In an infinite time period, everything that can happen will happen, and have already happened (an infinite number of times), up to the present moment; and will happen again, in the future (an infinite number of times).

 

My brain hurts..

 

I never thought this could apply to the wheel. It doesn't work logically. There HAS to be a beginning of the Wheel. In fact, we do have a beginning point when "the Creator imprisoned the DO at the moment of Creation." This means there has to be a "first revolution of the Wheel." Having said that, the current turning could only be the 2nd, or 3rd, or 200,000th. So I think it is probable that some events haven't happened yet.

 

Like Fain, who is a new addition to the Pattern, something different. If the laws of infinity were true in this case, Fain would not be something new, but a recurrence of things that happened before.

 

Thus I never liked the logic that the DO should have already won.

 

I can buy the fact that because the Wheel will just keep turning, it is inevitable the DO will win, but I think that it just hasn't happened yet. The Wheel hasn't run out of alternate possibilities yet, so its still turning.