tGH Horn Heroes Adressing Rand, Matt, & Perrin

[FarShainMael]

I've said elsewhere that I think 'Creator time' and 'Wheel time' are not the same; I've compared this to a programmer writing a computer game. If the entities in the game were sentient (think Tron!) they might perceive their own time as infinite, as Rand did in VoG:

 

He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, sretching to infinity.

 

But the Creator/programmer sees it differently. To him the program exists as a whole; he can perceive it all, including its time dimension, as a block. I am indebted to Tamyrlin1 for introducing me to this:

 

http://en.wikipedia....losophy_of_time)

 

For the programmer, the moment of creation is the moment he locks the Dark One in his room and presses the 'Run' button; but the programme-entities don't perceive that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ah, thanks for that, understand what your saying now!

[capeta]

As I recall don't we get a POV from Jaichim Carridin as he hears the horn sounded? didn't he look and feel a pull from it? so the question is. is that a horn pull or a taverin pull? it may be that he was a hero who in this life fell to the shadow. Maybe he will be removed this time around.

[James al'Dylan]

I think that Perrin's connection to the wolves actually makes it less likely that he's a 'regular' HotH. The relationship with wolves is very old remember, whereas I see the HotH as from human history. This is not to say that the HotH won't recognise his soul, but I think Perrin's role in matters is somehow different.

[Kudzu]

It seems to me that the Horn or the Pattern or the Creator is not managing their assets as well as they ought to. The Heroes of the Horn, as we saw in tGH, are an awesome force that have abilities far beyond what they would have in their mortal incarnations. In tGH it was said that Rand was suprised there were so few actual heroes connected to the Horn; a few dozen at most. Well, with Birgitte ripped prematurely from TAR and now mortal and lacking her preternatural abilities that she displayed at the battle of Toman Head, Gaidail Cain a brand-new babe, potentialy Calian the Chooser and her brother Shivan the Hunter as Elayne's children, the Horn-summoned heroes ranks are looking a little thin. When Birgette is at Toman Head, she rides a horse across the waves of the ocean and blows up numerous Seanchan ships with a single arrow each; point is these guys are all Big Guns in the fight against the Shadow and it's hard to see why the Pattern would sandbag when the big game is just about to start. Obviously there is going to be room for great events after the (enevitable) victory of the Light and the Wheel Turns and so on, but it's going to be some pretty funny when Mat toots that fabled horn for a big glorius charge agianst a hge hord of ravening trollocs only to find when the mist clears Artur Hawkwing and a couple second-stringers no one even remembers the names of. It would be like calling for the Justice League and getting Batman with Plastic Man and ("...My ability to comunicate with fish is of no use, Wonder Woman!") Aquaman.

 

There were just over (or under maybe, can't remember) 100 hero's that answered Mat's call. Gaidel may have a more important role to play for the Pattern in the years following the Last Battle. Aside from him, Birgette and Rand are the only others we know for certain have been spun/ripped out. Rand has plenty of power so he is no loss and Birgette is still a good warrior, though will lack her special Horn powers.

 

Pretty sure there is no such thing as a second string Hero. They are the hundred or so greatest heros of all time and are nigh on immortal when they answer the Horns call.

[Sheepherder]

 

This btw is also why I never got how someone supposedly smart like Elan Tedronai did not see that the combination of infinite time and current existence is proof that the probability of a win for the DO is zero (assuming the DO destroys the world if he wins). His turning to the dark side was supposedly based on his logic but it is in fact based on the assumption, against evidence to the contrary (i.e. current existence), that the probability of a DO victory is not zero. Anyway, getting sidetracked here.

 

 

The way I saw it, Ishy's logic for turning was based more on his nihilistic belief that the continuous turning of the wheel and the spinning out of lives over and over was pointless. Similar to the conclusion rand almost came to during VoG. It's not that he thinks the DO must inevitably win but that he'd prefer it if the DO would win so it can all be finally over.

[Suttree]

There were just over (or under maybe, can't remember) 100 hero's that answered Mat's call. Gaidel may have a more important role to play for the Pattern in the years following the Last Battle. Aside from him, Birgette and Rand are the only others we know for certain have been spun/ripped out. Rand has plenty of power so he is no loss and Birgette is still a good warrior, though will lack her special Horn powers.

 

Pretty sure there is no such thing as a second string Hero. They are the hundred or so greatest heros of all time and are nigh on immortal when they answer the Horns call.

 

Correct, just over a hundred...

 

TGH

Is this all of you?" They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be.

[tonyv]

If you think about it, Perren is never mentioned as having a past life in the entire series. It's just Mat and Rand, and Mat's not talked about as having a past life until the go to the Aiel Waste in the Shadow Rising.

[Maleshub]

If you think about it, Perren is never mentioned as having a past life in the entire series. It's just Mat and Rand, and Mat's not talked about as having a past life until the go to the Aiel Waste in the Shadow Rising.

 

I thought that the whole WoT concept was on rebirth. Even commoners are reborn by the pattern or wheel. Even if Perrin's past lives haven't been mentioned in detail, they are there.

 

But I think that Mat and Perrin's past lives are mentioned in the books, if indirectly. Perrin is mentioned in the Dark Prophecies (when Moridin let Graendal read the part and ordered her to bring him Perrin's head). If he is part of the prophecies (Dark and Light prophecies), then he is a constant in the fight between the DO and the Dragon. So, he has to be there every time. And the same applies to Mat, who is also part of the prophecies.

[tonyv]

I must have missed that part it's, been a while since I've read it.

[Maleshub]

I must have missed that part it's, been a while since I've read it.

 

I cannot bring up the exact quotes right now. My post was from memory mixed with personal analysis. So, it isn't canon or even close till someone more knowledgeable verifies it.

[tonyv]

Canon?

[FarShainMael]

Canon = a genuine part of the WoTverse as conceived by RJ. As opposed to speculation, theories and fanfic. (All of which are great fun.. )

 

I think Theodril was referring to the Dark Prophecy in ToM Epilogue:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/dark.html

 

There is considerable debate as to exactly who the figures actually are, though some seem obvious. I'll try and locate the relevant threads.

 

 

 

(sp )

[TristanWebb]

So prophecies are the same in every 3rd age? Got a quote that supports that please?

[FarShainMael]

Canon = a genuine part of the WoTverse as conceived by RJ. As opposed to speculation, theories and fanfic. (All of which are great fun.. )

 

I think Theodril was referring to the Dark Prophecy in ToM Epilogue:

 

http://encyclopaedia...ecies/dark.html

 

There is considerable debate as to exactly who the figures actually are, though some seem obvious. I'll try and locate the relevant threads.

 

 

 

(sp )

 

Ah, here we are:

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/57944-dark-prophecy/

 

There was another one, but that got locked.

[tonyv]

i agree with James. Perrin's pull with the wolves may have trancended the pull of the wheel.

[Knivy]

This is my take on the infinite time/wheel issue. The Wheel is just that, a wheel. There is no start or stop in a wheel. The the first chapter of every book, in the first paragraph says "There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the wheel of time..." What does have a beginning is the Pattern. The wheel turns eternally, but that doesnt mean that it has anything to weave. Everyone has their thread in the pattern. Death does not eliminate the thread, the only thing that can is balefire, which i picture as a cut in the thread, ending it. I believe that those bound to the horn arent bound because of what they did, but they do those great things because the wheel spun their threads in such a way that linked them to the horn, leading them to do great things in one incarnation or another. I believe in Rands convo with Hawkwing, Mr. Hawkwing says something to the effect of "It takes more than [greatness, courage, valor, something along those lines] to become a hero of the horn." Sadly I only own ToM, so i cannot look it up at this time to be exact. I believe my wheel/pattern distinction allows for the non-infinite heroes. It also implies that Perrin and Mat are constants in the third age. I dont think that Ta'veren could be anything but constants, as it is reinforced many times that ta'veren are bound tightly to the pattern.

 

Thanks for listening