How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[WhiskyJack]

Alivia had a ter'angreal that made reverse weaving thing pointless.

 

The ter'angreal that Alivia had only helps with detecting channeling, it does not help her seeing the actual weaves as they are being made. I think it was Graendal who used it on Verin as well.

 

All? A good number did pick on fire lotus and used it badly (close to building) but death gates was picked by Logain and probably one more guy (and no woman). Yet, their killing power just went off the roof the moment they learned fire lotus. I am not sure who said that they barely won in KoD but from what I remember, they won very easily. Only reason it was "close" fight because they were inside a house and trollocs basically jumped on them. If I recall correctly, fire lotus is not mentioned after KoD. Asha'man along with Perrin didn't use it once and nor did the Asha'man in Maradon. Ofcourse I am not sure. They might have in background and it's not just mentioned but I doubt it's the case. And except Rand/Logain and one or two more guys, I doubt anyone knows how to weave deathgates, a weave Rand should have made common knowledge.

 

I agree that on an average men are stronger than women but a good number of Aes Sedai in WT probably were born with Spark unlike men (I doubt there are even 3 dozen with spark). We don't know for sure that huge part of asha'man can travel. We don't even have sufficient perspective on women to say how many can travel but lets assume Moiraine, Siuan(in past), Katrine....can travel unaided. Now these women have pitful strength in OP compared to Rand.

 

It's pointed out so many times that a waste majority of the sisters aren't strong enough to travel on their own, yet there has to be a rather large amount of Asha'man that are capable of doing it. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to have all those recruiting parties out and at the same time serve in combat in various places.

 

And of course those at Maradon or those with Perrin didn't know Fire lotus or any of the other fancy weaves, none of them have been taught those weaves, those in Maradon came straight from The Black Tower to serve Ituralde. As for the two with Perrin, they haven't been close to any other male channelers since ACoS.

 

1) Not true. It unraveled a reverse fire thingy..that's what truly shocked Cyndane.

2) I don't wanna deal with speculation and conjecture. I don't remember books well so you might be right about vast majority. But if Elaida could do it..pitiful compared to Rand. We will find out in next book just how strong Rand is. I do not wish to discover though that when Rand grows angry, he turns into Hulk. Makes no sense.

[Entreri]

See above. Btw, Naeff is a full fledged Asha'man.

 

So? full fledged Aes Sedai didn't know travelling, how to make ter'angreal or heartsone, or how to unravel weaves! Furthermore, any "full fledged" Asha'man has been channeling for two years max. They are experts and scholars of nothing. Wouldn't you be surprised if Naeff just stood coolly, not surprised or at awe in the least, given what Rand knows and how strong he is? Naeff is stunned seeing the most powerful channeler ever, push himself to the limit. When _every_ channeler at the BT is weaker and far less skilled, and most are significantly weaker, there's no way Naeff would have any concept of that level of skill/power.

 

So in response he makes an appropriate an understandable, hyperbolic statement to convey his awe.

 

I don't keep harping on this point, here it is though, Naeff: "I've NEVER seen so many weaves at once. I CAN'T TRACK THEM ALL".

 

The author's decription: "Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like AN ENTIRE ARMY OF CHANNELERS."

 

 

And if you want further explaination, see my previous post.

 

Thank God. Imagine if someone had said how lame Rand was! I bet you will like, yo Rand lost all the power yo!

 

 

Don't be so obtuse.

 

Btw, people can lose OP strength various ways (we know of two ways thus far: severed and healed by the opposite sex and the Snakes and Foxes draining).

 

 

At Maradon, Rand alone faced against an Army of Trollocs many times the size of the 100,000 that Rand and 20+ other channelers barely managed to defeat in KoD. Actually one half-man got through and nearly killed Rand.

 

KoD battle against 100,000:

 

Rand, his LTT persona has taken over = LTT of AoL.

Logain, "almost" as strong as Rand = Demandred, Aginor strength level.

According to Aes Sedai in Salidar, Logain's Power strength is immense: "if only five had being holding his shield, he might have".

Nyaneve with angreal = stronger to much stronger than Lanfear. Even without an angreal, Nynaeve is only behind Lanfear, Alivia, Cyndane, and Grandael in strength. Sharina has the potential to be stronger.

Cadusane with angreal = possibly as strong as Lanfear, also has 300 years of Power experience.

Alivia = possibly as strong as Lanfear, if not as at least as strong as Cyndane. Decribed as being "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve. Alivia has 400 years of experience BEING A WEAPON. She probalby knows more killing weaves than anyone else.

Narishma = he is a particularly strong Asha'man and so far the strongest after Rand and Logain among the males in that group.

 

And the many other channelers who were there.

 

Compare that to what Rand alone did in Maradon.

They barely managed to kill off the 100,000 and one got through to Rand. Rand at Maradon = massacred the Trolloc Army.

 

Really the KoD fight proves my point. Logain would have been as useless as all the females you mentioned, trying to throw fireballs and exhausting themselves killing 1 trolloc at a time, had he not started copying the death gate weave that Rand used. And that was just memory seepage. Now Rand has everything LTT knows, no channeling sickness, and the Zen attitude to use it calmly.

 

 

That was no mere memory leaks, for the first time in the series, LTT persona completely took over: "The One Power filled him, but in that moment of dizziness, Lews Therin had seized it away from him".

 

And of course Logain was copying the weaves LTT was using and the Asha'man were copying what they could.

 

Lightining, balls of fire: "Balls of fire struck them and exploding, EACH killing DOZENS".

 

The type of attacks LTT used against the 100,000 were similar to the ones used in Maradon.

 

Rand in this Age is greater than what he was in AoL. He would have to be to face TP wielding Ishamael, among others (possibly Shadar Haran, Fain or even Shai'tan).

[Kahsm]

See above. Btw, Naeff is a full fledged Asha'man.

 

So? full fledged Aes Sedai didn't know travelling, how to make ter'angreal or heartsone, or how to unravel weaves! Furthermore, any "full fledged" Asha'man has been channeling for two years max. They are experts and scholars of nothing. Wouldn't you be surprised if Naeff just stood coolly, not surprised or at awe in the least, given what Rand knows and how strong he is? Naeff is stunned seeing the most powerful channeler ever, push himself to the limit. When _every_ channeler at the BT is weaker and far less skilled, and most are significantly weaker, there's no way Naeff would have any concept of that level of skill/power.

 

So in response he makes an appropriate an understandable, hyperbolic statement to convey his awe.

 

I don't keep harping on this point, here it is though, Naeff: "I've NEVER seen so many weaves at once. I CAN'T TRACK THEM ALL".

 

The author's decription: "Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like AN ENTIRE ARMY OF CHANNELERS."

 

 

And if you want further explaination, see my previous post.

 

Thank God. Imagine if someone had said how lame Rand was! I bet you will like, yo Rand lost all the power yo!

 

 

Don't be so obtuse.

 

Btw, people can lose OP strength various ways (we know of two ways thus far: severed and healed by the opposite sex and the Snakes and Foxes draining).

 

 

At Maradon, Rand alone faced against an Army of Trollocs many times the size of the 100,000 that Rand and 20+ other channelers barely managed to defeat in KoD. Actually one half-man got through and nearly killed Rand.

 

KoD battle against 100,000:

 

Rand, his LTT persona has taken over = LTT of AoL.

Logain, "almost" as strong as Rand = Demandred, Aginor strength level.

According to Aes Sedai in Salidar, Logain's Power strength is immense: "if only five had being holding his shield, he might have".

Nyaneve with angreal = stronger to much stronger than Lanfear. Even without an angreal, Nynaeve is only behind Lanfear, Alivia, Cyndane, and Grandael in strength. Sharina has the potential to be stronger.

Cadusane with angreal = possibly as strong as Lanfear, also has 300 years of Power experience.

Alivia = possibly as strong as Lanfear, if not as at least as strong as Cyndane. Decribed as being "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve. Alivia has 400 years of experience BEING A WEAPON. She probalby knows more killing weaves than anyone else.

Narishma = he is a particularly strong Asha'man and so far the strongest after Rand and Logain among the males in that group.

 

And the many other channelers who were there.

 

Compare that to what Rand alone did in Maradon.

They barely managed to kill off the 100,000 and one got through to Rand. Rand at Maradon = massacred the Trolloc Army.

 

Really the KoD fight proves my point. Logain would have been as useless as all the females you mentioned, trying to throw fireballs and exhausting themselves killing 1 trolloc at a time, had he not started copying the death gate weave that Rand used. And that was just memory seepage. Now Rand has everything LTT knows, no channeling sickness, and the Zen attitude to use it calmly.

 

 

That was no mere memory leaks, for the first time in the series, LTT persona completely took over: "The One Power filled him, but in that moment of dizziness, Lews Therin had seized it away from him".

 

And of course Logain was copying the weaves LTT was using and the Asha'man were copying what they could.

 

Lightining, balls of fire: "Balls of fire struck them and exploding, EACH killing DOZENS".

 

The type of attacks LTT used against the 100,000 were similar to the ones used in Maradon.

 

Rand in this Age is greater than what he was in AoL. He would have to be to face TP wielding Ishamael, among others (possibly Shadar Haran, Fain or even Shai'tan).

 

He's got Callandor and two women to make him stronger, that's why it's in the prophecy. Some Deus Ex Machina with an unexplained origin added to the DR in this particular age, of this particular turning of the wheel, makes zero sense. Why didn't LTT have it?

 

Plus, we know that Moghedien, as the weakest forsaken, was an average strength channeler in the AoL, and yet she's a top-dog in this age minus a few. So comparing Rand to current-age channelers is moot. I just think you underestimate LTT.

 

Given the poor showing of the forsaken throughout the series, underestimating LTT is understandable. However, none of the forsaken have ever done anything like Maradon or the KoD fight. It's usually 1v1 stuff against other channelers which will really even the game. Moghedien v. Nynaeve for example was a pure battle of strength using mainly spirit weaves. No point in channeling a fireball if they can just slice it in half before you finish. Our male channelers seem to fight differently, but I think that's purely out of ignorance. Mogh was trying to instantly still Nynaeve, and Nynaeve seemed certain it would work if she hadn't sliced them before they hit, so that seems more effective.

 

So in the AoL, when you had channelers on both sides of the armies. I picture the channelers getting locked in their own 1v1 battles to incapacitate eachother while the armies fight a fairly normal melee battle. Once one side's channelers are decimated, and any wards are cleared away by the winning channelers, that army would be decimated just like Rand did at Maradon.

[Manscher]

Doubt Callandor is there to equalize the difference between Saidin and the True Power. There's something about wielding Light, he radiates light now. Before when he had wielded TP, he radiated darkness.

 

The Light he now channels is that balance, not Callandor. It was also present the very first time he fought off Ishamael who wielded the True Power.

[Entreri]

"He's got Callandor and two women to make him stronger, that's why it's in the prophecy. Some Deus Ex Machina with an unexplained origin added to the DR in this particular age, of this particular turning of the wheel, makes zero sense. Why didn't LTT have it?"

 

 

Callandor has another purpose, what that is, RAFO.

 

He actually wields the "Light" now, in opposition to Ishamael's TP.

 

EoTW, Ishamael: "You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. But I am the greater, now (TP)...But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know".

 

Keep in mind that even with Callandor, Rand barely managed to defeat Ishamael in TAR and this is when Shai'tan was still sealed up. While still a noob channeler at the time, he was instinctively harnessing knowledge of LTT.

 

By the time Rand confronts Ishaamael, likely Shai'tan will be as free as in AoL, what impact that will have on Ishamael's TP link will be interesting.

 

Grandael: "The voice of his (Ishamael)...it sounded, just faintly, like that of that of the Great Lord."

 

 

As for Moghdien, she was defeated by Nyaneve. Egwene did defeat Messana in TAR. These were face to face confrontation, with no balefire/equalizer. You are underestimating the capablities of current Age channelers, just like the Forsaken did.

[Kahsm]

The whole chapter isn't even Naeff's perspective, it's Ituralde's and he's not a channeler at all. His experiance comes down to his exhausted Asha'men who could barely do anything through most of the battle.

 

This is the ONLY input from Naeff:

The Asha'man Naeff - standing beside Bashere - gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

A storm of Light, and streams of Power. So his weaves were Power, which I think it's fair to assume the One Power. So he was absolutely channeling One Power. But he was also a storm of Light. Ituralde also mentions the following quotes in his mind:

 

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers.

An entire army of the exhausted Asha'man who barely did anything possibly?

 

The man himself seemed to be glowing. Was it the reflection of the swaths of fire, or perhaps the lightning blasts? Al'Thor seemed brighter than them all, his hand upraised against the Shadowspawn.

Even Ituralde questions where the light actually comes from, more so than even you seem to do.

 

But lets assume Rand glows while he's channeling. He does not channel Light, as explaiend by Naeff, he just glows while he channels the OP. So you instantly jump to the conclusion that this somehow is like a built-in sa'angreal? Maybe he didn't destroy it, but fused himself with the Choden Kal. At least that would explain how he got this power you claim he got and doesn't rely on some Deus Ex Machina thing the creator neglected to give previous Dragons despite the fact the Forsaken always had the TP.

 

But even so, is what he did REALLY that hard? Or does he just know how to be efficient via LTT.

 

Clouds of Draghkar spun in the sky, diving for al'Thor. The air above him turned blue, and shards of ice exploded outward, spraying the air like arrows from the bows of an entire banner of archers.

Afaik that's probably just a powerful tied off ward. Dragkhar comes close, they get blasted with ice arrows. Simple stuff. Are you assuming he weaves every single individual arrow that he throws wildly at the Dragkhar?

 

Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

Great for when they're standing in a line.

 

Blasts of thunder overpowered the sounds of drums as Trollocs tried in vain to get to al'Thor

...

There was an energy to the vary air itself

I'd guess these quotes refer to byproducts of the seeker lightning he used on Howal Gode and his cronies in TEotW and in the Stone to kill all the Trollocs off there. Where he mentions he felt like he could kill all the trollocs in the world. And given the lack of a cap on Callandor, maybe he could... and likely kill himself doing it. Long story short, one weave kills a lot of Trollocs instantly.

 

The swirling white clouds crashed into the black, boiling tempest, intermingling.

...

Clouds spinning about one another made funnels into the masses of Trollocs, sweeping across the top of the hill, taking up the creatures into the air.

Here are the fire tornadoes that seemed to do a majority of the killing near the back of the action. Weave them up, tie them off, and let them go.

 

Great waterspouts rose behind, made of flesh and fire. The beasts rained down, falling upon the others.

This is one of my favourites, using some trollocs' death to kill other trollocs. Efficient!

 

Waves of Trollocs broke, the drums faltering. Entire legions of them turned and fled, stumbling up the hillside and over one another, fleeing back towards the Blight.

At this point it's just a cleanup job.

 

The tempest of destruction seemed to come to a peak, flashes of light blasting down in time with howling wind, thrumming waves of burning flame, tinkling shards of ice. It was a masterwork. A terrible, destructive, wonderful masterwork.

And the pinnacle, from the perspective of a man who knows a well planned strategic maneuver when he sees one. Rand has his death gates at the front, the tempests and water spouts in the back throwing trollocs around, he's got his archer air defense setup. He _IS_ a 1 man army, but not so much because of his power, but his smarts in setting it all up to work together.

 

What would a green Ajah do? They'd throw fireballs until they got tired. Even Asha'man do the rolling rings of fire until they're tired. It's not even remotely at the same level of what Rand sets up in this scene. He creates a storm to get the wind gowing, and the lighting going, so that he doesn't have to create them from nothing. They all feed off each other. Ituralde describes how once everything's setup Rand cranks up the volume and then simply turns it off.

[XXX]

Asha'man also do that thing were their enemies just explode...without doubt the coolest battle move in all of WoT. Men in black just look at you are in just explode!!

[Ananta]

Rand also has that kickass weave that he used inside Stone of Tear that killed Shadowspawn only. Maybe he tied off some crazy trolloc killing weaves and it just looked like he made millions of weaves at once xD

[WhiskyJack]

9 more months to go, atleast. RAFO!

 

P.S: There is no such thing as LIGHT weaves. If channeling light purely means glowing, than may be that's what Rand was doing. If per chance, there is such a thing as Super TP (light based), how would Rand learn to channel it? Another divine knowledge that LTT never had? I personally associate all the light crap with him being Dragon/Tav'eren (trees growing, cloud parting...) and less to do with active channeling that can be used to create weaves. Light power in some way protects pattern. TP on the other hand can be used to actually create weaves.

[Entreri]

Trees growing, cloud parting does not happen to any other ta'avern.

 

Dragon Reborn is something else. Now did LTT have this kind of Power?

 

The kind of Power and skill he showed at Maradon (also the complete blinding and DF's going crazy), all the Forsaken would have easily died confronting him in AoL and none would ever dare to battle him one-on-one. Did LTT ever have that kind of enlightenment in AoL as Rand had in Dragonmount? Unlikely.

 

Ishamael has been upgraded by the DO, having full access to the TP, and thus at beginning of EotW he did said he is the greater now.

 

EotW: "Light filled him...Light filled his mind...the Light blinded his mind, stunned him with awe"

 

A few lines later the Creator speaks: "IT IS NOT HERE. It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

Ishamael: "You cannot wield it so, not yet. Not until I teach you!". That is an interesting comment by Ishamael.

[sleepinghour]

Plus, we know that Moghedien, as the weakest forsaken, was an average strength channeler in the AoL, and yet she's a top-dog in this age minus a few. So comparing Rand to current-age channelers is moot.

Moghedien's one of the weakest Forsaken, but by no means of average strength in the AoL. The Forsaken were all among the strongest of their time. The average female channeler was probably closer to Moiraine's level, if even that.

[Kahsm]

Asha'man also do that thing were their enemies just explode...without doubt the coolest battle move in all of WoT. Men in black just look at you are in just explode!!

Yeah, but that's not really a weave to use against an army. And if you're using a weave that kills 1 person in a battle like that, you're really just proving why Rand is so much better. AoE weaves are the only way to go when slaughtering mindless cannon fodder.

 

Rand also has that kickass weave that he used inside Stone of Tear that killed Shadowspawn only. Maybe he tied off some crazy trolloc killing weaves and it just looked like he made millions of weaves at once xD

I claimed that to be the seeker lighting. And while I used to think it was shadowspawn only lightning, when I reread TEotW, it seems to be the spell he uses to kill Howal Gode when he and his cronies had him cornered in a room in an inn. There's a flash of lightning and all the guys surrounding them are down, but he and mat are just fine. Mat is blinded for awhile though. So by not hitting him or mat by accident I figured it must be a similar spell to the one he uses on the trollocs in the Stone. Plus it would make sense that that's his "I'm really mad and frustrated I need to do something!" go-to spell. Maybe it's even his super wielder power (a la Verin's compulsion), the one that comes easiest because it's the first one he seriously learns. (Minus regenning Bela, moving the beam, and... I think there was another but forget).

 

Trees growing, cloud parting does not happen to any other ta'avern.

Fair enough, the prophecy does say "There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

 

Not entirely sure we know that it wasn't true for the Dragon as well. He may just have been more at-ease with himself and therefore it was less of an issue being tied to the land. But I take your point that it's possible this is particular to the DR. However, there's a prophecy that could explain it -- there's nothing for this built-in Light sa'angreal.

 

The kind of Power and skill he showed at Maradon (also the complete blinding and DF's going crazy), all the Forsaken would have easily died confronting him in AoL and none would ever dare to battle him one-on-one. Did LTT ever have that kind of enlightenment in AoL as Rand had in Dragonmount? Unlikely.

 

Ishamael has been upgraded by the DO, having full access to the TP, and thus at beginning of EotW he did said he is the greater now.

 

EotW: "Light filled him...Light filled his mind...the Light blinded his mind, stunned him with awe"

 

A few lines later the Creator speaks: "IT IS NOT HERE. It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

Ishamael: "You cannot wield it so, not yet. Not until I teach you!". That is an interesting comment by Ishamael.

It just means they wanted to turn LTT to the dark and give him the TP too. Your opinion that his demonstration at Maradon somehow proves he could kill all forsaken is just that, opinion. He wouldn't use any of the weaves at Maradon on other near-equal channelers. Those, as explained, are all AoE cannon fodder killing weaves. It would be a completely different fight against strong channelers. Hence why Rand is still scared to go to the BT himself.

 

Plus, we know that Moghedien, as the weakest forsaken, was an average strength channeler in the AoL, and yet she's a top-dog in this age minus a few. So comparing Rand to current-age channelers is moot.

Moghedien's one of the weakest Forsaken, but by no means of average strength in the AoL. The Forsaken were all among the strongest of their time. The average female channeler was probably closer to Moiraine's level, if even that.

Take it or leave it, I'm not going to look up the book quote because it's such a minor point, but I'll offer a counter-point to your evidence that she's not. While yes Moghedien is the weakest of the forsaken, and the forsaken were the 13 strongest of the shadow's channelers, that could just means weak channelers on average joined the shadow. Which makes sense, since they were offered power (and immortality ya ya).

[MasterAblar]

Asha'man also do that thing were their enemies just explode...without doubt the coolest battle move in all of WoT. Men in black just look at you are in just explode!!

Yeah, but that's not really a weave to use against an army. And if you're using a weave that kills 1 person in a battle like that, you're really just proving why Rand is so much better. AoE weaves are the only way to go when slaughtering mindless cannon fodder.

 

Rand also has that kickass weave that he used inside Stone of Tear that killed Shadowspawn only. Maybe he tied off some crazy trolloc killing weaves and it just looked like he made millions of weaves at once xD

I claimed that to be the seeker lighting. And while I used to think it was shadowspawn only lightning, when I reread TEotW, it seems to be the spell he uses to kill Howal Gode when he and his cronies had him cornered in a room in an inn. There's a flash of lightning and all the guys surrounding them are down, but he and mat are just fine. Mat is blinded for awhile though. So by not hitting him or mat by accident I figured it must be a similar spell to the one he uses on the trollocs in the Stone. Plus it would make sense that that's his "I'm really mad and frustrated I need to do something!" go-to spell. Maybe it's even his super wielder power (a la Verin's compulsion), the one that comes easiest because it's the first one he seriously learns. (Minus regenning Bela, moving the beam, and... I think there was another but forget).

 

Trees growing, cloud parting does not happen to any other ta'avern.

Fair enough, the prophecy does say "There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

 

Not entirely sure we know that it wasn't true for the Dragon as well. He may just have been more at-ease with himself and therefore it was less of an issue being tied to the land. But I take your point that it's possible this is particular to the DR. However, there's a prophecy that could explain it -- there's nothing for this built-in Light sa'angreal.

 

The kind of Power and skill he showed at Maradon (also the complete blinding and DF's going crazy), all the Forsaken would have easily died confronting him in AoL and none would ever dare to battle him one-on-one. Did LTT ever have that kind of enlightenment in AoL as Rand had in Dragonmount? Unlikely.

 

Ishamael has been upgraded by the DO, having full access to the TP, and thus at beginning of EotW he did said he is the greater now.

 

EotW: "Light filled him...Light filled his mind...the Light blinded his mind, stunned him with awe"

 

A few lines later the Creator speaks: "IT IS NOT HERE. It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

Ishamael: "You cannot wield it so, not yet. Not until I teach you!". That is an interesting comment by Ishamael.

It just means they wanted to turn LTT to the dark and give him the TP too. Your opinion that his demonstration at Maradon somehow proves he could kill all forsaken is just that, opinion. He wouldn't use any of the weaves at Maradon on other near-equal channelers. Those, as explained, are all AoE cannon fodder killing weaves. It would be a completely different fight against strong channelers. Hence why Rand is still scared to go to the BT himself.

 

Plus, we know that Moghedien, as the weakest forsaken, was an average strength channeler in the AoL, and yet she's a top-dog in this age minus a few. So comparing Rand to current-age channelers is moot.

Moghedien's one of the weakest Forsaken, but by no means of average strength in the AoL. The Forsaken were all among the strongest of their time. The average female channeler was probably closer to Moiraine's level, if even that.

Take it or leave it, I'm not going to look up the book quote because it's such a minor point, but I'll offer a counter-point to your evidence that she's not. While yes Moghedien is the weakest of the forsaken, and the forsaken were the 13 strongest of the shadow's channelers, that could just means weak channelers on average joined the shadow. Which makes sense, since they were offered power (and immortality ya ya).

 

Strength in the one power didn't necessarily mean you were of great influence in the AoL. Lanfear for example. And besides among the 13, 8 already had the third name. That didn't stop them from turning to the shadow.

 

Demandred, Aginor, Ishamael, Greandal, Lanfear are all amongst the strongest for their respective genders. Considering how they fared against Rand, Rahvin and Sammael certainly aren't weak either. It's hard to place Balthamel and Bel'al but we know that Asmodean was weakest of the men and he was a match for Rand at the end of tSR, which already places him quite high.

Semirhage is supposed to be about as strong as Nyneave, so again very strong. Mesaana claims to match up well with Semirhage, so even if she is a little dishonest with herself she can't be far. And Moghedien was a match for Nyneave at the end of tSR, and at that point Nyneave was already stronger than any aes sedai out there.

[Kahsm]

Strength in the one power didn't necessarily mean you were of great influence in the AoL. Lanfear for example. And besides among the 13, 8 already had the third name. That didn't stop them from turning to the shadow.

 

Demandred, Aginor, Ishamael, Greandal, Lanfear are all amongst the strongest for their respective genders. Considering how they fared against Rand, Rahvin and Sammael certainly aren't weak either. It's hard to place Balthamel and Bel'al but we know that Asmodean was weakest of the men and he was a match for Rand at the end of tSR, which already places him quite high.

Semirhage is supposed to be about as strong as Nyneave, so again very strong. Mesaana claims to match up well with Semirhage, so even if she is a little dishonest with herself she can't be far. And Moghedien was a match for Nyneave at the end of tSR, and at that point Nyneave was already stronger than any aes sedai out there.

 

You're right, if the forsaken were purely chosen from OP strength, there probably wouldn't be any women (because men are typically stronger). But Moghedian is also supposed to be the best in tel'aran'rhiod, which may have given her a boost in the DO's eyes.

 

I'm not saying she's not strong. I'm saying that AoL channelers were, on average, much stronger than current-age channelers.

[sleepinghour]

Take it or leave it, I'm not going to look up the book quote because it's such a minor point, but I'll offer a counter-point to your evidence that she's not. While yes Moghedien is the weakest of the forsaken, and the forsaken were the 13 strongest of the shadow's channelers, that could just means weak channelers on average joined the shadow. Which makes sense, since they were offered power (and immortality ya ya).

The BWB says of the Age of Legends:

 

Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, only two to three percent of the population could channel. Most of them were fairly weak, but the few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous. The talent was split equally among men and women, with men being stronger in general than women in the use of the Power, though individual strength did not matter greatly, as most Aes Sedai worked in teams.

It wouldn't surprise me if most Black sisters are in fact weaker than average, as the Tower's current system affords weaker channelers a lower status and no chance of ever climbing the ranks. That's bound to leave some of them feeling bitter and seeking other ways to gain power. But the AoL Aes Sedai clearly put much less value on strength and never even gave Lanfear a coveted third name.

 

Graendal thinks in PoD that even in her own Age, people stronger than she had been "uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women." That and numerous other quotes clearly tell us that the Forsaken were among the strongest of all channelers, even the weakest of them. Moghedien can't be that far below Graendal on RJ's 21 point scale; that would leave no room for Sorilea and middling Aes Sedai. I agree that current day Aes Sedai are definitely weaker than in the AoL, just not THAT much weaker. I would even revise my statement that Moiraine's strength was probably the average strength; it may have been even lower than that.

[Kahsm]

Take it or leave it, I'm not going to look up the book quote because it's such a minor point, but I'll offer a counter-point to your evidence that she's not. While yes Moghedien is the weakest of the forsaken, and the forsaken were the 13 strongest of the shadow's channelers, that could just means weak channelers on average joined the shadow. Which makes sense, since they were offered power (and immortality ya ya).

The BWB says of the Age of Legends:

 

Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, only two to three percent of the population could channel. Most of them were fairly weak, but the few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous. The talent was split equally among men and women, with men being stronger in general than women in the use of the Power, though individual strength did not matter greatly, as most Aes Sedai worked in teams.

It wouldn't surprise me if most Black sisters are in fact weaker than average, as the Tower's current system affords weaker channelers a lower status and no chance of ever climbing the ranks. That's bound to leave some of them feeling bitter and seeking other ways to gain power. But the AoL Aes Sedai clearly put much less value on strength and never even gave Lanfear a coveted third name.

 

Graendal thinks in PoD that even in her own Age, people stronger than she had been "uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women." That and numerous other quotes clearly tell us that the Forsaken were among the strongest of all channelers, even the weakest of them. Moghedien can't be that far below Graendal on RJ's 21 point scale; that would leave no room for Sorilea and middling Aes Sedai. I agree that current day Aes Sedai are definitely weaker than in the AoL, just not THAT much weaker. I would even revise my statement that Moiraine's strength was probably the average strength; it may have been even lower than that.

 

I can agree with that, as I said it was a fairly minor point overall. I'm a little sad we got hung up on this over my lovely detail of Rand's battle QQ.

 

Although, despite what the BWB says, and it might be true for Aes Sedai, but the Forsaken clearly have a hangup on power. Don't like to talk about it directly, have their secret angreals and such. The ones who joined the shadow likely did have a power hangup. I mean Power is one of the things he offers...

[WhiskyJack]

Trees growing, cloud parting does not happen to any other ta'avern.

 

 

I don't remember saying anything about that. Land is one with Dragon.

Dragon Reborn is something else. Now did LTT have this kind of Power?

 

Well I don't know what Lord of of the Morning did or didn't but do you?

The kind of Power and skill he showed at Maradon (also the complete blinding and DF's going crazy), all the Forsaken would have easily died confronting him in AoL and none would ever dare to battle him one-on-one.

 

Did LTT ever have that kind of enlightenment in AoL as Rand had in Dragonmount? Unlikely.

 

Well for first half, I am sorry if I cannot comment on something you would just like to believe. It;s not in the book and I rather not comment on guesswork.

 

As for second part, no LTT didn't not have that kind of moment in AoL, perhaps. But as I recall, the end result of that enlightenment was Rand integrating LTT's memory in his mind? Are you saying that LTT needed to integrate his own memory?

 

Ishamael has been upgraded by the DO, having full access to the TP, and thus at beginning of EotW he did said he is the greater now.

 

Upgraded? You mean he can wield TP? That's an upgrade? Because he said so? Alright.

 

EotW: "Light filled him...Light filled his mind...the Light blinded his mind, stunned him with awe"

 

Yeh, thats called reaching out to the true source and grabbing as much as you can. There are like 2 page describing the effect. The light is OP.

"Suddenly he felt something, saw it, though he knew it was not there to see. A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith’s arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand’s hand. The rope pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and strong as himself, a man harder than the Warder, more deadly than the Blight. Yet beside that shining cord, the Forsaken seemed almost not to exist. The cord was all. It hummed. It sang. It called Rand’s soul. One bright finger-strand lifted away, drifted, touched him, and he gasped. Light filled him, and heat that should have burned yet only warmed as if it took the chill of the grave from his bones. The strand thickened. I have to get away!

"Rand pulsed with the beating in the cord, like the heartbeat of the world. It filled his being. Light filled his mind, till only a corner was left for what was himself. He wrapped the void around that nook; sheltered in emptiness."

 

I can give various other paragraphs. This is JUST OP. Author is merely describing the effect of grabbing OP through the eye of a first timer.

 

 

A few lines later the Creator speaks: "IT IS NOT HERE. It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

After he channels and kills trollocs.

 

Ishamael: "You cannot wield it so, not yet. Not until I teach you!". That is an interesting comment by Ishamael.

 

Simply alluding to the fact that Rand had almost never ever channeled before and yet we has handling enough power to burn even Aginor. Otherwise, are you saying that Ishameal could have taught Rand to channel LIGHT? Also, how many times it is said that Rand used OP to make a sword of LIGHT, the one he used many times against shadowspawn?

[Manscher]

Brandon said it was important that Rand channeled Light and power as he did at the Eye of The World. So something there is something special about that, no matter how much you try to ignore it or degrade it.

 

As for Ishamael and being "upgraded", it's not an upgrade because Ishamael thinks so, it's an upgrade because it's a fact. True Power is far more destructive then either Saidin or Saidar. The downside is that you more or less go insane using it, which Ishamael doesn't really seem to care about.

[WhiskyJack]

Brandon said it was important that Rand channeled Light and power as he did at the Eye of The World. So something there is something special about that, no matter how much you try to ignore it or degrade it.

 

I will ask again and again since people have tendency to ignore simple things. What happens when you channel LIGHT? What LIGHT weaves have we seen yet? Who taught Rand to channel LIGHT? I am assuming that LTT didn't channel LIGHT. Just answer that. Thank you. I will await your answer. Please don't bother to just extend this argument if you have nothing to say over my questions.

 

As for Ishamael and being "upgraded", it's not an upgrade because Ishamael thinks so, it's an upgrade because it's a fact. True Power is far more destructive then either Saidin or Saidar. The downside is that you more or less go insane using it, which Ishamael doesn't really seem to care about.

 

Are you saying if there was war of pure strength (like one between Nyn and spider), TP will win since it's more destructive? I read the prologue of tEotW few weeks back and LTT never gave the impression that he was afraid of TP wielding Ishamel, Ishamel's later claim notwithstanding. Or by destructive you mean it can blow more things than OP? How would that help when two channelers are squaring off against each other?

[sleepinghour]

I can agree with that, as I said it was a fairly minor point overall. I'm a little sad we got hung up on this over my lovely detail of Rand's battle QQ.

Yeah, I don't want to jump on minor details, it was just something I thought was an interesting topic. Since the Forsaken were among the strongest and most talented channelers even in the Age of Legends, that gives us some idea of what the limits are for a channeler without special Dragon powers.

 

I personally wouldn't want to see Rand too powered up, as that would make things too easy and remove much of the suspense. For the Last Battle, I want to see blood, sweat, and tears, not deus ex machina powers. I have to agree, though, that it seems like Rand has gained some sort of unique powers, as well as now making full use of 400+ years of experience with channeling. Like the quote from BWB said: "The few who had great strength could perform feats that now seem miraculous." Which could explain much of what happened at Maradon, but not what Nynaeve saw in his mind or Aviendha's peculiar kids.

[Kahsm]

Brandon said it was important that Rand channeled Light and power as he did at the Eye of The World. So something there is something special about that, no matter how much you try to ignore it or degrade it.

 

It never says he channeled light, it says he was glowing and there's a few references to him being lit up. I quoted them and will do so again!

 

The Asha'man Naeff - standing beside Bashere - gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

Naeff even says he sees the weaves, so they are OP (though he can't tell exactly what Rand is doing cause he's slow compared to Zen Rand). Naeff is ONLY commenting on how epic it is to watch a guy channel who is orders of magnitude stronger, faster, and more agile. It's like if you were a fervent golfer. And then you played 1 on 1 with Tiger Woods (pre sex scandal), and his stroke was just a jaw dropping piece of mastery. But others who don't play golf just see two guys smacking a ball around. Naeff is not a OP scholar, he doesn't know what "channeling light" is or would be or would look like.

 

The other references are from Ituralde:

1. Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers.

2. The man himself seemed to be glowing. Was it the reflection of the swaths of fire, or perhaps the lightning blasts? Al'Thor seemed brighter than them all, his hand upraised against the Shadowspawn.

So Ituralde can't see the weaves, so all he sees is Rand standing there with his arm up, glowing. Which _IS_ special because male channelers don't usually glow. But we can be fairly sure given Rand's staring-down-DFs power that the glow was what made the DF tear out his eyes. Not necessarily the glow, but what the glow represented that was emanating from the DR. Which makes the Light important (as Sanderson said). But not necessarily related to Rand's channeling strength. It's just something else.

 

And here are the TWO (the second is rarely quoted) Sanderson responses to questions about Light & Power:

Q: Interesting. In EotW, Rand uses Light & Power. Is it significant that he uses Light & Power again in ToM?

Brandon

A: Yes.

Jeff Edde on Twitter - 12 January 2011

Q: Can Rand channel Light & Power as a result of touching the EotW, or does he have access to it because he is who he is?

Brandon

A: It was the power in the Eye, so far as I know.

 

So the first question, the one you referred to originally, doesn't mention channeling at all. It says Rand USES Light & Power. Which I explained I think. He channels the OP and then he has his DF/Shadowspawn(maybe) messing-up power setting turned to HIGH while he channels.

 

Now you'll be like AAHA! The second quote says, "Channeled Light & Power"! Though we know Naeff can see and recognizes OP weaving at Maradon, so I'd say "Channeling" is used loosely to fit the 140 character twitter limit. Also, the question doesn't ask if he was doing it, it asks where he got the power from. Sanderson does not confirm that he was actively channeling or creating weaves with anything but the OP. If anyone has a copy of TEotW handy and can find the Power & Light quote from that scene, that might shed some more "Light" (hahaha!).

 

My new speculation I more than welcome challenge on:

 

The second one asks about the source of the Light and Power, and Sanderson believes it's a power in the TEotW. Which obviously begs the question, why couldn't he stare down DFs before enlightenment? I would suggest he could (after he used TEotW), but he didn't know that until he had LTT's full memories, which means LTT likely did have this power, or could create it. The Eye was created after LTT went mad though, so you may argue he wasn't sane enough to absorb that knowledge. Though maybe he helped design the idea of the EYE before he went crazy, and so when LTT memories mix with Rand memories, Rand knew what the eye could do, beyond just a well of pure saidin.

 

Interesting to think his DF staring-down power people attribute to being CoL might actually be a creation of the AoL Aes Sedai.

 

Edit: Further info from RJ on TEotW

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 23 January 2003, Washington DC Borders Books and Music - Soni reporting

 

Soni: So the Eye of the World is a well, right?

RJ: [pauses] Yes and no. It's in the same class of objects as a well, but on a different scale.

Soni: So could it be refilled by a male channeler?

RJ: No. Remember, lots of Aes Sedai died to make it.

Soni: To keep it pure.

RJ: That, among other things. Look, a normal well is like this water glass. [he gestures] The Eye is like a liquid nitrogen canister.

Soni: So are wells made with the opposite half of the power that they were meant to contain, like Rand did at Shadar Logoth.

RJ: [sly smile] No, they don't work like that.

 

I thought I had heard TEotW will refill by itself somewhere and thought maybe Rand had a connection to it permanently and just used it again at Maradon to channel "longer", but that doesn't seem possible, unless he killed a bunch of Aes Sedai off screen to fill it up again.

 

(But see I am open to be flexible on my opinion if the evidence arises!)

[Finnssss22]

As early as tFoH, in his battle at the Docks with Lanfear, Rand states that he can handle 10 flows at once quite easily and that's without letting "LTT" take over.

That was still pretty early in his Channeling life and still being trained by Asmo.

 

Now, he has all the knowledge and capabilities of the most powerful and highest acclaimed channeler in history.

Is it truly unreasonable to think that him handling and/or splitting over 20, upwards of 30 flows at once to be well within his ability?

[WhiskyJack]

We will find out in next book .

[Elan Tedronai]

rand aka lews therin is a just a man. Not a God. The nature of the power in the series comes with limits. If the greatest aes sedai of the last age thinks a circle of 13 can shield any man then that's what is. No amount of enlightment or a eureka moment can change that.

 

as for the battle of maradon i can't believe people are making a huge issue out of it.

 

rand now has the enviable possession of memories of a 400 year old aes sedai with thousands ways to kill and maim shadowsspawn. He simply tapped into that. But even that huge display of power has limits and we all saw what happened when finished killing the darkies.

[Thor]

Remember in the AoL when male channelers went crazy, each of them were able to destroy entire cities single handedly.