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 A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

Pralaya

By Pralaya
in The Black Tower

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Nolder Spam Master

Nolder

Posted
Posted

Cory/Xander: You guys are being dumb. I've done nothing but try to reign Xander in this entire time right along side you.

 

Hell I've done nothing but cheerlead my own lynch all day.

 

Forget it I don't need to put up with this crap while I'm trying to help keep cohesion.

Do it yourselves I'm out.

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Zander? Spam Master

Zander?

Posted
Posted

Cory/Xander: You guys are being dumb. I've done nothing but try to reign Xander in this entire time right along side you.

 

Hell I've done nothing but cheerlead my own lynch all day.

 

Forget it I don't need to put up with this crap while I'm trying to help keep cohesion.

Do it yourselves I'm out.

 

WTF how ami being dumb cause Im sussing someone else?

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Zander? Spam Master

Zander?

Posted
Posted

Zander if you ignore my read to pursue your vendetta when we have another night to calibrate later you are literally going to break my heart.

 

 

Cory ive taken many deep breathes ok Im calm cool and collected now ok....I promise.

 

Just please talk to be about Dice...I wont break your heart if you just WORK with me to help me understand what it is you feel im missing,

 

Listen brother I really honestly dont think Im being unreasonable here.

 

Talk to me show me why Im wrong and thats that man.

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Sooh Spam Master

Sooh

Posted
Posted

the lack of a strong read made me start here last night

 

Dice

 

Town

 

TLDR: Dice has had a pretty strong End of Day and even during the beginning of day when he wasn't having the same impact I was looking for he was still using the mechanics discussion to inform reads. Tonal shift during the game, feels more relaxed and less grumpy now.

 

I haven't mentioned the one thing that bugs me, as its game speculation more than anything else and frankly his end of day is starting to rule out that possibility anyway.

 

 

 

 

In ISO; He got into a lot of circular arguments and I'm not sure why, he got into an early argument with Zander because Zander interpreted his use of the word 'happy' to mean alignment and then went on to say that he didn't say it, but he hasn't seen it when Cory's been mafia (Cory used poems and stuff in US, which Dice technically played, but barely posted in so may have forgotten). Votes Zander for it, there's no build up to the vote which is something I associate more with Town! Dice, the annoyance feels real, but isn't always alignment indicative for Dice.

 

It's tricky, i know that as town I've used happy to indicate a alignment independent emotion and an alignment indicative emotion in the same post and been surprised when people didn't realise the difference, so I can understand Dice's opinion here.

 

He then got into the night time mechanics discussion with Lenlo. At the risk of bringing it up again :dry: I still don't know where Dice is getting his numbers from, but it doesn't really matter (even though it's killing my mathematical soul). When asked why keeping track of who people would night lynch he says it's a bad idea because it probably means more townies dying, which ignores the question of why the second VC is a bad idea, regardless of the outcome, and also that the second lynch is going to happen regardless and also that town controlled deaths are almost always town beneficial, even if they hit town ( :dry: TG), votes Lenlo for not reading Dice's posts, yet at this stage they're either talking at cross purposes or Dice's numbers are off. Says Lenlo's tone is off.

 

Agrees with Lenlo that Pizzas posts are shorter but says Lenlo should make up his mind as he was complaining about it last time

 

Says I'm town, not sure why or if serious (pretty sure at this point I haven't done the things he associates with Town!BFG

 

Thinks Cory is town, but concerned he's not taking charge despite saying he would. Says Cory reads him very well, yet doesn't address Cory's null-mafia wish-washy read on him, likes Cory's town-building with me

 

Unvotes Lenlo as he thinks he's being too 'thick' to be mafia

 

Would shoot Nolder (assuming this is a joke) or Tina, only mention of her so far is that he wants to see more. Hasn't seen Town! Tina, but she hasn't been here much.

 

Is waiting on Pizza saying back and forth with Lenlo is a test or not?

 

Votes Zander (joke), unvotes

 

Likes Nikon - probably my favourite post from him all game. It's against consensus and has good reasoning, a log of Nikon's thoughts, questions are things that somebody not in the last few games wouldn't know about. The only thing I'd add is that its concerning that Nikon basically posted thoughts basically up to the point at which he first entered the thread and is still 50-60 pages behind with no indication of when he's going to catch up.

 

Bunch of fluff, feels better tempered now

 

Love the confidence he has that I can ISO him and come up town XD

 

Votes Tina

 

Good posts on Pizza (maybe hindsight bias here, but the approach with people reads well

 

 

 

I'd like to know what this was. If nothing else then just to humor Zander.

 

 

 

BFG if I put a gun to your head and asked you what dice's alignment was, what would you tell me

 

Don't worry I don't own a gun

town mafia town mafia town mafia

 

I don't hate his confrontational attitude, but I disagree with almost all his points. I don't like how long he got bogged down in mechanics talk, and his votes seem mostly grumpy.

 

Gun to head I'd take the bullet and say I'm still watching. I don't have him as solid town yet and that's the best I can say.

 

I like this post on Dice. Like Cory said about town struggling to make reads. I feel like as a scumbag she would have ended up one way or the other on him here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zander, excluding the alt game we literally haven't towned together since April Fools... what's your approach as town, do you read people as a whole or on an individual post basis?

 

 

I find this question a little pointless because regardless of the fact if we've towned together, you've just seen how I Town in Nightmare but I will still certainly answer your question my dear.

 

WRECK THE WOLVES LIVES....HARD

 

I tend to use Meta as large part of my reads.  I will read things as a whole; but can change if something pings me (ie EoD in Nightmare for you and AJ  :wink: )  But I'll be honest and others will prolly mention it as well (im pretty sure Cory already did this game).  I find strange things that set me off on people that most people, dont notice or doesn't make sense to them. But it certainly does work.

 

Let me know if theres anything else youre looking for BFG!!!!!

 

I don't understand you as a player and have misread you in pretty much every game I've been town in. I also don't really take meta from games I'm mafia in as I read the game differently.

 

Ok, your argument with Sooh where you talk about her being worried about you, Cory, Pizza over Besie, hence shouldn't she be blocking you guys... in her reads she has you and Cory as town so why would she want to block you? Pizza would be valid, maybe. Hence wondering if you read on a post by post basis as the argument seems theoretical rather than grounded in this game.

 

 

Blocking?????  What????? I don't get it???!!

 

The point I was making was that Sooh said something like Besie using her cunning to deceive or hurt Town something like that as part of her reason for sussing Besie.  I said it was strange that using that argument she chose to use it against Besie as opposed to me or Cory or Pizza who have deceived Town as Scum and wrecked it. (ie Matrix for me and Cory). 

 

And as far as Meta I think I proved that with Tab in Nightmare its a pretty effective tool for hunting Scum imo.

 

??? I have no problem using meta and use it myself

 

As I read it Sooh said that she'd block Besie as she has the potential to be cunning as mafia

You asked why not you, Cory or Pizza instead of Besie, all of whom can be cunning.

Sooh said something like why wouldn't Bessie be cunning

 

And the conversation sort of derailed from there.

 

The point is that Sooh is town reading you and Cory, so regardless of how cunning you can be, she's unlikely to choose to block you, a town read.

 

So asking why she wouldn't block you (and Cory) seems theoretical as the answer should be obvious. Pizza is excluded from this, as she's got him in orange as well.

 

I like how she's trying to explain to Zander here. They had a whole discussion on the subject. 

 

Throughout she asks a ton of good questions to people. Asks for clarification and follows up on her questions. 

 

Her reads prior to ISOs:

 

 

Ok I'm delving into ISOs tonight. Extended family gathering tomorrow so I won't be around during the day, but will be around before deadline.

 

Before ISO's I can't say I'm that different to the consensus

 

Zander

Lenlo

Sooh

 

Cory

Besie

 

Dice

Nolder

 

Nikon

Shad

Tina

Pizza

 

Groups are only vaguely ordered.

 

Zander seems inquisitive this game, isn't focusing in one place too much

 

Sooh's difficult to explain, I haven't disagreed with any of her reads this game, or positions in thread.

 

Lenlo is mostly his response to pressure and his mechanics thoughts.

 

 

 

Cory is difficult. He hasn't hit any of the reliable tells I have for his mafia game, there are a few points of minor concern - his lack of read on Besie is one, the lack of follow through with a reread is another. In general I feel he's cruising in his 70% range which is both town and mafia for him, I agree with most of his posts and reads. Need him to ramp it up to 90+ to be more confident and not tinfoil.

 

Besie isn't pinging me this game like Diablo. She's acting differently, but I don't know that's her town game and there are very very minor things I disagree with /shrug

 

 

 

Nolder seems pretty relaxed so far, mostly waiting for more from him.

 

Dice I feel I should have a stronger opinion of him, I remember feeling better about him, but can't remember why and this is a pretty major concern.

 

 

 

Bottom 4 has a large element of POE about them, and less reason to feel 'good'

 

Nikon is almost completely null and here by POE. His 'catch up' seems focused on things that don't seem important to me, but I have knowledge of previous games he doesn't have. His catch-up didn't take him much past his first posts so I don't know why he couldn't have posted that much from the start. Desperately need him to start playing.

 

Shad I'm having a hard time remembering his stances, I get being busy in RL, but that doesn't stop him being mafia either. He's made a few observations I like, but there's something missing. His recent post about voting Pizza and if Pizza dies he'll kill Shad as well, while he's voting Nolder seems all sort of off. I like his position on Sooh

 

Tina is interesting, she's not addressing Cory, I remember in past games where Tina's been town and Cory mafia she's pretty much blackmailed him into reading her correctly and this game she seems more passive. Cory's unvote was 'odd'. Her initial posts were very focused, since then she's broadened a bit, but I'm left a bit /meh

 

Pizza is always going to be the same things; he seems more surface level this game, he hasn't handled multiple suspects, his reads aren't as well explained. BUT he's more aggressive than, say, Middle Earth, he's excusing differences in his mafia game, which is something he did that game and I don't remember from his town games. I will try to do a real meta search here, but that will come after ISO's from this game.

 

 

This doesn't feel right at this point, but I'm not sure why.

 

Odd things that probably aren't important

 

Pizza and Cory are both reading Besie conditionally on Zanders read of her.

 

Cory's unvote of Tina was really interesting timing, although I'm not sure what to make of that right now

 

 

 

They read genuine and not pushing any sort of agenda.

 

 

 

 

Tina

 

null-mafia

 

TLDR: Ugh, the worst thing is the vote thing that Pizza brought up, but given her recognition of voting 'patterns' early game I'm wondering if it's more likely to be subconscious from town rather than from mafia. She's done 'work' for herself, not under pressure. But I'm not seeing sustained interest in solving yet. she's not spending time in thread talking to people (but I don't remember this from PF either, so it's not necessarily scummy). Her responses to people seem fine, but generally /meh I don't have the experience to know if she ramps up or not in later phases and know that she's been lynched Day 1 as town before and sussed, if not lynched as mafia day 1. No idea which this is.

 

And as much as I hate to say it, there are people I feel significantly better about than Tina, and that plays into this read

 

 

 

Can't remember a lot from her and sort of feel she's been POE'd into being suspicious rather than anything else. Possibly odd approach to Cory.

 

 

Votes Dice (joke) seems relaxed on thread early. Happy to be playing, but wary of the catch-up involved (I don't think this ever gets mentioned again which is a slight bonus)

 

On reread I like her post on Lenlo, I like that she's looking at his actions and not jumping on the mechanics talk with the rest of us. I also don't hate the early read on Dice, or the way it's given.

 

Responds to Cory directly saying he's wrong and she'll probe it (hopefully)

 

Doesn't like Pizzas comment about her given that he followed her onto Lenlo...

 

Doesn't understand Shad's comment about no NK? And I'm pretty sure she follows this up a couple of times

 

Responds to Lenlo and holds her position

 

I need to look at this with context on reread (which probably won't happen before deadline). She responds to someone asking why 'Lenlo pushing Dice as a suspect without voting' would be scummy with 'because she's seen mafia do that. That's an obvious reply that I love and will make me look sideways at whoever asked it. She doesn't like Pizza's tunnel.

 

From that initial list she seems to have Zander as town, Cory as maybe town, Dice as town, uneasy about Sooh and everyone else is some sort of null, unsure, need to ISO.

 

ISO's Sooh and doesn't like that she's null on so many players, this is consistent with her reasoning for not liking me this game  :unsure:

 

ISO's Besie and doesn't like how she's going with the flow

 

Leaves me in my own category XD

 

Nolder's null

 

There's the unvote off Lenlo, while finding Soon scummy and not having looked further into Lenlo/Pizza which reads oddly. It's a little WIFOMy but given Tina's preoccupation with votes and nudges early game, I think she'd be more self aware if mafia, but I don't think I'd be happy to clear her for this.

 

There are a number of people who seem to be reading Tina based off how she 'normally' reads them, I don't know what to make of this, part of me is doing the same wrt how she's acting towards Cory, but I don't really like the argument.

 

Znder reacts to her post on me and Besie saying there are people he thinks are scummier. I didn't really understand this at the time and I don't now, especially given that he 'likes' Nolder list for lack of consensus  :unsure:

 

Shad feels into the game and not trying to 'make' things scummy, leans town

 

Still hasn't read Lenlo-Pizza

 

Concludes:

 

Town: Tina, Cory, Sander, Dice (from early posts)

Null-town: Shad

Null: Nikon, BFG, Nolder

Null-mafia: Besie

Mafia: Sooh, Lenlo, Pizza

 

Given she still hasn't re-read Pizza/Lenlo I'm not sure how to feel about her putting them in her worst category.

 

"Right now I think Lenlo's posts are more scummy and Pizza's behaviour is more scummy" don't hate this though.

 

Responds to Lenlo expanding on her thoughts on him and Lenlo. Doesn't understand Pizza's reasoning on her, sort of understands his thoughts on Shad.

 

Votes Pizza for bad reasoning on her

 

Asks Sooh if her vote on Tina is OMGUS?

 

She responds to my 'list' sort of neutrally. My reasons for Tina being at the bottom are fairly poor and I'd expect a more argumentative response to it. I can't say it's meta based off one game, but the reasons for lynching her in PF were awful-none existent (with hindsight) and I'm not seeing that same response here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like as many people as possible to do the following for me:

 

In order from likeliest town -> scum list the follow four players:

 

Tina

Nikon

Shad

Pizza

Tina

Shad/Nikon

Pizza

 

Tina can you explain the positioning of Shad/Nikon on this list?

 

Sooh (in particular) and Dice can you explain/expand your reasons for voting Tina here. Dice, what's missing? Sooh I genuinely can't remember your reason for voting :/

 

 

Her thoughts on Tina after an ISO. I think this reads genuine and villager struggling.

 

 

Nolder can I ask why you're so concerned with 'deep wolves' this game?

 

I feel like this discussion should be highlighted, just in case.

 

Her take on Besie's lists:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We can look at Nolder.

 

Besides him idk. 

 

Rare possibility it's Dice or Lenlo I guess.

 

Dice is spewed clear from Tina for several reasons, IIRC. First and foremost he doesn't try to talk me into trusting my read on Tina instead of pursuing Pizza d1. Several times he tried to convince into trusting that read.

 

Tina's first thing was a relatively wordy case on Lenlo over somewhat inane things that was the first real pressure on him. Tina doesn't push a wolfbro like that without a more severe impetus.

 

~Never Dice and Bessie pushed Lenlo early as well

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/96361-worlds-end-mafia-d2-the-famous-cock/?view=findpost&p=3582544

 

 

 

I thought I noticed i slight "tell" from Besie concerning Len.....i could be completely wrong and Ill look for it but ONLY obv if Shad doesnt flip Scum.

 

Bessie's early reads list are all weird Tbh.

 

She soft defends Lenlo against the night mechanic discussion then doesn't like his interaction with Dice, while also not liking Dice or Pizza or Sooh.

 

Her groups roughly seem to be

 

Lenlo

Sooh, Dice

Pizza

Nikon, Nolder, Shad

Cory, BFG, Tina

Zander

 

She votes Lenlo as well, I have no idea if shed hard bus knowing how much Lenlo dislikes it /shrug

 

Enough people were town reading Lenlo from it that I don't think it was needed.

 

Additionally, I can't say I understand Pizza's methods, but they seem to work and he's very confident Lenlo's town.

 

Final mafia in her nulls. Shad seems most likely based on his reaction today. Might be worth checking AOL to see how he reacts as town under pressure. He wasn't much interested in defending himself in Grimm, but that game had a weird dynamic from the mafia team, I don't think they worked well together :/

 

 

First reads...

Lenlo

Sooh, Dice

Pizza 

Nikon, Nolder, Shad

Cory, BFG, Tina

Zander

 

Second reads...

Pizza

Nikon, Sooh, Dice 

Tina

Cory, Nolder

BFG, Lenlo, Shad

Zander

 

Not sure what this means for Nikon, between this and her previous list Nikon hadn't posted again.

 

At a guess I'd say town?

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's what I take from reading BFG. I could have picked a number of other posts as well, but this is the ones I think are the most towny.

 

What is possibly more important is that I haven't found any scummy posts.

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