[Advanced] The Usual Suspects Mafia - GAME OVER - COPS WIN

[Andrej]

 

 

I dont back down and i dont care how that makes me look. 

 

Townie Zander post imo.

 

This is why anyone that was in or read the Belicheat game isn't giving Zander the slack he once enjoyed:

 

I don't back off of something when I think I'm right and I TRULY believe that I am right here.

 

Wolf Zander is clearly aware of his Town meta and isn't afraid to use it.

 

Ok - fair enough, I guess I'm still one of those suckers. I just wanna believe in Zander, you know? Looking at Razen's ISO sort of reinforces my feelings regarding him.

 

Also a good look for Razen, I think his way of evaluating Zander/Kivish and the analysis. Probably one of my stronger townie reads atm.

[Andrej]

 

I know people just ran with it

 

Wolves like to run

[Kivam]

If I had to say, I would have

 

Sili, CorKey, Yates, and Nyce down as my townies for the moment

 

Townish/Null would be: AJ, Raz, ClovFG

 

Null: Most everyone else

 

Scummy: Kivish

 

Posts a reads list without explanation. @Hally - you've already given reasons for voting me ... but what was the basis of the rest of the reads?

[Kivam]

So...for how long this game is, it's actually kind of light in content for the first few pages.  Made what I was looking for easy.  Because I didn't find it - Hallia's the only one really pushing the point that I thought I was looking for.  But what I did notice when Hallia made her point was this:

 

 

Between the Kiv sass and Mish's defensiveness, that is the way to go for now until I see anything better.

 

 

Vote: Kiv/Mish

+1

 

Laine's +1 sticks out.  Egging it along, but not committing to the push.

 

 

Between the Kiv sass and Mish's defensiveness, that is the way to go for now until I see anything better.

 

 

Vote: Kiv/Mish

 

 

 

Between the Kiv sass and Mish's defensiveness, that is the way to go for now until I see anything better.

 

 

Vote: Kiv/Mish

+1

 

 

i dont mind this at all atp.  wanna see more from them before id place a vote there.

 

And Zander doing the same thing.

 

Difference between the two, Zander commits to a vote on Kivam/Mish later on in the thread.  He piggybacks Sili to do so, but he has a reason.  Laine just seems to be egging it on, but not really wanting to commit to it herself.  Her vote's also been parked on Nolder and Darthe for a while.  It leads me to believe that she hasn't left the lynch all hydras thing.  If I recall, it's why people were pushing Kivam because Laine's was game related and his wasn't.  But Kiv/Mish have progressed beyond that, while Laine hasn't yet.  Which given that we're now into the content-phase of Day 1 is somewhat alarming.

 

This is a good point from Razen, who seems to have a lot of them. Interested to see how long it took after this post for Laine to lay her vote down on me

 

[Kivam]

[v]Wombat[/v]

 

Seems people are starting to echo my thoughts here.

 

Need to leave for work now, I'll try to peek at the thread throughout the day if I get the chance.

 

Even on reread, this seems to come from out of the blue

[Lenlo]

 

Listen to Einstein. Keep it simple.

Your scum read on me.

 

Didnt say scum, said you were one of the better lynchs for the day and then voted for someone I felt was worse.

 

Ive actually liked your dedication to catching up, even if my eyes glaze over when attempting to read all these quote walls.

[Andrej]

Didnt say scum, said you were one of the better lynchs for the day and then voted for someone I felt was worse.

 

[Lenlo]

Yeah.

 

 

 

 

Semantics

[Kaylee]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

 

Sephander (4): ClovFG, John Snow, Wombicat, Lenlo

Kivam (6): Hallia, Nyce, Sephander, Shad, Sili, Laine

Lenlo (2): CorKey, Razen

John Snow (2): Pral, Wish/Celeste

Laine (1): Yates

Hallia (1): Talya, Kivam

 

 

Not Voting (3): Csarmi, Nolderf, AJ

 

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

 

Deadline is Monday Aug 17th @ 9am MST/Noon EST

[BFG]

Good evening :)

[Andrej]

You're missing the point then.

 

You're saying you don't have a scum read on me (your posts about me would indicate otherwise) but you're WTL me anyway for the info? At that point I don't think I had interacted with that many people to make that argument very valid.

[Andrej]

Good evening :)

 

Hey!

[BFG]

 

 

Listen to Einstein. Keep it simple.

Your scum read on me.

 

Didnt say scum, said you were one of the better lynchs for the day and then voted for someone I felt was worse.

 

Ive actually liked your dedication to catching up, even if my eyes glaze over when attempting to read all these quote walls.

 

If I recall correctly you said there were some posts that pinged and that AJ or Zander would make good info lynches, yet at that point I don't recall AJ interacting with many people???

[Andrej]

Even on reread, this seems to come from out of the blue

 

Can't stop the GOAT imo

[BFG]

You're missing the point then.

 

You're saying you don't have a scum read on me (your posts about me would indicate otherwise) but you're WTL me anyway for the info? At that point I don't think I had interacted with that many people to make that argument very valid.

[BFG]

 

 

 

I dont back down and i dont care how that makes me look. 

 

Townie Zander post imo.

 

 

This is why anyone that was in or read the Belicheat game isn't giving Zander the slack he once enjoyed:

 

I don't back off of something when I think I'm right and I TRULY believe that I am right here.

 

Wolf Zander is clearly aware of his Town meta and isn't afraid to use it.

 

 

Ok - fair enough, I guess I'm still one of those suckers. I just wanna believe in Zander, you know? Looking at Razen's ISO sort of reinforces my feelings regarding him.

 

Also a good look for Razen, I think his way of evaluating Zander/Kivish and the analysis. Probably one of my stronger townie reads atm.

 

I appreciate I'm missing at least 30 pages here, but weren't you saying something similar to Yates early on?

[BFG]

anyways, I'll have this tab open as I catch up

[Razen]

Kivam, part 1:

 

 

 

[v]AJ[/v]. Will be my policy lynch choice unless something significantly better comes along. Yes, i am still very, very pissed. Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

I'm not going to beat this up.  The vote that started it all.  I'm more into the reactions that resulted from it though.  Because by itself, it's an initial vote that people seemed to read a lot into.  Which doesn't really happen with other people's initial votes. 

 

 

 

And.... a welcome to the new peoples that are playing with us here glad to have you!

Okay. Hydras.

We have.. 8 of them. My theory is that at least a few are on the mafia team. I suggest that we just start lynching them to
A- decrease post counts
B- hit scum within a smaller pool ( 8 < 20 )

[v] Wombicat[/v] [unvote]
[v] Sander [/v] [unvote] <----- this is my second favorite
[v] Kivish [/v] [unvote]
[v] Nyce [/v] [unvote]
[v] ClovFG [/v] [unvote] <---- this is my favorite one
[v] CoryKey [/v] [unvote]
[v] Wish/Celeste[/v] [unvote]
[v] Nolderf [/v]

1 - lol

2 - math says there should be two among the 8 hydras, so there's no greater harm in this approach than focusing on the game as a whole on d1. So have at it

 

Eh, as I said in my Mish post, there's nothing wrong with taking this approach at first as long as you treat it like any other scum hunt and read them one way or the other and form opinions.  I'm not a math guy though, haha.  Staying stuck on it arbitrarily or just focusing on one slot in it is bad though.

 

 

Since nobody is doing anything ... [v]Pralaya[/v].  If my memory is right, he likes to lurk as scum, and hasn't checked in yet.  Pral, where're you at?  Start laying some content down.

The vote on Pral.  Bases it on meta and a desire to prod Pral into posting.

 

 

OK, I'm done.

 

Shad, will you now concede that I was right?

 

Good thing Verbalou bowed out of this game.  Neither would have believed all that emo from me

 

I am legitimately serious, however, about not liking the double standard Sili is laying down.  I placed a ventvote on AJ early in the game, never had the chance to move it off when the game actually got serious, but Hally took that as a scumtell despite my announcing in the signup thread, pre-role PM, that I was going to be doing just that.  That's weird enough, but Sili finding it scummy when Laine gets suspected for following through on a Lynch All Hydras early joke approach, but perfectly townie when Hally does the same thing on my follow through on a ventvote is really hard for me to grasp.

This is the point I wanted to return to.  Sili and Hallia tried to distinguish between the results with one being game-related and one not.  But how can Laine's reason be game related when at the stage we were at, it was still just an arbitrary narrowing of the POE with no real scum-hunting having taken place at that point?

 

 

 

 

Believe me, Laine's lynch all hydras thing is null. Make what you will of people supporting it.

 

Like I said, I disagree with the concept. Laine is still squarely null right now. But I want to see where she goes with it. Kiv's supporting it cause... MATH!.... eh.  As is him trying to portray a null Pral tell as a scummy. Zander charging in, agreeing with Kiv, and demanding a vote on Laine be removed is a head scratcher. I'm taking my time with him, though, cause judging by the last game we played together.... I don't speak Zanderlish. 

 

 

Not my intent.  I only played with him as scum, at least that I remember, so that's all I know.  But I'm not a fan of lurkers of any alignment, so prodding for content is part of my D1 play anyway.  I'd point you to AJ's Pulp Fiction game where I did the same thing ... but I was scum there, so that's not all that helpful anyway

 

Not being a fan of lurkers is part of the reason you gave for initially voting him.  But meta also popped up, so from what it looks like to me, you conflated the two.  Because both reasons came out in your vote.  People seemed to focus on the first and ignore the second part though.  Which I think its a good idea to look back and notice who did exactly this.  And given your next post, is kinda odd.

 

 

One more time with feeling: i made no accusation against Pral. I prodded him to participate because if he happens to be scum this game, i want content to analyze. If I haven't made this clear enough in this and other threads, I DON'T BELIEVE IN META. Good players can stay consistent across alignment and bad players will get caught making mistakes with or without meta on them. Other than wanting to know if particular arguments are out of character for a player (if i start advocating no lynch D1, there's something weird going on), things like affect and tone are meaningless to me, because they can be faked so easily Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

You did bring up meta though when you voted him by saying that he likes to lurk as scum.  With that in mind, I can see why people are taking issue with your vote here.  That said, I completely agree with your assessment regarding the consistency across alignments part.  It's why I don't like defenses built with meta as a reason - it's completely...fakeable?  It would take a lot more work, to be fair.  But easily doable.

 

 

Cory, it wasn't a reaction test. It was a "come out and post" vote. As scum or town, I'd expect to get at least some content in response that i could *later* use to get a read of Pral. The only really overly scummy behavior would normally be entirely ignoring it, since that would suggest an actual dedication to lurking rather than just a pattern of behavior. Hence the vote - in a game this large it would be easy to miss a generic prod for content while skimming. Much harder to miss an actual bold red vote that's also counted on every vote count Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

This is a response to Cory asking him what he expected as a response from both town Pral and scum Pral from his vote.  The second reason he gave initially stands out - it's a prod to content.  Looking at this, it seems like this is the common theme through out what Kivam was saying. 

 

 

690 - that's neither emo nor AtE. It's not wanting to get sucked into a meaningless back and forth where the only point i can make is "you're wrong". There's no real utility in repeating that over and over, no matter how true it is. But you tell me - what would/should TownKiv do to respond to someone who is misreading his subjective intent? Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

The problem with an appeal to emotion argument outlined perfectly.  So I like the switch in focus here regarding Zander (I think, it's hard to tell not completely in context).  It's an attempt to move away from an appeal that is subjective to a more objective, logic based approach.  The logical approach can be analyzed from both sides to uncover weaknesses.  I like this post a lot, it starts to get deeper into motivations and trying to bring them out.

 

 

No kidding, Yates? People are misreading me. Not crazily enough for the misread to be inherently scummy, though I'd be willing to bet scum will jump on the opportunity to keep pushing it, which has me looking cross-eyed at Zander. I'm fairly sure Cory, Clov, and Sili are town, leery of Hally, and otherwise pretty much blank on everyone else. Playing the game on tapatalk and between crises at work doesn't give me much room to do deep analysis of the thread. If i survive long enough that will change (it had better) but as a townie the only real reason i care about avoiding a D1 lynch is obligation to mish. No complex plans this game, no long cons, no false trails to lay ... no obligations to anyone but her. Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Interesting read of Sili considering that he was holding you to a double standard compared to Laine.  And that you're still leery of Hallia at this stage when she and Sili were the ones that contributed the interplay that you hadn't followed.  I'd kind of like to see that fleshed out a bit.  Especially considering that you accuse him of misreading you in the very next post.

 

 

Checked back in, read to mid-45, and going to post my first real vote of the game before getting back to work.  I really don't like the way [v]Unvote. Vote:Zander[/v] interacted with me, and particularly the misrep with respect to AtE.  And yes, I did deliberately wait for other people to call it out before acting on it; given the reactions I was getting, it was likely to be dismissed as spin if it just came from me.  Zander, you didn't answer Celeste, or Talya, but maybe you'll answer me and a vote: what did you see in my post as AtE?

I'm getting the feeling that someone mis-repped this very, very much.  I have no idea who it was though, but the detail with not answering Celeste and Talya before you place this vote seems important to me because of that.  I feel like someone pushed a narrative that had you as the first one to point it out and vote immediately.  Not a large misrep, in the scheme of things.  But leaving out the Celeste and Talya questions is one of those...inconvenient facts.  Not on you though, but on the thing that I'm remembering for some reason.  I hope I'm not just cooking things together in my head, haha.

 

 

 

 

Except you didn't.  You reached back to my early game posts - where I was faking emo to win an argument with Shad about the advisability of using emo as a towntell - and said nothing at all about the actual post that you called an appeal to emotion.  What people are looking for is an explanation of why you thought that post (not other posts, that one) "appealed to emotion".  Can you provide one?

 

it along with other posts continued to ping me as AtE, whining rage.  a full spectrum of poor me posts. i meant these not this but w/e.  ive tried to explain my thought process out.  somethings not sitting right with your slot. (ive mentioned other reasons as well: Pral vote, no casing, some of Mish's reactions.)

 

i hope this is better.

 

 

it's not.  Multiple people have asked you what part of that post led you to interpret it as AtE, and all you've said here is "because that's how I read it".  That's a tautology, not an explanation.

 

From what I've seen of you this game, you seem to be reading and responding linearly, as you catch up. Is that right?  And were you doing that when you read the post that's triggering these questions?

 

Cory says that the poor explanations from you are par for the course, and since I have him mostly town at the moment I'm willing to contingently take that into consideration.  But he also seems to be defending you quite a bit, which is odd, and being poor at explaining yourself as a townie can't mean you get a pass on everything you do that you can't explain.  The upshot of that is that I'll [unvote], for now, but still want answers to those questions.

 

I think the problem lies in the bold with this line of questioning Zander about the appeal to emotion argument.  Which I agree means he shouldn't get a pass, but I also feel like it could be an opportunity to possibly reword the question or make it clearer to what explicitly you're referring to?  So that way it serves both sides - if he is just poor at explaining himself, it could get the answer and a better idea of what he's thinking and why he reached that conclusion. Or possibly he's deliberately avoiding the answer, or sticking to what he says because he's stubborn, who knows?  I feel like you tried to do that, so an impasse has been reached on the subject.  But more on this later, because the next quote has more of what I want to comment on with this.  And...it's in part 2.

 

 

[Nynaeve]

 

Forgot to mention, been having some fun with the ISO things people showed me. 

 

Wanna share?

[Nynaeve]

I hurt my tail bone :(

[Andrej]

I appreciate I'm missing at least 30 pages here, but weren't you saying something similar to Yates early on?

 

Probably - don't remember tbh.

[Shad_]

I've got a lot of catching up to do today and I'll go ahead and [unvote] until that's done.

[Kaylee]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

 

Sephander (4): ClovFG, John Snow, Wombicat, Lenlo

Kivam (5): Hallia, Nyce, Sephander, Sili, Laine

Lenlo (2): CorKey, Razen

John Snow (2): Pral, Wish/Celeste

Laine (1): Yates

Hallia (1): Talya, Kivam

 

 

Not Voting (3): Csarmi, Nolderf, AJ

 

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

 

Deadline is Monday Aug 17th @ 9am MST/Noon EST

[Nynaeve]

Kaylee, can you tell me how many hours till deadline?  Wanna make sure i got the calculation right.

[Razen]

Kivam, pt. 2:

 

 

 

 

.....Because half a meta is completely useless.
Because I (apparently incorrectly) assumed you would know not to bring up half a meta, unless you were using it for justification.

 

I apologize.  I shouldn't have expected you to know that all of a meta is also completely useless, unless you're dealing with a crap player, in which case it's useful but also unnecessary.  So we're both at fault for assuming things.

 

Snarky, yes.  But point made, also yes.  And it's consistent with the post where he disregards the use of meta.  Not consistent with the Pral vote though.  But I don't think it's that big a deal.

 

 

Anyone else find it funny that Zander stopped answering my questions the second I unvoted him?  That was a reaction test, and I don't like the result.

 

[v]Zander[/v]

So Kiv's unvote was a reaction test.  How much time passed in between the two, and did Zander post anything in the interim?  Again, the weakness of looking in ISO, haha.  But this could be a potential key observation - did Zander stop answering because he felt that he'd already answered, or did he drop it because he saw relief from questions?  Based on my look at Zander earlier, I would say it's the first, because he'd been fairly insistent that he had.

 

 

Zander, that's still not an answer.  You quoted that post and said "again with these types of comments".  Everybody knows what prior posts you were referring to.  What you haven't explained is what in that post you looked at and said "oh, this is AtE just like the others".

Still not a specfic answer from Zander - and the point's been made clearer.  I want to look back quickly and see if he ever actually pointed this out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wish - a. may return as true, but if so, I don't know about it.  The only other truly dedicated lurker in this game (based on my experience) is Hallia, and she was already actively posting (and had recently said she was making an effort to be more active).  Keep in mind what I said earlier - I have a lot of mafia experience, but not with most of these players (there's a reason Wombat said he didn't buy my emo headfake, but pretty much everyone else did ... he's played with me for years).  So wrt most of this game's players, asking me if they usually lurk as scum makes as much sense as asking you if they do.  I just don't know the answer.

Got it. *nod nod*

What you say here seems genuine. Why did you emo headfake? I don't understand that.

 

 

Because in my last game (the one I just accidentally self-lynched in), Shad and I got into an argument about the utility of using emo as a towntell.  I said it could be faked, started to fake it but didn't carry it through, and he said "well, I didn't believe it anyway".

 

And since I'm an INTP, I took that as a challenge

 

Pretty sure I won the argument; so if it gets me lynched in this game, it was still worth it

 

=/

 

you accused zander of misrepping you because he used the word emo.

 

 

Just think of it as before reveal and after reveal.

 

Posts that were before reveal were fake-emo, believably so

 

Posts after were not, and visibly not.

 

Zander took an "after" post and called it an emo AtE to justify maintaining a vote on me.  Of course, it's possible he just missed the reveal, but even so I want to know what in that post he considered an appeal to emotion.  He's never said.

 

I also asked him 2 questions in my unvote post about how he was reading and responding to the thread - he seemed to be doing a linear catch up read with live responses as he went; I asked if that was true and if he'd been doing that when he made the AtE post.  If he was, it makes the "missed the reveal" defense less plausible.  And he ignored those questions.

 

Looking at as a reveal then, I think the following points are valid.  And I don't recall Zander addressing those points either.  But I've also looked at who knows how many people's posts today, so I'm mixing things up or forgetting who said what when.

 

 

OK, reread got postponed by a little family business, read the thread up to here, and will reread later.

 

@Clov/Cory: My rep absolutely is that I'm very bus heavy as scum. 

 

So no, when I'm town, I pretty much am never self-cleared.  I have to count on making good arguments that convince people because they are good arguments, not because they're townreading me - because given my rep, nobody ever ever ever townreads me. Best I can do is null.  (Papa? Will you tell me what it's like being townread when you're town?  I bet it's glorious).  It's also a reason I never make it to endgame without being lynched unless I've been cop-cleared (and even then, people go "but maybe he's a godfather!").  [Note - even in the gambit game, I wasn't the one who rode the towncred to endgame.  I was the sacrificial lamb who got lynched].  On the other hand, I've become less of a NK target as town (except for newb scum) because I'm usually such a good mislynch candidate.

 

As for what I'm comfortable doing as scum ... nope, you're completely wrong.  My rep being what it is is one reason why I have no problem pushing townies when I'm scum, since nobody who knows my meta will clear them for it.  (Like I said, meta is absolutely useless if you're playing with anyone who's any good, because if you know how people expect you to act you can change it up and trap them that way.  Of course, that in turn means I can bus teammates and not have them be auto-suspects, since once you burn a player into leading a townlynch or two because they think they've figured out your game, they tend to be much warier the next time.  It really depends primarily on whether I think a teammate has done something scummy on-thread that I'd call them out for if I was a townie; I'll only bulldog a player - town or scum - if I truly believe their conduct merits it). Bottom line - and I tell this to everyone, in game and out, whenever someone brings this up - in games where I've flipped scum, the only thing to do is write off every interaction I had as an alignment tell for other players, because it just isn't one.  If you're using it as an indication that Player X is town or scum, you're doing it wrong.  Just read the rest of their game and judge based on that.  (And of course, that's a really useful result as scum, too, since it means actual townies can't self clear by being leaders on my lynch). 

Noting the bold for future use, haha.

 

 

 

Yah, could vote Kiv for that alone

 

Real weird reaction from Hally to my "policy lynch AJ" vote.  Not sure why it would be treated any differently than any other early D1 random vote.
 

 

I did mention that in the first part, I didn't like how some people read into that.  Hallia being chief among them, it looks like.

 

 

 

 

Between the Kiv sass and Mish's defensiveness, that is the way to go for now until I see anything better.

 

 

Vote: Kiv/Mish

 

 

 

Between the Kiv sass and Mish's defensiveness, that is the way to go for now until I see anything better.

 

 

Vote: Kiv/Mish

+1

 

 

i dont mind this at all atp.  wanna see more from them before id place a vote there.

 

 

Going to [unvote] based on this post.  I've been reading Zander's push on me as opportunistic, especially given what I (and others) have been reading as a misrep on the AtE issue.  But this post suggests otherwise.

 

(How do you like them dandelions, Yates?)

That's the point that I was trying to make in the Zander part.  It wasn't an opportunistic out of the blue type push on you.  It was made with plenty of forethought, and giving you plenty of time to post and react ITT.  I think it would have been a bigger deal if he'd stuck on right there and then pushed things after.  He also brought up the emo/AtE reason a couple times before actually voting.

 

 

 

Oh I see. This is ongoing.

Difference between Laine and Kivam is Kivam has a fuse and Laine has a rule. These things speak to their mentality. Therefore if Kivam uses the fuse to not play the game, this is bad. Whereas Laine can continue using her rule of thumb as long as there is genuine progression.

 

This remains a silly distinction, since in both cases it would seem like the real question is "does it get used as an excuse not to play, or is there genuine progression" - which means I'd expect the reaction to both as an alignment tell to be consistent (either sit and watch for genuine progression or attack right away).  Don't have a read on Sili from this beyond an associative read, but the inconsistency does not make me feel good about Hally.

 

Through this point in the thread, strongest scum read is Hally, strongest town is (of all people) Zander, and everyone else is mostly null.
 

 

 

 

Oh I see. This is ongoing.

Difference between Laine and Kivam is Kivam has a fuse and Laine has a rule. These things speak to their mentality. Therefore if Kivam uses the fuse to not play the game, this is bad. Whereas Laine can continue using her rule of thumb as long as there is genuine progression.

 

This remains a silly distinction, since in both cases it would seem like the real question is "does it get used as an excuse not to play, or is there genuine progression" - which means I'd expect the reaction to both as an alignment tell to be consistent (either sit and watch for genuine progression or attack right away).  Don't have a read on Sili from this beyond an associative read, but the inconsistency does not make me feel good about Hally.

 

Through this point in the thread, strongest scum read is Hally, strongest town is (of all people) Zander, and everyone else is mostly null.
 

 

I didn't like Sili's point when he brought it up and I still don't like it on reread.  It's made with the assumption that Laine will progress off that, and that Kivam is stuck on his vote.  But Kivam wasn't stuck on his vote - his hydra partner moved it!  The whole thing falls apart as a result.  IIRC, he's clarifying what Hallia had said about the issue, so it's actually her point.  So when I say I don't like Sili's point, it's actually Hallia's I don't like.

 

 

 

If I had to say, I would have

 

Sili, CorKey, Yates, and Nyce down as my townies for the moment

 

Townish/Null would be: AJ, Raz, ClovFG

 

Null: Most everyone else

 

Scummy: Kivish

 

Posts a reads list without explanation. @Hally - you've already given reasons for voting me ... but what was the basis of the rest of the reads?

 

I left out a lot of the stuff towards Hallia above, where the progression towards Kiv's vote on her comes and his vote.  It's relatively recent anyway, it shouldn't be hard to look back at it.  But this is like that read list that people called John Snow out for earlier - but nobody really pushed at this one before this point.  It's the same thing - reads thrown out there with no reason.  So my question is, why hadn't this been caught before?  I really like this catch.

 

 

 

[v]Wombat[/v]

 

Seems people are starting to echo my thoughts here.

 

Need to leave for work now, I'll try to peek at the thread throughout the day if I get the chance.

 

Even on reread, this seems to come from out of the blue

 

 

 

[v]Wombat[/v]

 

Seems people are starting to echo my thoughts here.

 

Need to leave for work now, I'll try to peek at the thread throughout the day if I get the chance.

 

Even on reread, this seems to come from out of the blue

 

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this.

 

 

 

All right, so I'm actually not really seeing what's going on here beyond the meta part of his vote on Pral.  Several people pounced on this slot, back when it was a slot, for reactions.  Kivam seems mostly well reasoned, factoring in the emo meltdown part he faked.  He's shown a willingness to re-evaluate his position and look at things with fresh eyes, and has progressed a read on Zander especially based on that.  I think it's a good sign that he's looking at other options and not keeping his sights narrowed.  He's made good points on Hallia and AJ based on the reread, and it looks like he's engaging with people to try and force issues into the thread.

 

Keeping his other half in mind when he had it, I'm actually feeling fairly good about him.  I'd lean town at this point.