[Advanced] Arthurian Mafia

Yates · March 10, 2015

Yates, if you read the blue in order, it seems hard to translate that in any other way than how I have.

I see what you see, I just think you aren't contextualizing it the same way as me.

DMers *do* have a culture that's different from other places. But so do MSers and VSers and whomever else. Things like the "no information lynch," "scum lurking," "lynch all liars," and a stronger focus on evidence and mechanics rather than the players and motivations are all things I'd consider as part of DM culture. I make no value judgment about any of this but it's something I have to consistently keep in mind as I play. I get away with some of this as "Yates being Yates" but I know I'm taking chances when I play in a way that goes against the grain of some of these embedded beliefs.

That's about as much as I'm going to say on it. I seriously don't think he was trying to bash DM mafia - and that's all I wanted to impart.

Darthe · March 10, 2015

The truth, as it so often does, lies somewhere between the two. I've been around the block enough times to know that this won't improve my position but I am genuinely expressing frustration at a trend that can't be explained by anything other than this forum building up a specific site-meta that doesn't actually help catch mafia. How else do you regularly explain lynching people for reacting emotionally, being biased or without thinking first when the only regular individuals parading those lynches are mafia and players who haven't played outside of this circle of people? In reality people act like people the vast majority of the time and so those things are fairly proven to be inconsistent at best yet as a group DM built up a stigma to these things (which is simply not helpful) and which gets abused by outside players.

Sue me for recognizing it and hoping that one of you might critically contemplate it as well.

Additionally, yates fairly hits it on the head when he says that I love DM mafia. Hell, without my input and efforts would we currently have half of the outside players that we do? It's really doubtful.

Nynaeve · March 10, 2015

How about expressing your frustration outside of a current game? because I can't take anything you say seriously right now and I find this whole topic to be a distraction.

Leelou · March 10, 2015

How about expressing your frustration outside of a current game? because I can't take anything you say seriously right now and I find this whole topic to be a distraction.

Agreed.

Yates · March 10, 2015

My bad. Should not have interceded.

Verbal32 · March 10, 2015

The truth, as it so often does, lies somewhere between the two. I've been around the block enough times to know that this won't improve my position but I am genuinely expressing frustration at a trend that can't be explained by anything other than this forum building up a specific site-meta that doesn't actually help catch mafia. How else do you regularly explain lynching people for reacting emotionally, being biased or without thinking first when the only regular individuals parading those lynches are mafia and players who haven't played outside of this circle of people? In reality people act like people the vast majority of the time and so those things are fairly proven to be inconsistent at best yet as a group DM built up a stigma to these things (which is simply not helpful) and which gets abused by outside players.

Sue me for recognizing it and hoping that one of you might critically contemplate it as well.

Additionally, yates fairly hits it on the head when he says that I love DM mafia. Hell, without my input and efforts would we currently have half of the outside players that we do? It's really doubtful.

I'll bite, mostly because I'm in the mood to.

I'm not doing any of that here. I voted you not because of anything you posted above - I voted you because I don't believe the reasons. Saying "it was just a test" is along the same lines of the things you mention that don't help, or can be abused. There is no difference. I'd argue that NOT allowing people to always claim it was a reaction test is a good idea. I can't even count the amount of times that lame excuse has been floated - on many different sites. Some of the things you're saying make sense, but you can't label them as DM meta.....they exist on other sites as well. It is a part of the game, like it or not.

Darthe · March 10, 2015

Its only relevant in the sense that I think there is a bias at play influencing the decision making of some here, but yet is does exist elsewhere to some extent.

Also, even if you didnt believe me how does that make me mafia verb? Youve played with me enough to know I can craft airtight lies or I can flounder as either alignment without much reason.

Clovdyx · March 10, 2015

DMers gonna DM. POG gonna POG. VS gonna VS. I'm gonna GOAT.

Now, and I'm being nice when I say this, but can we all shut up about this? I'm sure Alanna would appreciate it if we don't use a game she presumably worked hard on to circle jerk one site versus another.

Unless you guys somehow think it'd alignment indicative...

Clovdyx · March 10, 2015

It'd should be it's.

Nynaeve · March 10, 2015

Butt face has a point

Nynaeve · March 10, 2015

(I really did just want to call him butt face)

Leelou · March 10, 2015

(I really did just want to call him butt face)

LOL

dicetosser1 · March 10, 2015

*hands Cass a flaming shot*

so, i just resigned from active duty in my old re-enactment group. I'm going to focus on the group i'm building...

*sighs and gulps down a shot*

not easy after a couple of years of comradery

OI! stop polluting my Cavs with your crappy archer drinks!

Sorry to hear that bro i know you really liked it but im sure the new one will be awesome.

And then perhaps you can go invade the old group and have a DM style Invasion!

Clovdyx · March 10, 2015

I would also point out that, even if on a minuscule level, my lynch not going through does increase the likelihood of me being town. It means I was divisive, something that scum doesn't allow on D1 for their teammates 99% of the time.

I don't really agree with this. It's entirely possible that you're town and scum were already on your lynch, but I find it interesting you reached L-1 (and went back down to L-2) without people hammering. To discuss cultures, the mafia culture here has supported consolidating on a lynch in the past, even if people didn't necessarily agree. If a member of the mafia WASN'T on your lynch - and they had no reason to protect you (ie, you're not a teammate) - they likely could have moved over for "consolidating purposes". There might be a few people who hounded them, but I don't think TOO many people would give them grief over it.

If there's any information to be gained from EoD wagonomics, I would say that it's just that Lily is more likely to be mafia than you, which doesn't speak towards YOUR alignment. I say this because I put Lily up to 5, and at least three people were on that COULD have jumped on her wagon if they just wanted a lynch (Dice, Eldrick, Sili). Both Eldrick and Sili were voting you for reasons - just not to avoid a NL - but either of them flipping mafia will make me question their avoidance.

Verbal32 · March 10, 2015

Its only relevant in the sense that I think there is a bias at play influencing the decision making of some here, but yet is does exist elsewhere to some extent.

Also, even if you didnt believe me how does that make me mafia verb? Youve played with me enough to know I can craft airtight lies or I can flounder as either alignment without much reason.

It has been awhile since we last played, so I'm basically erasing any past meta with you and simply judging you based on your actions in this game. I'm trying not to have any preconceived notions on how you've played before. Having hopped around to multiple sites, you may have altered aspects of your game that I'm not aware of. It seems safer to start from scratch with you.

As a result, perhaps that'll make me spectacularly wrong on you for a while until I can re-read you better. Or.....maybe.....it'll make me more efficient at reading you.

Verbal32 · March 10, 2015

I would also point out that, even if on a minuscule level, my lynch not going through does increase the likelihood of me being town. It means I was divisive, something that scum doesn't allow on D1 for their teammates 99% of the time.

I don't really agree with this. It's entirely possible that you're town and scum were already on your lynch, but I find it interesting you reached L-1 (and went back down to L-2) without people hammering. To discuss cultures, the mafia culture here has supported consolidating on a lynch in the past, even if people didn't necessarily agree. If a member of the mafia WASN'T on your lynch - and they had no reason to protect you (ie, you're not a teammate) - they likely could have moved over for "consolidating purposes". There might be a few people who hounded them, but I don't think TOO many people would give them grief over it.

If there's any information to be gained from EoD wagonomics, I would say that it's just that Lily is more likely to be mafia than you, which doesn't speak towards YOUR alignment. I say this because I put Lily up to 5, and at least three people were on that COULD have jumped on her wagon if they just wanted a lynch (Dice, Eldrick, Sili). Both Eldrick and Sili were voting you for reasons - just not to avoid a NL - but either of them flipping mafia will make me question their avoidance.

Agreed. We really need a flip from somebody heavily involved in all this tomorrow.

LilyElizabeth · March 10, 2015

@Darthe - you can argue about how you meant to sound the way you did until you're blue in the face. Maybe if you insult DMers enough and insinuate that other forums would have cleared you for it, people will think you're town. Maybe.

Maybe you're scum and made a mistake and are now trying to diminish everybody else to make them think they suck for suspecting you. I've seen it work before, so good luck with that.

Maybe you're town and the same thing applies. If that's the case, my opinion is that you're using the wrong strategy to clear yourself. But hey, I'm a DMer and you know - DMers gonna DM, right?

+1

I didn't like him noting that it was old timer players voting him, mentioning other sites and bla bla bla. Seemed completely irrelevant and a questionable way to go around trying to clear himself. When someone is more preoccupied at defending oneself using make believe reasons instead of scumhunting and proving his alignment by actually looking for scum, it's usually not a good sign. Darthe has been hypocritical several times that I've seen. For instance trying to claim that I had a ton of posts with nothing to show for which, aside from being a complete misrep, is funny considering he has ample post count himself with nothing to show for (for realz). Telling Eldrick just now that there's prolly scum in the top posters, when he's the third in post count right now lol... Not saying that scum can't be active. They come in all shapes and colors.... but I don't really get why he's going around things the way that he has. It's not coming across pro-town in the least. And he's been specifically nudging me repeatedly the entire game for no reason that I can see. I've been waiting for a while for him to actually build a case.... still waiting.

But heck, since I'm so nice, and since he wanted my attention that badly, he has it. I'm sure we'll live happily ever after.... or at least I will :P

+1 to both Verbal's and Nyn's statements

LilyElizabeth · March 10, 2015

@Lily, what you think of my play thus far is out of my hands but it doesn't affect my alignment, just your impression of it. Please make that distinction when contemplating me critically.

It's not a question of whether or not it was stupid. It was stupid. Only I feel that it was more of a cover up to pilling on me without noticing that my train wasn't a serious one. It's all about the motives behind it. He can claim it was all a fib for reaction. But I find it awkward more than anything. And thereby scummy.

He had bad posts, than improved a bit but then started pinging me again. Overall I'm not buying what he's selling.

Like I said, I'm less suspicious of him now, because there are still reasons other people are. It's just my reason alone isn't good enough for me anymore.

I get this line of reasoning and sometimes we all do it, just keep in mind that you're additionally letting the opinions of mafia help sway you. In a perfect world those balance out or mafia takes a back-seat but in reality one of them is probably in the top 3-4 posters and has a heavy hand in events.

Replying to the bold:

1. My impression of your play and thus your alignment is all I have to work with, silly.

2. Why was this directed at me specifically?

Eldrick4221 · March 10, 2015

@Lily, what you think of my play thus far is out of my hands but it doesn't affect my alignment, just your impression of it. Please make that distinction when contemplating me critically.

It's not a question of whether or not it was stupid. It was stupid. Only I feel that it was more of a cover up to pilling on me without noticing that my train wasn't a serious one. It's all about the motives behind it. He can claim it was all a fib for reaction. But I find it awkward more than anything. And thereby scummy.

He had bad posts, than improved a bit but then started pinging me again. Overall I'm not buying what he's selling.

Like I said, I'm less suspicious of him now, because there are still reasons other people are. It's just my reason alone isn't good enough for me anymore.

I get this line of reasoning and sometimes we all do it, just keep in mind that you're additionally letting the opinions of mafia help sway you. In a perfect world those balance out or mafia takes a back-seat but in reality one of them is probably in the top 3-4 posters and has a heavy hand in events.

Good point. Aren't you one of the top 3-4 posters?

Eldrick4221 · March 10, 2015

Another thing mafia commonly does is not say much at all. When I get home tonight, I'm going to look into who hasn't said much, and see what they've said.

Cass · March 10, 2015

Yates - you've played both the games Thane has with me...
How would I know that? I've been out of mafia since just before my wife went into labor. AND I don't know where else you play mafia. Still seem like a silly question to you?

Why are you asking if people are familiar with my 'meta'?
To help me read you? Thought that was obvious. As you say, we've only been in 2 games together and I already knew your alignment in one of them, if I'm not mistaken.

I never said it was a silly question?

I was just curious as to your motive - I haven't played (at all) since our last game and I didn't know you didn't know that.

Does it help if I add that you probably have more insight on me than anybody else here? You've known my alignment from the start in both DM games I've played - the first because you were Scum and the second because I was Scum with you. Of all players, you've had the most recent/most complete picture into how my brain naturally works.

I think until now I've relied hardest on an ability to maintain a convincing tone. This game I'm aiming/challenging myself to reduce my natural but unfortunately 'suspicious/nooby' paranoia, reduce my giant WoTs and learn to increase my actual contributions to the game/Town. That's my biggest weakness at this point, and I want to improve. Hope that helps.

Cass · March 10, 2015

Heading out to take the kid to daycare. Hoping D2 starts soon and that I'm still alive when it does - I wanna play!!!!

Yates · March 11, 2015

This game I'm aiming/challenging myself to reduce my natural but unfortunately 'suspicious/nooby' paranoia, reduce my giant WoTs and learn to increase my actual contributions to the game/Town.

Whaaaaaat? How am I supposed to read you for real without those delicious WoT's? Also, can you refresh my baby brain - what games were we in together again?

Alanna · March 11, 2015

Nimue gazed into the scrying bowl, searching for answers hidden within its depths. The hour was late, but Nimue had no time for sleep. She knew that there was a growing threat in the castle - something no one could see, something hiding just out of her line of sight, like so much air and darkness. The northern lords badgered Arthur night and day in fruitless efforts to have him put aside Guinevere, but their threats were empty without real power behind them. But there was power, here, somewhere in the castle... she just did not know where.

Where the threat came from didn't matter if she couldn't make Arthur trust her. She almost couldn't blame him for his dislike of her, given how she'd come to power. He would always feel that she had replaced Merlin, she was sure. But Arthur didn't have to like her. She only needed to make him see that he could trust her. If she could find a way...

An image began to take form in the water before her. At first, Nimue thought it was a cross, like the symbol the Christians bore for their god. But as the image became clearer, she realized it was not a cross, but a sword - a shining sword, glistening where droplets of water clung to it, like tiny diamonds embedded in the blade.

Of course. Excalibur.

The legendary sword was meant for Arthur, Nimue had always known that. She must seek out the sword for him - bring Arthur an opportunity to retrieve it and claim its power as his own. The sword had been lost for years, but she, Nimue, would find it.

She would leave this very night. Quickly, she laced up her boots and cast her cloak, drawing its hood down deep over her face.

She moved silently through the dark castle corridors. She didn't want to be seen leaving, not at this time of night; she would draw too many unanswered questions that she didn't have time for. She slipped quietly down a back stairwell that led to the servant's quarters.

But as she descended the last step, she found herself face to face with another hooded figure - only this one, unlike her, carried a sword. Nimue reached for her power, but she did not even have time to draw another breath before the sword flashed out toward her, quick, like lightning. The blade took her through the heart, and by the time she fell to her knees, she was already dead.

Verbal - Nimue, Gifter, Town, has been killed.

Excalibur, the Motivator ability, has been lost.

The next morning, a boy called Owen hurried through the castle to Arthur's quarters. He fiddled nervously with his hands as he went, wishing he had not been the one sent to bring the news of Lady Nimue's death to the king. Still, he couldn't keep the king waiting. He picked up his pace as he rounded the corner into a side corridor.

He'd nearly broken into a flat-out run when his shoes slipped through something slick and wet on the floor, and he fell, hitting his side hard. Wincing, he pushed himself up into a seated position. When he looked down, he saw a dark, crimson liquid coated his hands and his shirt...he'd fallen into a pool of blood.

Owen was beginning to wish he had slept in that morning, no matter the beating he would've got. Slowly, he got to his knees and crawled across the stone floor, following the trail of blood. He was afraid to see where it led, but he kept inching forward, as though compelled.

The pool of blood had slowly seeped out from a small alcove around the corner, a small nook, so small and hidden from the torchlight that it was easy to miss. Owen struggled to get to his feet and stepped forward, peering into the dark alcove.

When he saw the two bodies lying there, red with blood, he began to scream.

Lily - Tristan, Lover, Town, has been killed.

Cass - Isolde, Lover, Town, has been killed.

Day 2 begins. Your deadline is Friday, March 13 @ 8PM CST.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Darthe · March 11, 2015

So if those are blue does that mean that they are town Alanna?

[Advanced] Arthurian Mafia

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