The Waking Dead Seaon 4

[SinisterDeath]

I just assumed the blood was from their mouths/eyes/whatever and they'd scuffed it with their feet, rather than it being caused by their bodies being dragged :p But yes, it does make more sense that someone else did it, and I agree about the army medic. I got a funny feeling as soon as I saw him and someone mentioned about him being on his own for ages.

 

That was one of the first thoughts, but it was  struck down once you realized how much blood was on the floor. An amount that equated to someone bleeding out from a stab wound, over that of bleeding eyes.

Not to mention it wasn't that long, given the timeframe, they couldn't have gotten that  sick, that fast.

 

 

The evil little girl? Don't see it. She likes Walkers, so why would she kill two people who might potentially turn into them?

Both the girls were made to watch as their father was turning into a walker/killed. At that point, they decided that walkers were no longer friends. This was a change, brought upon by Carol.

But as pointed out, this could only have worked, if both of the girls helped. Or if Carol walked in, and saw that one girl had killed both people, and then disposed of the bodies.

 

Either way, I called it that Carol was at the very least involved in their deaths. If the girls killed them, at the very least she's an accessory.

 

I don't get why anyone would suspect Carol either. I'd say Glen or Daryl would be more likely than her, if it was someone from the main group.

What about Maggie's sister (Beth, I think)? She seemed kinda off to me. Seems like she might be potentially turning into a harder, more ruthless character.

Glen, Daryl. and the others? They all had alibis; The only people we didn't see doing something out in the yard at that point in time? Carol, the Medic, and the two little girls.

 

We know it can't be Rick, or Carl because they were outside, burning the dead from the nights attack.

 

 

Oh, and I also found it kind of weird that Hershel didn't look at the pig as soon as it got sick. They could have made up some sort of excuse at least. Bit sloppy.

Yep. But the shows not exactly that accurate either.

Look how long it took them to go from the run and hide game, to trying to find someplace to settle down?  4 seasons in, and they are finally making a small vegetable garden! That's not enough to feed that many people... Even their original group! Top that off.. They had.. so many bodies in that prison.. Wth weren't they getting them to help with the planting? Seriously? You have what.. 60 people in that prison?  And one man gardening? While everyone does....?

 

Scavenging food/supplies for everyone? You can't feed that many people like that! One lady going down to get water for everyone? Oye, I tell you. If I were running that ship, I'd be kicking some asses into doing something.

Even the old man should know the saying "Idle hands are the devils work".

[Feral]

Glen, Daryl. and the others? They all had alibis

 

 

I meant that out of the original group, she'd be pretty low down my list of people who would do that sort of thing, not that those two actually did it. As some people were arguing that she has a survival at any cost type of attitude. But in my opinion she's not the most ruthless one in the group.

 

And I wasn't really convinced about the girl's change of opinion, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. 

 

I just really hope it wasn't actually Carol. I think it would be completely out of character for her to kill the people, rather than just keeping a watch on them or restraining them until they either died or recovered. But on the other hand...I struggle to see where they'll go with the story if the girls were responsible.  

[SinisterDeath]

I just really hope it wasn't actually Carol. I think it would be completely out of character for her to kill the people, rather than just keeping a watch on them or restraining them until they either died or recovered. But on the other hand...I struggle to see where they'll go with the story if the girls were responsible.  

 

Her teaching seminar with the children, shows just how 'hardened' to the situation she's become.

Stress and fatigue, changes people.

She didn't kill those child's father after he turned, or while turning. But before he turned.

 

This disease, was presented as 100% fatal. Thus in survival mode, if you have a contagious disease, that is 100% likely to kill, and turn you into a zombie afterwards. It is entirely within the character of someone who is of the mindset "survival at all costs".

[Feral]

 

 

She didn't kill those child's father after he turned, or while turning. But before he turned.

 

But she didn't kill him as soon as she saw the bite mark on the back of the neck. She waited for him to "die". That scene is actually what makes me think it would be unlikely for her to kill the sick people. If she was the sort of person to kill them then I would have expected her to kill the dad as soon as she saw the bite on his arm, never mind the neck bite. Yes, there was a chance he could be saved. But there was also a chance the sick people simply had an ordinary cold/flu. 

 

Unless Carol simply waited with the dad so the kids could kill him? In that case...perhaps she actually encouraged the kids to kill the sick people, to toughen them up? I still don't think Carol would do that, but it's an interesting thought. 

 

As a side note, I find the fact that she wanted the girls to kill their own dad kind of unnecessary and hypocritical. I'd rather someone else killed a relative if they'd been zombified, but that doesn't mean I'd be incapable of doing it myself if there was no other choice. And would Carol have killed Sophie if Shane hadn't done it?

[SinisterDeath]

As a side note, I find the fact that she wanted the girls to kill their own dad kind of unnecessary and hypocritical. I'd rather someone else killed a relative if they'd been zombified, but that doesn't mean I'd be incapable of doing it myself if there was no other choice. And would Carol have killed Sophie if Shane hadn't done it?

 

Which goes back to the inconsistency in the writing.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

if they had EHF they needed burning and the killing was moot.

[Nolder]

I'm so confused.

Did Rick just kick Carol out of the group...and give her all the stuff they gathered?

When the group needs as many people as it can possibly get?

Where did he get a second van? And if he cared so much about waiting for that guy why didn't he wait longer?

 

wtf????

[Nolder]

[John E. Kelley]

Rick made a poor decision.

[SBoydW]

I'm so confused.

Did Rick just kick Carol out of the group...and give her all the stuff they gathered?

When the group needs as many people as it can possibly get?

Where did he get a second van? And if he cared so much about waiting for that guy why didn't he wait longer?

 

wtf????

No he gave her some stuff to survive. It showed his car full.

 

The second vehicle was the one they saw when they first walked up to the house where they met the two people. And he didn't wait longer because he realized carol was probably right and the kid was dead, or not coming back. And I don't think Carol is gone for good. If this show wants you gone for good it just kills you. There are still 13 episodes left in this season, she will be back.

[asha'he-man]

Yeah, she will be back.

 

And I don't think Rick was necessarily waiting for the kid, but pushing back what he was gonna do with Carol.

[bgrishinko]

Also, Rick didn't actually personally kick her out, he just let her make the decision to leave really by telling her that he'd have to tell the group. He couldn't lie to the group about what she did and Tyreese would destroy her. She F'd up when it came to working with the group even if it was for the group's best interests. Rick's made a ton of bad decisions, but they've come normally in ways to protect the people in the group at all costs, not sacrifice them without input from the group. Even during the Ricktatorship, he still did everything he could to protect everyone in the group including risking more lives by infiltrating the Governor's compound.  Honestly, in this world, the smarter thing is probably what Carol did. But it wasn't agreed upon by everyone first, and those 2 should have had a say in it too, if they were willing to die to help the group. The Governor would sacrifice his own people to save others, not Rick. At very least he wouldn't hide the fact. Except Shane. But that was a kill or be killed sort of situation, so whatcha gonna do?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you gotta know when to bus, bg. we've discussed this...

 

srsly, they needed deading.

 

it was completely out of character and out of nowhere for it to be carol, tho.

 

that's just not good writing.

[Nolder]

srsly, they needed deading.

That's really debatable.

I mean with the tools on hand not even the medically trained could say for sure whether any individual would die or not.

So the threat of more zombies on the inside is not a guaranteed outcome.

And so, if there is a chance to live, it's really up in the air whether they should be killed or not.

If the argument is that it didn't matter whether they lived or died because the goal was to prevent the sickness from spreading killing them in that way was not an ideal solution. She came in contact with the bodies and therefore was just as likely to catch it and spread it than if she had never killed them.

Not that I'm saying Carol the character would think of any of that or that anyone in that situation would necessarily.

Just...they probably didn't need to be killed. And definitely not in the way they were.

 

The thing that I think most people are missing about Carol being booted is that in life or death situations you want people who are going to fight for you.

You want people to have your back because you know you'll have theirs and together is the only way to make it through.

Those kinds of people are not going to mix with the brutal efficiency of the attitude that anyone is expendable for the greater good.

I'm not saying that one method is better than the other but I do think that Carol essentially turned into Shane and there was no longer any room for her.

Especially given that she's not just expressing her views, she's taking matters into her own hands without consulting anyone.

What happens when it's Carl or the baby that needs to go "for the greater good"? Would she do it if it was Daryl?

That kind of risk and the likely hypocrisy means she's no longer a good person to have in the group.

 

I'm not sure what it means that Rick chose to make that decision himself though.

Does that mean he's just as bad as Carol in a sense? Is the Ricktatorship coming back?

I dunno but honestly the questions that episode raised made for some good tv and I'm glad the show is getting kind of back on track to what I think makes it any good in the first place. Urban exploration in a post apocalyptic world and moral questions.

[SinisterDeath]

 

I'm not sure what it means that Rick chose to make that decision himself though.

It speaks more to his humanity over him being a dictator.

He owes his life to carol, and vice versa on many occasions. So ultimately it's his way of showing mercy.

She royally screwed up...

 

He knew if she went back, he would have to tell. That Carol would be outright killed by Tyreese.

It would cause a definite fracture in the group. (Daryl vs Tyreese.) on an already tense situation.

 

Removing her from the equation, even if Rick does, or doesn't tell anyone, at the very worst, means Tyreese will flip out on Rick. Something he's willing to risk, as it wouldn't fracture the group versus if Carol was around.

[bgrishinko]

you gotta know when to bus, bg. we've discussed this...

 

srsly, they needed deading.

 

it was completely out of character and out of nowhere for it to be carol, tho.

 

that's just not good writing.

 

Oh I agree with you here they needed deading, but its good form to ask permission from the team to bus 'em first. Otherwise you risk people seeing you as a traitor. And I do think it was out of character for her as well.

[SBoydW]

I think it would have been out of character for her last season. She's clearly evolved in her personality and outlook. I think that for her to stay submissive and weak like she was early on, and to still be a live would be unrealistic and thus worse writing. At least the writers are acknowledging that she need to evolve or be killed. She evolved and is thus still alive and likely to make a return IMO.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

there's a long way between submissive and weak and first degree murder

[SBoydW]

There's a big difference between life as a house wife and a zombie apocalypse too. She adapted. It happens.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ummmmmm..... hypothetically of course but... don't see going from one to the other, not just survivor but cold blooded killer, bloody own hands and all, not poison, not from a distance... don't see that happening like this.

[SinisterDeath]

ummmmmm..... hypothetically of course but... don't see going from one to the other, not just survivor but cold blooded killer, bloody own hands and all, not poison, not from a distance... don't see that happening like this.

Killing zombies, which appear human, forces you to recognize the undead, as not human to make killing them as easy and effortless as it is.

 

This was the entire focal point of the season 2 with Hershel...

He didn't like killing the undead, because they look human. And its only a matter of time, that you become dead inside to killing anything you consider the undead. It's ultimately only a matter of time, that people can simply flip an internal switch, and label whoever needs deading, as a zombie and feel no remorse for doing so.

 

Aka, Carol and those she believed were the undead, they just didn't know it yet.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

nah, she had access to a crossbow and a man to wield it. and poison. and smothering. and...

 

nah, not buying it in character.

 

I'll have to wait for the zombies to know for sure but...

 

also wouldn't want to be killing someone contagious where I could get gooed and I think she might have thought of that too.

[bgrishinko]

 

ummmmmm..... hypothetically of course but... don't see going from one to the other, not just survivor but cold blooded killer, bloody own hands and all, not poison, not from a distance... don't see that happening like this.

Killing zombies, which appear human, forces you to recognize the undead, as not human to make killing them as easy and effortless as it is.

 

This was the entire focal point of the season 2 with Hershel...

He didn't like killing the undead, because they look human. And its only a matter of time, that you become dead inside to killing anything you consider the undead. It's ultimately only a matter of time, that people can simply flip an internal switch, and label whoever needs deading, as a zombie and feel no remorse for doing so.

 

Aka, Carol and those she believed were the undead, they just didn't know it yet.

 

 

I see your point, but she didn't do this with the girl's Dad as we discussed already. She waited till they were fully dead then delivered the death blow.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

ummmmmm..... hypothetically of course but... don't see going from one to the other, not just survivor but cold blooded killer, bloody own hands and all, not poison, not from a distance... don't see that happening like this.

Killing zombies, which appear human, forces you to recognize the undead, as not human to make killing them as easy and effortless as it is.

 

This was the entire focal point of the season 2 with Hershel...

He didn't like killing the undead, because they look human. And its only a matter of time, that you become dead inside to killing anything you consider the undead. It's ultimately only a matter of time, that people can simply flip an internal switch, and label whoever needs deading, as a zombie and feel no remorse for doing so.

 

Aka, Carol and those she believed were the undead, they just didn't know it yet.

 

 

I see your point, but she didn't do this with the girl's Dad as we discussed already. She waited till they were fully dead then delivered the death blow.

 

To the bold, That actually highlights it perfectly then.

If she prior waited till death before the killing blow, but with the child's father, didn't. Then it just goes to show her waiting less, and less before someone turns to kill them. She's stopped viewing the infected as humans.

[bgrishinko]

I think you missed my point. Carol waited until the Dad had died. At that point, she stabbed the brain. With the two diseased folks, it is heavily implied they were not dead yet when Carol delivered the killing blow. Everyone is infected, just a bite will definitely kill you if not amputated.

 

She offed people who were still alive and were not bitten. It seemed plausible they would die so she killed them early to risk spread of infection. If by some chance, they recovered from the illness, they'd not be walkers. Hence Murder.