Quality Discussion Thread

[Rhienne]

To be fair to BS, he did have to find something to fill all the massive gaps.  We know he had very little to work from, particularly for AMoL.  I don't personally feel he filled the gaps with the right kind of scenes; I think too many of the parts he wrote made me think that RJ would definitely not have written than scene, or that kind of sub-plot (e.g. Hinderstrap, Androl's Gateways), and I would have preferred to have filler which was more in-keeping with something the reader could believe RJ might have written.  Its tough though, because some of the sub-plots were among the better written material, e.g. Androl and Pevara, which is probably unsurprising - BS is better able to right scenes and characters more in keeping with his own style of writing, but this means moving the plot further away from anything RJ could have written.

 

I believe RJ was the better writer (by a fairly large margin), and even in his episodes of filler - like the (long) chapter in PoD where the only thing that happens is Nynaeve and Elayne walk across a courtyard and get into a carriage, repetitive scenes during the Andoran/Cairhienin succession, etc. - I still found the writing style enjoyable to read. 

[Suttree]

So Harbor was even more pontless

 

It's so So Habor and it is in a part of the story where we are still working up to the end run so again apples and oranges. Regardless here is a breakdown of how it relates to Perrin's development.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/06/crossroads-of-twilight-read-through-8.html

[Mithan]

If we want to talk about pointless, why not go all the way? The Caramoor plot line was totally pointless.  What did the Sea Folk end up doing with Rand?  Nothing.  They drove a boat to Bandar Eban.  Yay.  

 

Padain Fain was also pointless in the end.

 

Lets face it, the series needed Jordan to finish it and either 2 more books OR a lot of editing.  

[Mats Spare Hat]

One thing I found I appreciate more, considering the circumstance under which the series was completed, was RJ's ability to self-edit his own work, before having ever turned it in for review, so to speak...

Just the awareness to be able to say alright, this is crap writing, or this is up to par...this might seem pointless but it foreshadows, and it's not something that's needlessly hand-holdy, or redundant for the sake of beating people over the head to make sure I know, that they know, what's happening.

I mean to me that sort of introspective awareness, what have you, doesn't seem too far-fetched - as far as not needing second, or even third party feedback, to be aware of whether or not a particular scene or setting is garbage, detracts from planned events, or even if something just straight up sucks & needs a complete overhaul.


Not to claim RJ was some kind of genius, and that his storytelling didn't contain tangents or details, not at all...but at least his detailing & filler didn't leave behind the proverbial taste of hhuuuurrr dddduurrr derp a derp derpiddy do.

[jedman67]

If we want to talk about pointless, why not go all the way? The Caramoor plot line was totally pointless.  What did the Sea Folk end up doing with Rand?  Nothing.  They drove a boat to Bandar Eban.  Yay.  

 

Padain Fain was also pointless in the end.

 

Lets face it, the series needed Jordan to finish it and either 2 more books OR a lot of editing.  

the sea folk used the BoW to keep the weather around SG from going crazy.

[Isabel]

 

If we want to talk about pointless, why not go all the way? The Caramoor plot line was totally pointless.  What did the Sea Folk end up doing with Rand?  Nothing.  They drove a boat to Bandar Eban.  Yay.  

 

Padain Fain was also pointless in the end.

 

Lets face it, the series needed Jordan to finish it and either 2 more books OR a lot of editing.

 

the sea folk used the BoW to keep the weather around SG from going crazy.

And it could be that jordan had something cool in mind, but that it wasnt written down. So the build up was for something but couldnt be executed.

[Suttree]

 

 

If we want to talk about pointless, why not go all the way? The Caramoor plot line was totally pointless. What did the Sea Folk end up doing with Rand? Nothing. They drove a boat to Bandar Eban. Yay.

 

Padain Fain was also pointless in the end.

 

Lets face it, the series needed Jordan to finish it and either 2 more books OR a lot of editing.

 

the sea folk used the BoW to keep the weather around SG from going crazy.

And it could be that jordan had something cool in mind, but that it wasnt written down. So the build up was for something but couldnt be executed.

They already used it to save the world once over as well.

[mrtumnas]

I for one am pretty happy about how BS handled the last three books, with a handful of MAJOR exceptions. He's not a super talented writer, and like someone else mentioned his "tell don't show" style is irritating, but  having just finished Knife of Dreams on a re-read, and am now on TGS, I really appreciate how he picked up the pace of the writing in a way that was actually interesting. Yes, he put in some content and scenes that weren't crucial to advancing the plot, but they were gererally fun to read (Hinderstap!) and most importantly, they were SHORT. When RJ threw in filler, it spanned multiple books and made me want to gouge my eyes out  (can anyone say the Kin?)

[jedman67]

The Kin had uses, but ultimately, they ended up being useless. I imagine RJ wanted to use them in some dramatic fashion, but they were a side point. I liked Androl, but the double-bonding of Pevara and the telepathy stuff just threw me off. I figure on my reread he"ll be a bit more enjoyable.

The 13x13...i hated that! It was deep, mysterious, deadly, and terrifying just to think about it. Even Myrdraal under orders are terrifying to keep around, to deal with them, even for a DF/BA/BASH should make one shudder.

The scene as described just felt...empty. No mystery. No creepy music in my head. No immersiveness. Just felt really dry to me. 

[Jaxian]

There is a lot to say about a AMOL, but, all I'll say is quite simply it was garbage. This series should have died with Robert Jordan. Sanderson has ruined this series.None of the characters sound or act like they did, Demandred was ruined, Grandel was ruined, everyone was ruined, the final battle was complete nonsense of poor writing, everything including the ending reaked of everyone having the idiot ball. I knew Sanderson would be a mistake, I knew it, but, nobody listened, and my fears were correct.

 

Jordan was no master writer, but, his prose was at least far superior to anything Sanderson could write. Ugh. If Jordan were alive now he'd be red with anger.

[avernite]

A two-book split would indeed have been good, seeing as nearly everyone had a sub-finish point. The ToG, Perrin's saving the Whitecloaks, Rand on Dragonmount and Egwene's uniting the Tower. The exact time between them, in the end, was a bit long - but could indeed have been shorter.

 

I probably would've kept Rands epiphany to the second though. Sure, 'A memory of Light' would be spoilerish then, but it would've made a good ending... Thom's sad song for Moiraine, the Tower under attack by Seanchan, Galad beaten by the Trollocs (could've used slightly more hopelessness on the side of Perrin's army, from how it turned out the battle was a cakewalk for his army and saving Galad was easy), and Rand about to destroy Ebou Dar, it could have been.

 

Then again, that would maybe be too much cliffhanger-milking.

[nitavonne]

I have waited for a while before I commented again. I confess that for the first time ever.; I cannot contemplate rereading the Wheel of Time; I do not want to re read the final book ever again. I shall not read River of Souls either, I am not a masochist. I shall purchase the  Encyclopedia , but first I shall read bits and pieces in the bookstore . I feel very disappointed with the caretakers of Mr. Jordan's Legacy. I would like to read Luckers review if available, and Terez's , and Mat's. Also I would like to know what Fish thought of the culmination of such a well beloved series. Sad.

[Luciena]

I just finished AMOL on Friday.... I did not like it...

I was disappointed in Brandon Sanderson I actually liked the Mistborn series and Elantris I really got into them.

But he left a lot to be desired, the characters were very dry,I did not feel for any of them in the end.

I adored the whole original Two Rivers crew Moiraine, Lan, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Thom Egwene, Nynaeve: by the end of the book they were acting as strangers with each other.

Maybe it was just me but I'd have thought you'd show more emotion seeing as you just escaped the end of the world and most of your loved ones are around you. They just sort of disperse. 

"ANYWAY"

 

I still feel like I need closure there is no feeling in this book of (The End,) 

[batcaver]

I just finished AMOL on Friday.... I did not like it...

I was disappointed in Brandon Sanderson I actually liked the Mistborn series and Elantris I really got into them.

But he left a lot to be desired, the characters were very dry,I did not feel for any of them in the end.

I adored the whole original Two Rivers crew Moiraine, Lan, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Thom Egwene, Nynaeve: by the end of the book they were acting as strangers with each other.

Maybe it was just me but I'd have thought you'd show more emotion seeing as you just escaped the end of the world and most of your loved ones are around you. They just sort of disperse. 

"ANYWAY"

 

I still feel like I need closure there is no feeling in this book of (The End,) 

 

Totally agree, though I won't rehash since I've said it all multiple times.  I was relistening to the second half of the book today, since my wife has finally made it there and is listening for the first time.  Once again, I'm constantly struck by the bitter irony that some of the most pivotal scences in the culmination of the series are also the most lacking in emotional gravity.  In a series that pushed the boundaries for character development in fantasy, this final volume came out no deeper than most Saturday morning cartoons I watched as a kid.  Some of your favorite characters are dead.  Cut up one last trolloc.  Smoke a pipe.  The End.

 

I keep wondering what all Sanderson's baby sitters were thinking when he handed this thing in.  Did everyone just fold to the pressure of getting a book out ASAP? Criminal.

[Flipsaken]

The most striking thing about the Sanderson books for me is that I don't think I'll ever read them again. I have read all of RJs books at least three times since his death, but I've only read TGS twice and TOM once and I struggled to even finish AMoL. I know I'll re-read the series up to KoD again, but I just can't see me reading the last three. I just can't see them as cannon. It would have been far better to have left the series as it was than to finish it this way.

[Rhienne]

The most striking thing about the Sanderson books for me is that I don't think I'll ever read them again. I have read all of RJs books at least three times since his death, but I've only read TGS twice and TOM once and I struggled to even finish AMoL. I know I'll re-read the series up to KoD again, but I just can't see me reading the last three. I just can't see them as cannon. It would have been far better to have left the series as it was than to finish it this way.

I feel the same.  I think they really do read like fanfiction.  relatively good for fanfiction, but definitely still fanfiction.  I kind of wish BS and TJ would come out and tell us which bits were written by RJ, which plot points were his, etc.  I can understand why they don't, and it might not be quite fair to BS to do so, but I would prefer to know which scenes are cannon, and which I can re-imagine if I'm unsatisfied with.

[Finnssss22]

 

The most striking thing about the Sanderson books for me is that I don't think I'll ever read them again. I have read all of RJs books at least three times since his death, but I've only read TGS twice and TOM once and I struggled to even finish AMoL. I know I'll re-read the series up to KoD again, but I just can't see me reading the last three. I just can't see them as cannon. It would have been far better to have left the series as it was than to finish it this way.

I feel the same.  I think they really do read like fanfiction.  relatively good for fanfiction, but definitely still fanfiction.  I kind of wish BS and TJ would come out and tell us which bits were written by RJ, which plot points were his, etc.  I can understand why they don't, and it might not be quite fair to BS to do so, but I would prefer to know which scenes are cannon, and which I can re-imagine if I'm unsatisfied with.

 

 

Of course it wouldn't be fair to BS. Any time something is revealed to be by BS, it gets picked apart.endlessly and not always rationally.

As soon as something people have been picking apart is revealed to be written by RJ, suddenly it's not longer talked/bitched about.

There's a real bias happening, far too often an irrational one at that. Not from everyone but from some the louder ones to be sure.

 

Not to get me wrong though, I have no doubt it would have been written better by RJ himself but I was more than satisfied with BS. Not great by any means but he certainly didn't ruin the series for me like he has seemingly done for some.

 

All I can say for sure is that given a choice between reading Books 8, 9 and 10 or 12, 13 and 14...the latter would win every time.

[Rhienne]

 

 

The most striking thing about the Sanderson books for me is that I don't think I'll ever read them again. I have read all of RJs books at least three times since his death, but I've only read TGS twice and TOM once and I struggled to even finish AMoL. I know I'll re-read the series up to KoD again, but I just can't see me reading the last three. I just can't see them as cannon. It would have been far better to have left the series as it was than to finish it this way.

I feel the same.  I think they really do read like fanfiction.  relatively good for fanfiction, but definitely still fanfiction.  I kind of wish BS and TJ would come out and tell us which bits were written by RJ, which plot points were his, etc.  I can understand why they don't, and it might not be quite fair to BS to do so, but I would prefer to know which scenes are cannon, and which I can re-imagine if I'm unsatisfied with.

 

 

Of course it wouldn't be fair to BS. Any time something is revealed to be by BS, it gets picked apart.endlessly and not always rationally.

As soon as something people have been picking apart is revealed to be written by RJ, suddenly it's not longer talked/bitched about.

There's a real bias happening, far too often an irrational one at that. Not from everyone but from some the louder ones to be sure.

 

Not to get me wrong though, I have no doubt it would have been written better by RJ himself but I was more than satisfied with BS. Not great by any means but he certainly didn't ruin the series for me like he has seemingly done for some.

 

All I can say for sure is that given a choice between reading Books 8, 9 and 10 or 12, 13 and 14...the latter would win every time.

 

I do very much agree with your points.  I actually think BS did probably as good a job as anyone other than RJ himself would have done, and that he had an extremely difficult task in taking on another author's work, never mind that he had the challenge of working together a mix of scenes written by RJ, skeleton notes on key plot events, plus material completely made up by him.  

 

It is my personal feeling that some aspects of the plot and writing style would have been drastically different if RJ had finished the series, and I would (from a selfish level) like to know exactly what was intended by RJ for the characters, and what was made up.  I don't believe this would impact my opinion on writing quality too badly, its more a sense of just wanting to know what RJ had intended.  For example, I know RJ had planned never to write another AS testing scene after Moiraine's, and the BS chose to incorporate Nynaeve's AS testing to finish off her character growth and highlight some of the flaws of the WT.  While there are some issues with this scene, I am really glad BS made the decision to go with it, especially as it didn't change the final outcome for Nynaeve.

[Suttree]

As soon as something people have been picking apart is revealed to be written by RJ, suddenly it's not longer talked/bitched about.

Such as?

 

Further you seem to forget(conveniently ignore) how much heat RJ took after CoT around these parts. He was bitched about/picked apart constantly.

[Finnssss22]

 

As soon as something people have been picking apart is revealed to be written by RJ, suddenly it's not longer talked/bitched about.

Such as?

 

Further you seem to forget(conveniently ignore) how much heat RJ took after CoT around these parts. He was bitched about/picked apart constantly.

 

 

Such as? That's easy, Mat in ToM was a major sore point...that is until it was revealed that RJ had a lot to do with him in that book.

Oops, suddenly, amid a whole lot of feet being removed from mouths, it all but disappeared as a major sore point.

 

Conveniently ignore eh? That's rich.

First off, as you have pointed out at length in this thread, it's not fair to compare the mid point of the series with the end. Apples to oranges I believe was your exact wording. Until it's convenient for you to do so apparently anyway heh

 

Second, you know damned well the complaints through those books were about the time between them and the pacing, not the writing quality.

Apples and oranges indeed. 

 

 

As I have repeated through this thread, BS was not perfect, far from it actually. He deserves to be taken to task on some things. That said, it goes overboard or for lack of a better word, quite EMO far too often.

 

You can argue that you don't see it that way all you want. It is the way I see it though and I know I'm not alone.

[Suttree]

Are you being purposely obtuse? Of course it was about pacing and plot progression. That doesn't change the fact that people ripped him to shreds and said he lost control of the series unlike your seeming take that people treat anything he does as sacrosanct. The fact is RJ's writing quality is superior so it makes Brandon's at times fan fic esque, juvenile style stand out and he has been rightly called to task. Btw what you see here is minor compared to places like Westeros. Really the only emo thing that happened where those crying everytime an issue was pointed out. Think on how many old timers have disappeared in disgust at how things turned out. Aside from a few trolls people have given an honest assessement but from day one it bent you out of shape. Then again you rushed to defend authors like Salvatore as well so it doesn't surprise me you think the way you do concerning the quality.

As for apples and oranges why would anyone compare the two when it comes to filler, pace and the like? Of course no one would should do that. Your response doesn't even make sense. You implied no one ever harps on RJ and that is patently false.

Lastly for ToM the RJ Mat part was ToG. I need only one hand to count the people who mixed it up in saying it was bad and the most vocal one was basically a troll.

[Finnssss22]

Agree to disagree.

Apples and oranges when it suits you IMO.

Ah well.

 

As far as people no longer being around, there's a second side to that coin. Some have indeed left because they didn't like how it turned out but about as many no longer come around simply because they're sick of the excessive BS bashing and/or relentless battering they themselves receive if they even hint at finding the last books enjoyable.

Kinda like you're trying to do to me right now after I presented the way I feel. 

[Suttree]

no longer come around simply because they're sick of the excessive BS bashing and/or relentless battering they themselves receive if they even hint at finding the last books enjoyable....Kinda like you're trying to do to me right now after I presented the way I feel.

Critique ≠ bashing. There were a small handfull of trolls who took it into bashing but the vast majority of us have offered a reasoned critique and thanked Brandon for his work. Not sure why you are trying to present some revisionist history but let's look at what I said about the book for instance:

 

Suttree, on 16 Jan 2013 - 9:53 PM, said:

There were some solid sections and it's obvious Brandon worked on getting better at foreshadowing and adding some depth... I know some have complained about the ending but it was perfectly in line with what Jordan has told us all along. By the time we reached the final moments things just felt right to me and as Brandon said years ago I was deeply "satisfied" with the ending. It is with great sadness that I look back and wish that Mr. Jordan himself could have given us his version of this story he started so long ago. He was the Creator and I can only imagine the increased amount of "goosebump" moments like "Cup of Sleep" or Nynaeve gathering the Malkieri in KoD that we would gotten had he done so. That said I would like to profoundly thank Brandon Sanderson and Team Jordan for stepping up to the plate and finishing this story for us. We all owe them a debt of gratitude and great thanks for doing so.

Now just because I thought the above does not mean I am going to pull punches for the issues that presented themselves. Those issues jump out even more so on subsequent re-reads. Btw it's not just Brandon when people discuss some of the issues. Team Jordan and how rushed the books were get called out as well.

[Cybertrolloc]

And the known scenes from RJ weren't ready for pub either. It's not what Suttree's arguing.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

As soon as something people have been picking apart is revealed to be written by RJ, suddenly it's not longer talked/bitched about.

Such as?

 

Further you seem to forget(conveniently ignore) how much heat RJ took after CoT around these parts. He was bitched about/picked apart constantly.

 

 

Such as? That's easy, Mat in ToM was a major sore point...that is until it was revealed that RJ had a lot to do with him in that book.

Oops, suddenly, amid a whole lot of feet being removed from mouths, it all but disappeared as a major sore point.

 

I've seen more people use Mat in ToM as an example of Brandon's improvements with that book, only to be shot down.

 

Conveniently ignore eh? That's rich.

First off, as you have pointed out at length in this thread, it's not fair to compare the mid point of the series with the end. Apples to oranges I believe was your exact wording. Until it's convenient for you to do so apparently anyway heh

The point was that people have definitely shown willing to rip into RJ.

 

That said, it goes overboard or for lack of a better word, quite EMO far too often.

Emo? There are many better words.