THE METAL - End: Dinner for Wolves

[_CLOUD]

Yeah now I REALLY wont do these early game cases anymore

[Andrej]

 

Even here you're starting to differentiate between me and Cloud. You don't name us to a specific team but you're still putting us on opposing sides. It's unavoidable this game.

I'm saying that you are both playing anti-town and are unlikely on the same team.  I don't care which of you is mafia and which of you is a wolf...  That's the difference.

 

 

The difference is fine for now, we don't have anything concrete to make associations with yet. I also am agreeing with your thought process here that we couldn't be on same teams, that's what I meant by putting us on opposing sides. You're still wrong about me though.

[Niniel]

Not liking all the quiet players right now.

 

I hear you, Yates, but I would rather lynch AJ or Mish. I think that those quotes that you posted before were more scummy than Cloud´s posts.

[_CLOUD]

Ok so here are my current town reads:

 

AJ

Hallia

Yates

Pral

Despo

 

 

I'm unsure about the rest of you.

[Niniel]

why do you have a town read on Hallia?

[_CLOUD]

Her posts struck me as very genuine.

[Niniel]

These are the only posts from Hallia.

 

This is my metal

 

 

 

No trolling, TSO is the bomb diggety

 

 

No, you shouldn't. I like that you're open minded enough to be willing to back down when you're shown something that leads you to believe otherwise. I've seen a few people who go after people and won't let go no matter what the person says

 

She has not commented on anything game related at all. What is townie and genuine about that?

[Andrej]

 

No, you shouldn't. I like that you're open minded enough to be willing to back down when you're shown something that leads you to believe otherwise. I've seen a few people who go after people and won't let go no matter what the person says

 

She has not commented on anything game related at all. What is townie and genuine about that?

 

The last post you quoted from Hallia was in regards to Cloud unvoting me. I'd consider that game related. What's with you obsessively using the word towine in your posts? I think every single one you have pointed out how something isn't 'townie'. Not digging that. There's no definitive playbook on what to do as Town or otherwise. 

[_CLOUD]

@Tina: You are wrong to say that she hasn't made any game related comments. She wrote the second post when I was reaction testing AJ, and Pral followed up with a vote of his own. Her not taking a side in that argument is giving me a town feeling. The most important reason however why I think she is town is her third post which she posted after I defended myself against Despo's case. I think that a mafia Hallia would have jumped on my train because it was very easy to lynch me then, or she would have been obvious in her defense of me to try and gain town cred after I flip town (this move is much less likely in this situation because it puts her in the spotlight). Instead, she only agreed on my unvote but she didn't say anything else about her read on me. This is what strikes me as genuine in her play because it shows that she is thinking things through instead of jumping on easy lynches.

[michellem]

Tina, I still don't understand that last post about me, can you explain? I am honestly confused, I don't understand what you were saying.

[Pralaya]

@Tina: You are wrong to say that she hasn't made any game related comments. She wrote the second post when I was reaction testing AJ, and Pral followed up with a vote of his own. Her not taking a side in that argument is giving me a town feeling. The most important reason however why I think she is town is her third post which she posted after I defended myself against Despo's case. I think that a mafia Hallia would have jumped on my train because it was very easy to lynch me then, or she would have been obvious in her defense of me to try and gain town cred after I flip town (this move is much less likely in this situation because it puts her in the spotlight). Instead, she only agreed on my unvote but she didn't say anything else about her read on me. This is what strikes me as genuine in her play because it shows that she is thinking things through instead of jumping on easy lynches.

 

Seriously dude, that is a whole lot of fluff for one game related post. Her second post was neither for you nor for Andrej nor for me nor for anything that was happening in the game (I didn't even understand it). I kind of agree with you on her third post

[Darthe]

OFFICIAL VOTES of DOOOOOOOOOOOOM:

AJ (2/7): Laya, Tina

Cloud (5/7): AJ, Des, Mish, Verb, Yates

Tina (1/7): Kay

 

Not Metal (4/12): Len, BFG, Hally, Cloud 

 

 

“I have come to accept myself for what I am: Lycan. I am not perfect. I am not immune to fate, but I am not automatically doomed for being alive. I feel temptations every second of every day and I am not controlled by them. I do what I want anyway, so who is to say I want anything else? When I want, I let these peculiarities run across me like dogs to their masters. When I do not, I keep them at bay with my will and my testimony. I do not cut myself off from what makes me feel; I just refuse to feel anything that cuts me off from what matters most."

 

-Corey Taylor

[Andrej]

@Darthe - When is the DL again?

[Kaylee]

Unvote Vote Cloud

[BFG]

If you want a deadline I could give one.  I've been letting things sit for a bit.

 

Two Days from now.  

 

 

OFFICIAL VOTES of DOOOOOOOOOOOOM:

AJ (2/7): Laya, Tina

Cloud (5/7): AJ, Des, Mish, Verb, Yates

Tina (1/7): Kay

 

Not Metal (4/12): Len, BFG, Hally, Cloud 

 

 

“I have come to accept myself for what I am: Lycan. I am not perfect. I am not immune to fate, but I am not automatically doomed for being alive. I feel temptations every second of every day and I am not controlled by them. I do what I want anyway, so who is to say I want anything else? When I want, I let these peculiarities run across me like dogs to their masters. When I do not, I keep them at bay with my will and my testimony. I do not cut myself off from what makes me feel; I just refuse to feel anything that cuts me off from what matters most."

 

-Corey Taylor

 

 

Unvote Vote Cloud

 

So that's Cloud at L-1 with over a day and a half left to go.

[Hallia]

And also, Cloud hasn't claimed Doc yet, that leads me to also believe he's town.

[Andrej]

Lol.

 

Too bad there isn't one in this game

[Kaylee]

I had forgotten about the deadline. I just voted for the train I felt the strongest about. 

[hazelkrs1]

Sorry for the wait, got busy at work. A nice big 'ol wot for yall:

 

 

 

 

If you're going to act like an initial fos on someone was a trap or to kick start the game, don't pull the ol "oh man, maybe I really was onto something!" routine and keep trying to case the dude you fos'd. The original for was weak, scum means any antitown role so there was no slip imo. Except for a bit of possible AtE in some of his recent posts, AJ's responses to this whole thing seem fine to me.

But Cloud acting all upset that AJ isn't more suspicious of Pray and not just him reeks like hell. He's tried diverting focus to Pray multiple times. Then the whole Unvote rolled together with the "y'all will lynch me now anyways :sad:" AtE was just as obvious of scum backpedaling as you can get. Not to mention that Cloud seemed to try ducking AJ's question about whether Cloud thought him mafia or werewolf. A veritable orgy of evidence, as it were.

What use would a trap have if you don't follow up onto it with more pressure? I admit that my case was a bit loose but you can't really expect a bulletproof case right at the start of the game. I questioned AJ on every point that stood out to me, and the way he defended himself makes me believe that he is town. I'm aware that the initial FoS was weak; I already explained that I didn't find his post scummy but I voted for him anyway to see how he would react, and to get the game started. His reaction that followed was what I found pinging. I wasn't trying to divert the attention to Pral, because if I wanted to do that then I would have stopped going after AJ. Him being OK with Pral's vote, but not with mine was one of the main points of my case against him. He also didn't vote for me while thinking I was a wolf, but he has already disproven this point. I wasn't backpadeling; My reads on him only changed after our argument. Should I have kept pushing for his lynch instead while thinking I would kill a townie? I have also already explained that I thought he was a wolf.

 

 
Bold: Generally speaking, a trap is executed to nab scum who go for the bait. As in, you float a weak fos or vote or case on someone, wait to see who follows on with that weak logic, then reverse the tables on them and go "Gotcha!" or post a pic of Admiral Akbar. A trap where you float a weak fos on someone, then continue pressuring that same person just to keep up appearances... yeah that doesn't seem like a trap at all. Which is a big part of why I'm still voting you btw.
 
Italics: Huh? Who said you can't do both? Try to divert his attention to Pray, while also pushing for his lynch. Doesn't seem mutually exclusive to me. Anyways dude you DEF seemed to be trying to divert attention to Pray, you brought up him not focusing on Pray more multiple times.
 
Underlined: Well obv no, if you're town then you shouldn't push a lynch that you think is wrong just to keep up appearances. But it can be argued that it would have looked worse to keep your vote on him, so it's still possible that you pulled the 180 because you were concerned about how you would look. The fact that you included the AtE along with it ("I'll prob be lynched for this but oh well") makes me think that this is the case. As for you saying you thought he was a wolf, eh I might've missed that. I'll let that one go.
 

 

Also thought BFG could have been possibly trying to cover for a teammate, the way he tried diverting attention to Kay and Hallia for no apparent reason. If Cloud flips scum I'd bet BFG is his teammate.

Prob more I wanted to comment on but oh well, I'll try and fix my charger.

 
I don't like you trying to link me with Cloud.  I was commenting that I thought it interesting that a couple of players had posted while this was developing but they hadn't commented on it.  
 
And also, I'm a she.

 

 
Sorry if you don't like it, but it's a good scumhunter's job to look for possible connections. You think he'll flip scum and that you'll look worse?
 
So tell us WHY you thought it interesting that those 2 players in particular seemed worth remarking on. I hadn't remembered seeing anything significant either had said for some time, it looked more like you pulling two names out of a magic hat to try and distract town.
 

 

Oh gross.

Since you so strongly believe that I'm anti-town, which faction do you think I belong to? I'd actually like everyone voting me to answer that. Eventually we're going to have to differentiate between the two.

Yeah.  Why would we need to differentiate?  That's like saying we need to figure out who is mafia and who is an SK.  Screw that noise.  We need to lynch ANYONE that can hurt the Town.  Period.  Cloud might be anti-town, but he isn't on AJ's team.  And AJ isn't on Town's team.  I can vote either.  Right now, AJ has convinced me that he's the bigger threat.
 
Vote: AJ

 

 
Eh, I kinda agree with you, but I'm stuck on the whole "reaction test" defense Cloud is using.  Waayyyy too overused of a defense for sloppy early play.  When you put your foot in your mouth, own up to it and move on.....don't sit there and always say "oh well I was just going for reactions" or "well I was just trying for a little trap".  Go big or go home.

 

 
This.
 

 

Eh, I kinda agree with you, but I'm stuck on the whole "reaction test" defense Cloud is using.  Waayyyy too overused of a defense for sloppy early play.  When you put your foot in your mouth, own up to it and move on.....don't sit there and always say "oh well I was just going for reactions" or "well I was just trying for a little trap".  Go big or go home.

I agree with you, too.  Which is why I was initially still on Cloud.  At this point I feel like they are both sketchy and either one can go in either order.

 

 
Setting up lynches much, Yates?
 

 

Mish first don´t take a stand, just getting headache. Then after Cloud´s unvote she starts to think he might be scum. As others has already pointed out - we have two scum teams. Isn´t it possible that Cloud and AJ could be on each? Looks to me like Mish is looking at this from one of the teams.

 
I couldn't read at all if they were both town, both anti-town, or one of each. Then came Cloud's post where he dropped the case, and it made me feel like he at least was anti-town. Savvy?
 
So, in this posts you prod at both me, AJ and Cloud. So wich of us do you think are on a team with eachother? You speak like you think all three of us are suspicious, and since it's only two anti-town team, some of us must be teammates. So who is it you think?

 

 
I don't get why a couple of people are pushing this concept, that we need to differentiate between our scum reads. What's the point? It's just complicating the issue unnecessarrily. Maybe after a couple of flips, or closer to endgame it could be worth differentiating (since wolves have the NK, they seem like a greater threat to me, even tho we have a Seer). But for now, it seems pointless. And touting that you're doing it and others aren't seems weak to me.
 

 

Eh, I kinda agree with you, but I'm stuck on the whole "reaction test" defense Cloud is using.  Waayyyy too overused of a defense for sloppy early play.  When you put your foot in your mouth, own up to it and move on.....don't sit there and always say "oh well I was just going for reactions" or "well I was just trying for a little trap".  Go big or go home.

 
How have I been using my reaction test as a defense? Check my previous post #173 where I'm openly stating that it was just a reaction test before I proceeded with stating my suspicions about AJ.

 

When you started catching heat for the initial weak fos, you said it was a reaction test. THAT'S how you were using it as a defense.
 
 

Lol is pre-emptive AtE even a thing?  The part where I said that I would probably get lynched was refering to the next part where I admitted that AJ's last couple of posts have given me a town fibe, and that's why I would unvote from him. I wasn't appealing to anyone's emotions to spare me; I was explaining that my next move (the unvote) would be the death of me as is now the case. The reason my playstyle bothers me as town is that I tend to be a good Day 1 lynch candidate, while I only really start getting into the game after a Day or two. A townie that dies a lot without having to isn't helping town and that's why it bothers me.

Yes, preemptive AtE is a thing. And incidentally, there's some more AtE in this post as well, you bemoaning that you're always a day 1 lynch candidate.

 

I was asking more as a logic check to see where their thoughts were along with their vote on me. I know that I am Town therefore I wanted them to explain which side they felt I fell on to see if their logic was a fail or not. Even here you're starting to differentiate between me and Cloud. You don't name us to a specific team but you're still putting us on opposing sides. It's unavoidable this game.

 

 

Here's the big downfall to the argument: It can be debated what exactly constitutes scummy behavior, but at least there's still widely accepted scumtells.

 

However, what constitutes werewolf behavior? What differentiates that from normal scummy behavior? Is there such a thing as "wolftells"?

 

You see the problem? How the flip are we supposed to know if someone is a werewolf or mafia, even if we suspect them to be scum? We can look at evidence and analyze whether two of our suspects seem to be on the same team or not, but how in the world are we supposed to know which team on day 1? Maybe after some flips, and if we have at least one dead on each team we can look for connections, but at this point it is pretty much impossible to differentiate between the two anti-town teams if you're town.
 

Ok so here are my current town reads:
 
AJ
Hallia
Yates
Pral
Despo
 
 
I'm unsure about the rest of you.

 

No scum reads? I am disappoint.
 

And also, Cloud hasn't claimed Doc yet, that leads me to also believe he's town.

 

Was this serious Hallia?

[/serious]

[hazelkrs1]

Bahahahaha I typed /serious instead of /spoiler. My fault

[Niniel]

I will see if I can explain myself better.

 

I was just starting to think AJ was the anti-town between the two of you, and then you turn that 180? Hmmm. Would have preferred if you'd stayed your course and not backtracked;  now I'm uncomfortable with you again.

 

Here Mish seems to think that either AJ or Cloud is anti-town. But this is a game with three teams. Both of them could be anti-town on different or the same team. To me it looks like Mish already know about one of the teams.

 

 

 

Mish first don´t take a stand, just getting headache. Then after Cloud´s unvote she starts to think he might be scum. As others has already pointed out - we have two scum teams. Isn´t it possible that Cloud and AJ could be on each? Looks to me like Mish is looking at this from one of the teams.

 

 

I couldn't read at all if they were both town, both anti-town, or one of each. Then came Cloud's post where he dropped the case, and it made me feel like he at least was anti-town. Savvy?

 

So, in this posts you prod at both me, AJ and Cloud. So wich of us do you think are on a team with eachother? You speak like you think all three of us are suspicious, and since it's only two anti-town team, some of us must be teammates. So who is it you think?

 

 

 

 

I was just starting to think AJ was the anti-town between the two of you, and then you turn that 180? Hmmm. Would have preferred if you'd stayed your course and not backtracked;  now I'm uncomfortable with you again.

 

I don't see much use in pushing for a lynch I don't believe in anymore. I don't play like this to get a person lynched without figuring out if he is town or mafia; I was trying to pressure him to get a better feel for his game.

 

"I will probably get lynched now" = pre-emptive AtE, backing down from your playstyle "oh yeah doing this gets me in trouble, I should probably stop it"; if you're town, why bother that your playstyle gets you into trouble? Then it's the the time-old "reaction test" and "game starter"-excuses.

 

And then you buddy me in the same post. Not good. 

 

 

 

Mish first don´t take a stand, just getting headache. Then after Cloud´s unvote she starts to think he might be scum. As others has already pointed out - we have two scum teams. Isn´t it possible that Cloud and AJ could be on each? Looks to me like Mish is looking at this from one of the teams.

 

 

You have an interesting point about Mish not appearing to take the two scum teams into consideration. I also get the feeling that she is just watching from the sidelines, but she tends to sit on the fence a lot this early in the game so it isn't very telling imo.

 

And then you both slightly FoS me and defend me in the same sentence. Interesting.

 

 

 

 

Tina and Cloud, both anti-town, probably same team I'd guess.

 

Vote Cloud

 

 

Green - instead of replying that she is town she ask me who she might be on a team with. This is the second time that she appears to look at this from a anti-town team.

 

Hope that makes it more clear.

 

Also, Mish do you really believe that me and Tina are on the same team? The mafia team in this game consists of 3 members, and the wolf team of 2, so it must really be an idiotic tactic for two teammates to go after one person right at the start of the game and link themselves to each other so obviously.

 

You might be right about this but I think that people will play this game differently. Mafia and wolfs will probably not throw each other under the bus the same way they would do in an ordinary game. There are only two wolfs and mafia don´t have a kill so it´s important to them to save their team mates. It seems like some people goes out of their way to save AJ right now.

 

 

 

No, you shouldn't. I like that you're open minded enough to be willing to back down when you're shown something that leads you to believe otherwise. I've seen a few people who go after people and won't let go no matter what the person says

 

She has not commented on anything game related at all. What is townie and genuine about that?

 

The last post you quoted from Hallia was in regards to Cloud unvoting me. I'd consider that game related. What's with you obsessively using the word towine in your posts? I think every single one you have pointed out how something isn't 'townie'. Not digging that. There's no definitive playbook on what to do as Town or otherwise. 

 

 

I saw that as a general comment. Why do you have a problem with the word townie? No, there is no playbook but when I see things that I consider scummy I will point them out. Look at your own actions. Is it townie to tell us to kill you or Cloud so that you don´t have to play with him after a few posts back and forth?

 

@Tina: You are wrong to say that she hasn't made any game related comments. She wrote the second post when I was reaction testing AJ, and Pral followed up with a vote of his own. Her not taking a side in that argument is giving me a town feeling. The most important reason however why I think she is town is her third post which she posted after I defended myself against Despo's case. I think that a mafia Hallia would have jumped on my train because it was very easy to lynch me then, or she would have been obvious in her defense of me to try and gain town cred after I flip town (this move is much less likely in this situation because it puts her in the spotlight). Instead, she only agreed on my unvote but she didn't say anything else about her read on me. This is what strikes me as genuine in her play because it shows that she is thinking things through instead of jumping on easy lynches.

 

Okay. I get it. Still think some thoughts about who is acting scummy would be good.

 

And also, Cloud hasn't claimed Doc yet, that leads me to also believe he's town.

 

Ehm... Is this a joke or not?

[Niniel]

Where is Lenlo?

[hazelkrs1]

Wow, Tina, I like that. Tbh I had kinda been skimming over the back and forth between you and Mish cause I didn't really understand what you were getting at, but yeah that makes it much clearer. Hmmmm... not sure if that's a bigger deal than Cloud's "reaction test" thing. Thinking it over.

[Niniel]

I could vote either AJ or Mish.

[hazelkrs1]

The only thing that still bugs me about AJ is the AtE stuff. Funny since that apparently makes him look town to Cloud.

 

As far as Cloud, there's still a decent amount of stuff on him imo: The "reaction test" thing, the 180 after getting called out for the weak fos, trying to redirect attention to Pray, and a hint of whyme fryme since he included town reads but no scum ones (unless his scum reads were anyone not on the town reads list), plus he seems to have a buddy in BFG (didn't quote it, but she recently seemed to be remarking that we were lynching Cloud too quick or something).

 

In Mish's case, I'm thinking about it now and there's a pretty decent amount on her as well. I think I might just iso her instead of mentioning it offhand, see if I see enough to move my vote. Would be nice to have a good competing train anyways, and I'm still not really sold on AJ.