A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[Guest guga31bb]

 

the opnly part i had a disagreement with is the wedding night scene between Danny & Drogo. they made him out to be a vicious savage when in reality he was actually really gentle with her and didn't force himself on her.

 

I created an account to say I agree with everything you said. I LOVED the first episode of the series, except this one part. Drogo's supposed to be gentle with her! They end up having a great relationship!

[Shard]

 

the opnly part i had a disagreement with is the wedding night scene between Danny & Drogo. they made him out to be a vicious savage when in reality he was actually really gentle with her and didn't force himself on her.

 

I created an account to say I agree with everything you said. I LOVED the first episode of the series, except this one part. Drogo's supposed to be gentle with her! They end up having a great relationship!

 

He did seem gentle, he didn't hit her or yell at her. He didn't seem to know how to really communicate with her and didn't understand why she was crying.

[Red2111]

welcome to DM guga!!! feel free to stick aroudn and poke around the different Social Groups. loads of stuff to do in each and lots of different discussions to join in!!

 

 

Shard - first i love the Avitar!!! the yin-yang puts me in mind of WoT while the Dragons symbolize ASoF&I. very cool!!!

 

 

2nd, it was how he pushed her down right at the end that made the scene not gentle at all. in the book he didn't understand why she was petrefied either, so he backed off instead of forcing her; which in turn allowed Danny to gather herself and face the wedding night chin up and come to him of her own will.

 

even though they didn't speak the same language, the body language of being terrified is universal. in the book, Drogo recognized this and refused to demean his wife, there by allowing a very wonderful relationship between the two of them to blossom. with both sides learning eachothers languages and equally wanting to please one another.

 

in the show however, he seems a heartless nethadrel who did nothing more than dominate a poor & innocent terrified little girl who was basically traded for an army by her brother. it will make the veiwer assume that he thinks of her as property and even a concubine (considering the arrangment for the marrage). and if the directors attempt to potray the ype of relationship Danny does develope with Droago later on it will be veiwed as Danny having Stockhalome syndrom.

 

 

and really, the relationship that forms between Danny & Drogo is very important to how her character becomes strong and independent and a force to be reconed with. this is why people feel so strongly about them messing up the wedding night scene. it's not enought to ruin the show (unless your a rabid Danny fan lmao) but it cheats Danny's character out of something.

[Shard]

Thanks about the Avatar, I thought it was appropriate for this forum. :) Wish I could claim credit for drawing it. *heh*

 

As for the Danny/Drogo, it does look bad but then that's been a hallmark of this series. Give a impression of a character and then change that impression either through character growth or letting us see the other side of the issue. Sure it looks like Drogo just basically bought a brood mare but I think it's fixable. I mean Jaime drops Bran from a window, is having sex with Cersei and we haven't even gotten to the whole Kingslayer part yet.

 

I feel that the impression of Jaime is changed through the course of the books and if they can do that with Jaime (who I felt was the scum of the earth and now not so sure anymore). Then they can fix Drogo. I don't think it will ruin his character or show, he IS an agressive character afterall. I mean what he does to Visery's could be considered breaking his oath. Not that I blame him for doing it.

[Ananta]

Haha, I was just reading A Feast for Crows, chapter 11, where they mention "Archmaester Rigney" who "wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again."

 

I suppose he's referring to our beloved Robert Jordan, James Oliver Rigney.

[ClubCaved]

Haha, I was just reading A Feast for Crows, chapter 11, where they mention "Archmaester Rigney" who "wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again."

 

I suppose he's referring to our beloved Robert Jordan, James Oliver Rigney.

 

I just finished AFFC and the implication of that bit went right over my head.

 

Anyway, here's what I think's going to happen with Littlefinger/Sansa/Tyrion: Littlefinger's master plan is for Sansa to marry Robert's heir, and after she's had a child to inherit the Vale, Robert's heir will have a fatal "accident". Littlefinger will become regent all over again, marry Sansa and their children will rule Winterfell. Of course, Tyrion's already ruined part of that plan by not getting executed. I think Sansa's going to be an apt pupil and outscheme Littlefinger. I think Sansa and Tyrion will wind up being the 2d and 3rd dragonriders.

 

I'd say my favorite character is Tyrion, although I have a large soft spot in my heart for Dolorous Edd. I think the final line of the final book will be: Inspecting the last dragon, Dolorous Edd tripped over the tail and broke his neck.

[hjustinpace]

Haha, I was just reading A Feast for Crows, chapter 11, where they mention "Archmaester Rigney" who "wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again."

 

I suppose he's referring to our beloved Robert Jordan, James Oliver Rigney.

 

Yes. There is also a reference to Trebor of Tor, lord of House Jordayne, whose heraldry includes a quill.

[hjustinpace]

I only recently read the Song of Ice and Fire books in anticipation of the HBO series (which looks very good so far). It's a very, very good series, but any comparisons to The Wheel of Time are going to have to wait. Martin is already having issues by the fourth book; nobody was accusing Jordan of faltering at The Shadow Rising.

[Gentled Ben]

I only recently read the Song of Ice and Fire books in anticipation of the HBO series (which looks very good so far). It's a very, very good series, but any comparisons to The Wheel of Time are going to have to wait. Martin is already having issues by the fourth book; nobody was accusing Jordan of faltering at The Shadow Rising.

Jordan didn't write The Shadow Rising with millions of fans picking apart every detail in real time on the Internet. If aSoIaF was not kept under a microscope the way it is, Martin probably wouldn't be having trouble, either. Do you suppose that it might have held up the WoT series if by The Shadow Rising, everyone was pointing out and complaining about the discrepancies between the way Moiraine channels in The Eye of the World, and the way channeling works in the rest of the books? I do...

 

They are two different authors with two different skill sets and two different sets of writing conditions, but they have both written masterful stories (thus far), and the fact that they can both maintain consistency in such intricate tales leaves me in awe.

[hjustinpace]

I only recently read the Song of Ice and Fire books in anticipation of the HBO series (which looks very good so far). It's a very, very good series, but any comparisons to The Wheel of Time are going to have to wait. Martin is already having issues by the fourth book; nobody was accusing Jordan of faltering at The Shadow Rising.

Jordan didn't write The Shadow Rising with millions of fans picking apart every detail in real time on the Internet. If aSoIaF was not kept under a microscope the way it is, Martin probably wouldn't be having trouble, either. Do you suppose that it might have held up the WoT series if by The Shadow Rising, everyone was pointing out and complaining about the discrepancies between the way Moiraine channels in The Eye of the World, and the way channeling works in the rest of the books? I do...

 

They are two different authors with two different skill sets and two different sets of writing conditions, but they have both written masterful stories (thus far), and the fact that they can both maintain consistency in such intricate tales leaves me in awe.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

[Basel Gill]

God, King Robert is such a dope.

[Red2111]

lmao you have no idea Gill. you have no idea he gets worse too

 

okay, so i enjoyed the 2nd episode as much as the first. the ffirst part of the episode i have to say i was getting rather mad. the attempt at sympathy with Cersi and the whole "my first child died, he looked like Robert" yadda yadda yadda LIE was disgusting. she aborted that child because she couldn't sand a child of Roberts to mutilate her body *kicks the script writers* that woman diserves no sympathy, shes a coniving scheming nasty woman and diserves everythign she ends up getting plus more.

 

then there was the 2nd scene between Danny & Drogo. again WRONG!!! he didn't force her like that, nor did she ever feel demeaned enough to cry due to Drago.

 

my hackles are smoothed now with the Drogo/Danny relationship, now that their starting to follow the actual story line there. with the bed maid teaching Danny the ways of seduction.

 

 

the little boy who plays Joff is amazing!!! i tell you, they pegged his little nasty butt wonderfully. and i cried when Lady got killed. i had hoped that they would show Bran's dreams, but i think it's fine the way they did it. as we all know, there is a connection between the Starks and their wolves

[hjustinpace]

Am I the only one that didn't care for the acting performances for Joffrey and Tyrion in this episode? Regardless, another strong episode and better than the first. In particular, it captured the suspense that Martin is such a master in both the botched assasination and butcher's boy scenes.

[Elend]

Tyrion slapping Joffrey around was priceless. The entire series is now worthwhile just to see that scene realized.

[Red2111]

not to mention Jamie & Tyrion's little aside about him going to the wall and this part in particular

 

Tyrion: i wonder when the boy will wake. I'm very interested to hear what he has to say.

Jamie: I often wonder which side your on brother.

Tyrion: Oh Jamie, you know i love my family.

 

 

it sets up the mystery f who sent the assasin very nicely, just like the books do.

 

 

 

did anyone else notice Ned's facial expressions when he was talking to both John & Robert about who John's mother was. Sean Ben expressed guilt & almost pity when John asked if she were alive, then avoided the question with a "we'll discuss her next time we see eachother." then again with Robert, he had a guilt/shameful expression, and regret at it being brought up.

 

do you think GRRM told this actor about the ongoing mystery as well as the answer to allow for more depth. like what JKR did with Rickman concerning Snapes alliance.

[Hallow]

lmao you have no idea Gill. you have no idea he gets worse too

 

okay, so i enjoyed the 2nd episode as much as the first. the ffirst part of the episode i have to say i was getting rather mad. the attempt at sympathy with Cersi and the whole "my first child died, he looked like Robert" yadda yadda yadda LIE was disgusting. she aborted that child because she couldn't sand a child of Roberts to mutilate her body *kicks the script writers* that woman diserves no sympathy, shes a coniving scheming nasty woman and diserves everythign she ends up getting plus more.

 

then there was the 2nd scene between Danny & Drogo. again WRONG!!! he didn't force her like that, nor did she ever feel demeaned enough to cry due to Drago.

 

my hackles are smoothed now with the Drogo/Danny relationship, now that their starting to follow the actual story line there. with the bed maid teaching Danny the ways of seduction.

 

 

the little boy who plays Joff is amazing!!! i tell you, they pegged his little nasty butt wonderfully. and i cried when Lady got killed. i had hoped that they would show Bran's dreams, but i think it's fine the way they did it. as we all know, there is a connection between the Starks and their wolves

 

I'm actually really glad they skipped the dreams, it's one of the few things in the series I found extremely boring.

[Suttree]

If this means what I think it means...looks like Dance with Dragons is DONE!!!!!

 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/212603.html

[JenniferL]

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/04/dance-with-dragons-completed.html

 

It's done.

[Gentled Ben]

I only recently read the Song of Ice and Fire books in anticipation of the HBO series (which looks very good so far). It's a very, very good series, but any comparisons to The Wheel of Time are going to have to wait. Martin is already having issues by the fourth book; nobody was accusing Jordan of faltering at The Shadow Rising.

Jordan didn't write The Shadow Rising with millions of fans picking apart every detail in real time on the Internet. If aSoIaF was not kept under a microscope the way it is, Martin probably wouldn't be having trouble, either. Do you suppose that it might have held up the WoT series if by The Shadow Rising, everyone was pointing out and complaining about the discrepancies between the way Moiraine channels in The Eye of the World, and the way channeling works in the rest of the books? I do...

 

They are two different authors with two different skill sets and two different sets of writing conditions, but they have both written masterful stories (thus far), and the fact that they can both maintain consistency in such intricate tales leaves me in awe.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Why?

[Visar Falmaien]

Late in the discussion here!

My favorite PoV characters through the whole series have been Tyrion, Danaerys, Jon, and Arya.

 

(NOTE: THE FOLLOWING ARE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ UP TO AFFC!!!)

 

However, my initial assessment of Arya vs. Sansa has changed. I'm actually very worried about the road Arya's going down and how it will effect her. A

 

And I think Sansa has had one of the most interesting arcs in the series especially with latest developments. She's going to be an increasingly important political figure in the future as she has an excellent, if perverse, teacher for the Game, and she is also in a position of power, one of the few places in Westeros whose potential military strength have not been stalled or completely crushed. Here are the following potential maximum military strengths from the beginning of the series, but note that usually it is only feasible to raise a force about half the maximum strength. These numbers have since been severely limited and depleted with a couple notable exceptions. (from Game of Thrones RPG book)

 

The North: less than 45,000 (robb took about 20k and they still had harvest problems, many dead now or in fighting)

The Riverlands: less than 45,000 (the main battleground, most of these are now dead or part of another faction)

The Reach: about 100,000 swords (Renly's army this large, many killed from Blackwater fighting on both sides)

Westerlands: less than 50,000 (but paying for this force and others has severely strained Lannister money)

King's Landing: 15,000 + 50 ships (these are dead/changed sides)

Dragonstone: 3,000 + 150 ships. (dead/destroyed at Blackwater or with Stannis now)

The Stormlands: less than 30,000 (many dead from Blackwater, vulnerable to Dorne)

Dorne: about 50,000 (practically unaffected by the war thanks to Doran Martell)

The Vale: less than 45,000 soldiers. (mostly unaffected by the war thanks to Lysa and Littlefinger)

The Iron Islands: less than 20,000 soldiers + 400 ships. (These are all spread out and vulnerable to counter attacks)

Wall: less than 1,000 men, now likely hovering around 6 or 700. (vulnerable to Stannis and Others)

 

Let me elaborate on that by going through how I see each of the regions. Here are my projections:

 

1. The North has suffered extremely severe losses, its capital city/fortress Winterfell is a burned husk thanks to a genius squidlet and a certain bastard, and there is currently no one to immediately re assume the seat. Its provinces have reverted to local rule and civil war and it will take a long time for the place to pull itself together. Effectively no longer a major player, it's been depleted.

 

2. The Riverlands have suffered from the wars between the Lannisters and Starks the most I think, and thousands and thousands of people have been slaughtered or now face starvation because of the brutal tactics of both sides. So, safe to say the military strength of the Riverlands is also crushed, perhaps the most so of all the Seven Kingdoms.

 

3. The Westerlands: While not as devastated as the Riverlands, Tywin's military operations must have cost a lot of money and continue to do so, and with the Crown essentially unable to pay the Lannisters back I can hardly imagine that the Lannisters now have enough money to continue to field much of an army offensively. Plus with Tywin dead the area is now unstable, and there is no clear heir to the Lannisters except for a certain exiled dwarf (something I think will be important later as far as Tyrion's value to whoever he runs to) who technically is the legitimate heir since Cercei is the queen and Jaime forfeited his right to inherit in the kingsguard. I forget where Kevan Lannister is in all this, but he is also a legit heir for the present.

 

4. While the Reach hasn't been quite devastated, a hundred thousand men were in Renly's army when he marched up, a considerable force that much have been a nightmare to feed and supply, and it marched slowly. Furthermore, with Renly dead, Stannis and Tywin both took a large portion of the forces with them and these forces butchered each other at the battle of the Blackwater. Furthermore, the coast is now vulnerable to attacks from the Iron men. So, the Reach, while certainly still in the Game with significant resources and wealth (under Mace and Margaery), is vulnerable.

 

5. The Stormlands and Dragonstone: Storm's End and Dragonstone having been abandoned by the losing Stannis, they and their lands are most likely severely depleted of their resources (to field Stannis's attempts to get the throne) and the lords still there resorting to local power struggles amongst themselves. Meanwhile to the south,

 

6. Dorne, while having a nice little episode of familial strife in AFFC, has not contributed any considerable number of soldiers to any of the wars going on yet. Doran Martell sits and waits, and since he is eager to ally with the last of the Targaryens, he is the most likely springboard for any invasion by Dany and her allies if she does so. His army, while he uses it cautiously and defensively, could mean a decisive advantage since it's been for the most part out of the politics of Westeros and is still in great strength. No one trying to attack Dorne from the north will succeed if his army defends the passes (though a big fleet invasion might do the trick), and some day the Martells might march out in force.

 

7. The Vale: Lysa, while extremely paranoid, saved the Vale from the devastation of the Riverlands. She holed it up defensively and did not move aggressively, not unlike Dorne if done for less wise reasons. Now that Littlefinger and Sansa are in charge (well not so much Sansa but she has a great opportunity here as I mentioned earlier), the Vale, with the only other large military force and land not completely bankrupt or wrecked by war, could be a contender for any number of adjacent regions. Sansa could go up north to try to retake Winterfell and re unify the North (though this is a daunting task), or she could try to be a contender in the Riverlands (a bad idea in my opinion, most of the place is wrecked beyond repair) or make a direct go for King's Landing. Either way, she could potentially have some form of say in how two or three major regions are governed, and I wouldn't underestimate her desire to reconnect with her family and legacy and restore peace to the land if she stops being a "If I only had a brain" strawman.

 

8. The Iron islands. The Greyjoys are making some short term gains in their raids and attempts to conquer more of the seven kingdoms, but ultimately I think their style of rule will backfire on them. They do have a great strategy but what happens if a large army invades their home turf or defeats them in a naval battle? Their attempts to conquer the Shield Islands and the Reach around Highgarden might also fail. But their worst problems are from within; they could just as easily destroy themselves with multiple potential successors. They have an important role to play, especially since Victarion is charged with seeking Dany's dragons, but they've got problems and their standing force is very small for a land battle and their success is too rapid and unsustainable in the long run.

 

8. The Wall. Having lost maybe a third of its force north of the wall, the Night's Watch is in a very vulnerable position with too few men to defend all of the wall. At any moment an Other or Two could scale the Wall with zombie ladders or something and wreak havoc behind Night's Watch lines and make an undead army of their own. The Night's Watch also have a "guest" army larger than they are at the doorstep, and Jon has some extremely difficult decisions on what to do. He needs Stannis and his small army and any help he can get to defend against the threat of the Others, but he knows that in order to keep Stannis's support, he'll have to compromise on what the Night's Watch is and its future. We'll see what he does.

 

-Other-

Danaerys: Last we left her, Dany the Dragon Dame was in Meereen. She needed to continue to grow her influence in the area so she has a base army, and she needs to extend diplomatic and intelligence ties to sympathizers in Westeros and to know what in Seven Hells is going on over there. Meanwhile, her dragons are growing up, almost ready to be wielded as a potential airborne weapon, and she'll desperately need someone who knows more about dragons and how to ride them. Here I think that Tyrion is destined to play a role Also, he is technically the heir of house Lannister so he would have an incentive for joining Dany other than his interest in dragons: he potentially has a lordship to the wealthiest region in Westeros if he helps her win the throne.

 

(END SPOILERS)

 

So that's what I think about the situaton. Of course I don't think things will happen according to plan this is Martin we're talking about, and I expect both Sansa and Danaerys to have some serious setbacks if they have important roles to play. I really hope the Iron Born get a lesson in humility though. They have it coming.

[SingleMort]

I only recently read the Song of Ice and Fire books in anticipation of the HBO series (which looks very good so far). It's a very, very good series, but any comparisons to The Wheel of Time are going to have to wait. Martin is already having issues by the fourth book; nobody was accusing Jordan of faltering at The Shadow Rising.

 

But then there are twice as many WoT books than ASOIAF and don't tell me every WoT book was AS good or BETTER than the last. Because I love WoT but when it comes to rereading book 10 I'll be flicking through that as quickly as possible.

 

I don't what all the Feast For Crows hate is all about. Sure it wasn't as good as Storm of Swords, but then it didn't really have a chance to be focussing mainly on the secondary characters in POV. The only problem I had with it was Sam chapters (cause he's my least favourite character) and that Brienne's search took a bit too long. Overall in a long running series I think those are both minor issues.

[shinerfan]

Anyway, here's what I think's going to happen with Littlefinger/Sansa/Tyrion: Littlefinger's master plan is for Sansa to marry Robert's heir

 

 

 

 

 

Any theories about what's rolled up in those tapestries Cersai is sending Littlefinger? I'm guessing its the lost Targ sword "Dark Sister".

[Elend]

I really started to enjoy Sansa's plot in aSoS and Feast. Shame she won't be in Dance, but at least Bran and Arya will be.

[Werthead]

Joe Abercrombie interviews George R.R. Martin on-camera. Part 1 and Part 2. Grab 'em before Sky gets them taken down :-D

[Rufae]

I wonder (if the TV series continues this far) will they keep in the references to Wheel of Time? It would be a nice treat if so.

 

As for Littlefinger's plans for Sansa, I think he will marry her to the Vale kid, kill him off, and then marry Sansa. This would give him control of the Vale, Harrenhal, with potential claim to Riverrun and Winterfell. If you look at the map, that's nearly half the Seven Kingdoms. Of course, he knows nothing of Tyrion's survival and Robb Stark's proclaimaition concerning Winterfell.