The Seanchan: Past, Present and Future.

[hime]

I know I'll probably raise hell with this replay but I actually like the seanchan. No, I don't like slavery, I think it's wrong and should stop, I just wish it would stop in seanchan as natural cultural progress and not through outside influence or bringing the whole empire down, they are lovely people after all!
There are few points I want to discuss that I saw mentioned in this topic, first, the agreement between Tuon and Egwene , it didn't happen, Egwene lost her cool and channeled in Toun's presence ruining the whole thing! it was one of the few instances I rooted for a character I hate against a character I love and was very disappointed. still the result of that meeting is no agreement, Cads will have to make new negotiations or something.
Also Egwene is a hypocrite, she kept Moggi as a damane because it was in her best interest, but it is terrible for the seanchan to do the same .
About Tuon saying she can tear up the treaty..I would have said the same in her position, she is an empress of absolute power on her people, she can not be seen as weak or submissive to the dragon reborn, so she should show her dominance by pointing out that the treaty does not constrain her and that she is choosing to follow it. simple politics..she did not break her word yet and I rather think she wouldn't.
There is also a main point about seanchan that a lot of people seem to miss, they believe what they are doing is right, often people underestimate the power of cultural believes, the seanchan are born and raised thinking leashing channelers is right, they see nothing wrong in reducing them to pets, and no amount of argument will change that, I'll actually give you a personal example, I'm a Muslim, and as you may know eating pork is forbidden by my religion, you can argue with me for hours, show me statistics that says eating pork is good for health .I still wouldn't eat it. in fact even though I never tested it, whenever I say a dish of it on TV I feel a bit sick and imagine that it tests terrible, also, even though Qur'an specifically states you can eat it in an emergency, some Muslims would rather die!
This is not to say the situations are the same, but such is the power of culture on people, the seanchan might change gradually, and I believe in this case Hawking might help since he is as close to a god as the seanchan have. though I don't think his meeting with Tuon would have gone very smoothly if he outright denounced the a'dam, since she would probably suspect the AS of trying to fool her, maybe something more subtle, I honestly have no clue of how that meeting went.

But let us not forget that in essence the seanchan had gone through a lot of adapting in the last thousand years, according to the guide the armies of Luthier were shocked to see the practice of slavery when they first made it to the continent , but they adopted it themselves in the coming years along other strange customs, obviously it was not an easy life they had there and their hate for channelers was no longer connected to hawkwing but developed from facing evil AS that ruled the land then, so whose to say they wouldn't adapt again with the people of Randland?
Personally if I was The empress I would work on getting Seanchan back, then I would take down shara, if the 100 years where over by then, I'll just snatch the rest of the world muhahaha!

[Lord D]

@Hime, I actually agree with you that the Seanchan will NOT give up the damane easily.  However, as I've been saying, they'll now need male damane, and the backwash effect will allow the male damane to eventually take control of the sul'dam.  If one male damane remains unbroken by that stage, then the sul'dam will have HELL to pay, and will be an addition to my "bad girls who suffer fates worse than death" thread.

[northstar0]

Your theory rests on the fact that Seachan won't regain their homeland. I say because of the use of gateways,healings and other advanced weaves they learned from Elaida and will learn from Moggy they will regain their homeland quite easily The damane on the Seachan homeland know nothing about the new or the rediscovered weaves.Gateways by itself is an enormous advantage.

 

This is one of the points I've been waiting for someone to make.  The best example of warfare when only one side has gateways is Rand against the Seanchan at the Illian/Altara border.  Granted, it wasn't a pure victory, but he still defeated a force 10 times larger than his own.  If you were add in Mat's battle prowess, you would see that the Seanchan mainlanders don't stand a chance.  I'm not sure they would stand a chance even if someone consolidated power in Seandar and unified most of the continent. 

 

That being said, there's another side to this story that gives the Randlanders an advantage.  Damane can't link.  That means there are relatively few damane that can provide gateways large enough to transport wagons of supplies.  Also, the advantage of linking to create a super-powerful channeler on the battlefield is something the Seanchan cannot match.  Unless, of course, they abandon the a'dam. 

 

Now, on some battlefields, it is more advantageous for just a few chanellers to link, like the defense they setup around Rand at the cleansing.  However, for an offensive strike, the large circle that Demandred was running is the ideal situation.  Assuming the chanellers of the 4th Age wrap their heads around the new reality, cooperation between the BT and WT would allow for multiple full 72-member circles that could lay waste to any Seanchan-held city or military outpost. 

 

Quite honestly, I think that deterrant will keep the Seanchan from breaking the peace.  It would be a Cold War where Randland has the equivalent of ICBMs and the Seanchan only have small tactical nukes.  I think that dynamic would lead to a long, if uneasy, peace.  After the Seanchan continent is reclaimed, the balance of power would start to shift toward them.  Then, I think it's anybody's guess as to what the outcome would be of war with the Randlanders.  I suspect by that time the propoganda war between the WT and the Empress will have run its course, and whoever succeeded there will succeed in the war to follow.

[Suttree]

This is one of the points I've been waiting for someone to make.  The best example of warfare when only one side has gateways is Rand against the Seanchan at the Illian/Altara border. Granted, it wasn't a pure victory, but he still defeated a force 10 times larger than his own.

This one often seems to get twisted a bit. He did not in fact do that. The Seanchan had adapted to Rand's tactics and were closing in on his position.

 

TPoD

"We’re finished, here. Part of fighting is knowing when to go, and it’s time...Bashere knuckled his thick mustaches with a wry laugh. "You want to find them. Look out there." He swept a gauntleted hand across the hills to the west. "I can’t point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren’t in the way. I danced with the Dark One getting through them unseen to reach you. Maybe a hundred damanedown there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you. I suppose it isn’t always cheese and ale being ta’veren."

A 100 damane and 15,000 troops had targeted his position and were moving in. Rand had already ignored some advice and he did so again trying to use callandor which resulted in him slaughtering his own men/a pyhrric victory.

 

Btw TPoD has some of the most brilliant writing in the entire series. We can only imagine what the battles in AMoL would have been like had RJ survived to tell his story. The Damona Campaign was just so well done.

[PhoenixUK]

well the seanchan battles were more complicated in that both saidar and saidin were resonating from the near overload use of the bowl of the winds, coupled with rand using the flawed callandor during that resonance. If the damane had full access to calm saidar, and the asha'man had access to clean and calm saidin , who knows how the battle might have gone. 

 

 

The seanchan were set up because of Ishamael's influence on artur hawkwing - he mentions how he set up two dooms. The seanchan Return did of course cause a LOT of chaos - their little war with Ituralde in Arad Doman, the invasion of Ebou Dar, conquering Amadicia, the attack on the white tower, rand's battles with them in TPOD. 

 

But it also brought a lot of stability. Altara and Tarabon were overall more stable after the invasion. The attack on the white tower was the catalyst for Egwene reuniting the Tower (along with her own efforts, and Verin's help in the Purge of the Black Ajah). Seanchan forces helped Perrin break the shaido, and led to the breaking of Masema's dragonsworn. Tuon brought in seanchan forces to assist in the final battle. 

 

Overall - do you think Ishamael's plot to create the seanchan did more harm to the Shadow than good?

[Suttree]

@Phoenix

 

Interesting question but just want to point out that while Altara did gain stability(outside of Ebou Dar for the first time), Tarabon was pretty much in open revolt by the time TG came around and we know even in their own homeland the view of everything being "stable" was a myth. The Crystal Throne was not adverse to propganda and hiding all the revolts and rebellions happening in the Empire.

 

[PhoenixUK]

@Phoenix Interesting question but just want to point out that while Altara did gain stability(outside of Ebou Dar for the first time), Tarabon was pretty much in open revolt by the time TG came around and we know even in their own homeland the view of everything being "stable" was a myth. The Crystal Throne was not adverse to propganda and hiding all the revolts and rebellions happening in the Empire.

true, all the POV of seanchan soldiers mentioned that they had fought in various campaigns against rebellions, even against ones with damane. If there had been no seanchan invasion, how do you think events would have played out? I'm not sure how egwene would have united the tower. SInce she wasnt taken as damane, elaida would still be there, so it would have been a 2nd rebellion against amyrlin to get rid of her, and it would have taken so long that the Tower would prob not have reunited in time for Tarmon gaidon. I wonder what they would have done at that point, if told that the trollocs were pouring through caemlyn and tarwin's gap, would the rebels have Travelled away from tar valon and entered battle? 

 

Rand would have had to pacify tarabon himself - theoretically possible i suppose, and altara prob would not have been a big deal. arad doman was a mess from graendal's work anyway. 

I have only read AMOL once so i cant remember how much contribution seanchan soldiers and damane made during the battle. 

 

 

Also the seanchan forced Egwene to progress in the Power during her damane captivity, so she was a lot stronger than she would have been if she had stayed in the Tower without Liandrin's trick. Elayne seems to have progressed pretty well without it, however, so maybe it wasnt that big a deal. Egeanin helped Nynaeve and elayne in Tanchico, but maybe they would have done just as well without her. 

[avernite]

Well, scratch the Seanchan, and the Horn is never blown, Rand does not fight Ishy again, doesn't knock over Taim by accident...

 

Once the Seanchan are out, it's basically impossible to guess what would happen. Maybe Luthair would've kept Hawkwings Empire together? He seems to have been a pretty competent leader, but he might just have been assasinated/died all the same..

[northstar0]

This one often seems to get twisted a bit. He did not in fact do that. The Seanchan had adapted to Rand's tactics and were closing in on his position.

 

TPoD

 

"We’re finished, here. Part of fighting is knowing when to go, and it’s time...Bashere knuckled his thick mustaches with a wry laugh. "You want to find them. Look out there." He swept a gauntleted hand across the hills to the west. "I can’t point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren’t in the way. I danced with the Dark One getting through them unseen to reach you. Maybe a hundred damanedown there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you. I suppose it isn’t always cheese and ale being ta’veren."

A 100 damane and 15,000 troops had targeted his position and were moving in. Rand had already ignored some advice and he did so again trying to use callandor which resulted in him slaughtering his own men/a pyhrric victory.

The Seanchan did adapt, but right after the section you quoted, the Ever Victorious Army turned back in defeat.  I would also say that Rand had poorly defined objectives when he began that campaign, which is why he failed to do more damage.  He concentrated on one particular front when he could have taken the fight anywhere within the Empire.  That represents a lack of understanding of just how powerful gateways can be.  Plus, TG led to the innovations of sky-windows for battle commanders and dumping lava, or cannon fire, or anything that's handy on to your enemy.  I would argue that gateways have become far more effective weapons since PoD. 

 

Besides, Tuon may not need to wage an all out war for the Crystal Throne.  It probably wouldn't be difficult to coopt the resources of a rival simply by assassinating him/her.  When it comes to assassinations, only Perrin remains as a more deadly threat than someone who can Travel into your bedroom. 

[Suttree]

 

 

This one often seems to get twisted a bit. He did not in fact do that. The Seanchan had adapted to Rand's tactics and were closing in on his position.

 

TPoD

 

 

"We’re finished, here. Part of fighting is knowing when to go, and it’s time...Bashere knuckled his thick mustaches with a wry laugh. "You want to find them. Look out there." He swept a gauntleted hand across the hills to the west. "I can’t point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren’t in the way. I danced with the Dark One getting through them unseen to reach you. Maybe a hundred damanedown there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you. I suppose it isn’t always cheese and ale being ta’veren."

A 100 damane and 15,000 troops had targeted his position and were moving in. Rand had already ignored some advice and he did so again trying to use callandor which resulted in him slaughtering his own men/a pyhrric victory.

The Seanchan did adapt, but right after the section you quoted, the Ever Victorious Army turned back in defeat. I would also say that Rand had poorly defined objectives when he began that campaign, which is why he failed to do more damage.

Yes I mentioned that. "Rand had already ignored some advice and he did so again trying to use callandor which resulted in him slaughtering his own men/a pyhrric victory.". He had a solid plan and strong objectives going in. It's only when his growing megalomania caused him to first ignore Bashere's advice that things went south. Again the Seanchan were closing in and had adapted. He used Callandor and gained a pyhrric victory. It should have never gottent to that point in the first place.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here is something to add to the Hawkwing Tuon conversation debate:

 

From the Raleigh aMoL Signing: 

 

 

Q: The [offscreen] conversation between Tuon and Hawkwing, can you tell us anything about that?

 

Brandon: I can tell you that it did take place, and that Hawkwing is more inclined to agree with what’s going on in Seanchan than I think what fans expect him to be. Now, remember that Hawking was not fond of Aes Sedai. Part of that was not his fault, but he was not fond of them. He is not just King Arthur, he is Alexander the Great. King Arthur ruled through justice. Artur Hawkwing ruled through justice and ruthlessness. It will certainly be a conversation filled with emotion and passion, but I don’t think everyone expecting Hawking to take their side is understanding who Artur Hawkwing is.

[fionwe1987]

Here is something to add to the Hawkwing Tuon conversation debate:

 

From the Raleigh aMoL Signing: 

 

 

Q: The [offscreen] conversation between Tuon and Hawkwing, can you tell us anything about that?

 

Brandon: I can tell you that it did take place, and that Hawkwing is more inclined to agree with what’s going on in Seanchan than I think what fans expect him to be. Now, remember that Hawking was not fond of Aes Sedai. Part of that was not his fault, but he was not fond of them. He is not just King Arthur, he is Alexander the Great. King Arthur ruled through justice. Artur Hawkwing ruled through justice and ruthlessness. It will certainly be a conversation filled with emotion and passion, but I don’t think everyone expecting Hawking to take their side is understanding who Artur Hawkwing is.

Brandon seems to have forgotten that Tamika softened his stance considerably, and that Aes Sedai served as his governors for a long time. His fanatical hatred of all Aes Sedai was purely due to Moread. Before that, he had a problem with a specific Aes Sedai: Bonwhin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm inclined to agree with what you say fionwe1987. 

 

In addition to what you say, he is also apparently the unofficial "leader" of the Heroes (I wonder if he still leads them when the Dragon soul is in TAR?) and remembers countless lives he has lived over the course of who knows how long. 

 

I find it very hard to believe that Hawkwing with all of his memories - ANY hero with their memories - could really condone the Seanchan, nor believe the ideology that channelers are sub-human on par with dogs. 

 

I am not sure if this was Brandon's intention, but I choose to interpret  this as Hawkwing wouldn't be totally disgusted and rip the crap out of Tuon for her actions like we would. I don't think that Brandon means (or, he shouldn't anyway) Hawkwing would agree. 

I see it as Hawkwing being sympathetic and even perhaps admire the order it brings to the Seanchan - but ultimately tells Tuon that it is not the right path and channeling doesn't make someone an animal. 

[fionwe1987]

I'm inclined to agree with what you say fionwe1987. 

 

In addition to what you say, he is also apparently the unofficial "leader" of the Heroes (I wonder if he still leads them when the Dragon soul is in TAR?) and remembers countless lives he has lived over the course of who knows how long. 

 

I find it very hard to believe that Hawkwing with all of his memories - ANY hero with their memories - could really condone the Seanchan, nor believe the ideology that channelers are sub-human on par with dogs. 

 

I am not sure if this was Brandon's intention, but I choose to interpret  this as Hawkwing wouldn't be totally disgusted and rip the crap out of Tuon for her actions like we would. I don't think that Brandon means (or, he shouldn't anyway) Hawkwing would agree. 

 

I see it as Hawkwing being sympathetic and even perhaps admire the order it brings to the Seanchan - but ultimately tells Tuon that it is not the right path and channeling doesn't make someone an animal. 

I hope this is what he meant. It seems pretty clear to me that once he was a Hero, he should also have gained knowledge of Ishamael's manipulation of him. That, if anything, should make him more weary of his feeling for Aes Sedai.

 

But yes, I think its possible he might find some understanding for the Seanchan position. He may not think of them as evil monsters. But in the end, I can't see a conversation between him and Tuon where he endorses her position. If nothing else, he's been monitoring the battle at Merrilor, and should know what the Aes Sedai have been doing.

 

Which brings up another gripe... I would much rather have seen the Egwene-Tuon confrontation from Tuon's side. Or from both, at least. We know Egwene's opinion of the Seanchan. And with Egeanin, we get to revisit it even more. But what did Tuon make of Egwene? On the one hand, Egwene was manipulative and more or less dominating the conversation, making Tuon lose control. She first revealed her position as a former Damane, then revealed that all sul'dam could channel in front of Tuon's full court, probably meeting Tuon's worst expectations of Aes Sedai.

 

On the other hand, Egwene was the first escaped damane Tuon ever met and spoke to. And over the course of their "alliance", ended up sacrificing herself for the greater good. How does Tuon view that? How does she view the Aes Sedai who fought to the death? Its incredibly frustrating that we see none of that.

[Lord D]

Fionwe, I think Tuon would view Egwene as a marath'damane - one Tuon had to negotiate with, but still a marath'damane when all was said and done.

 

And if Hawkwing doesn't rip Tuon over the damane, then the Seanchan will have no reason to abandon the damane.  I think my scenario is looking more probable with the Seanchan going back to Seanchan, and beginning the training of male damane, and a breeding program, hoping one day to be able to invade Randland again.  I doubt that the powerful Randland channellers will be motivated enough to actually invade Seanchan, since this would cost a lot of lives, and there is the Dragon's Peace.

[fionwe1987]

Fionwe, I think Tuon would view Egwene as a marath'damane - one Tuon had to negotiate with, but still a marath'damane when all was said and done.

As Tuon said, there's a difference between a marath'damane and a Damane who escaped. That Egwene was the second was a huge deal to Tuon. 

And if Hawkwing doesn't rip Tuon over the damane, then the Seanchan will have no reason to abandon the damane.  I think my scenario is looking more probable with the Seanchan going back to Seanchan, and beginning the training of male damane, and a breeding program, hoping one day to be able to invade Randland again.  I doubt that the powerful Randland channellers will be motivated enough to actually invade Seanchan, since this would cost a lot of lives, and there is the Dragon's Peace.

And how exactly will they control male channelers? And who'll ensure the men don't die in the process? Or take control of the women controlling them?

[Lord D]

 

Fionwe, I think Tuon would view Egwene as a marath'damane - one Tuon had to negotiate with, but still a marath'damane when all was said and done.

As Tuon said, there's a difference between a marath'damane and a Damane who escaped. That Egwene was the second was a huge deal to Tuon. 

>And if Hawkwing doesn't rip Tuon over the damane, then the Seanchan will have no reason to abandon the damane.  I think my scenario is looking more probable with the Seanchan going back to Seanchan, and beginning the training of male damane, and a breeding program, hoping one day to be able to invade Randland again.  I doubt that the powerful Randland channellers will be motivated enough to actually invade Seanchan, since this would cost a lot of lives, and there is the Dragon's Peace.

And how exactly will they control male channelers? And who'll ensure the men don't die in the process? Or take control of the women controlling them?

 

Male channellers will be controlled using the male a'dam.  On your 3rd point, the sul'dam will try to break the men quickly.  Men who resist beyond a certain point iwll be killed.  However, I can see a scenario where one man slips through the cracks, and starts dominating the sul'dam.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Fionwe, I think Tuon would view Egwene as a marath'damane - one Tuon had to negotiate with, but still a marath'damane when all was said and done.

As Tuon said, there's a difference between a marath'damane and a Damane who escaped. That Egwene was the second was a huge deal to Tuon. 

"1362613340">

>And if Hawkwing doesn't rip Tuon over the damane, then the Seanchan will have no reason to abandon the damane.  I think my scenario is looking more probable with the Seanchan going back to Seanchan, and beginning the training of male damane, and a breeding program, hoping one day to be able to invade Randland again.  I doubt that the powerful Randland channellers will be motivated enough to actually invade Seanchan, since this would cost a lot of lives, and there is the Dragon's

Peace.

And how exactly will they control male channelers? And who'll ensure the men don't die in the process? Or take control of the women controlling them?

Male channellers will be controlled using the male a'dam.  On your 3rd point, the sul'dam will try to break the men quickly.  Men who resist beyond a certain point iwll be killed.  However, I can see a scenario where one man slips through the cracks, and starts dominating the sul'dam.

 

No sul'dam knows anything about saidin. So they can't control or do anything to the male channelers. 

[Lord D]

 

 

 

Fionwe, I think Tuon would view Egwene as a marath'damane - one Tuon had to negotiate with, but still a marath'damane when all was said and done.

As Tuon said, there's a difference between a marath'damane and a Damane who escaped. That Egwene was the second was a huge deal to Tuon. 

me="<p">"1362613340">

>And if Hawkwing doesn't rip Tuon over the damane, then the Seanchan will have no reason to abandon the damane.  I think my scenario is looking more probable with the Seanchan going back to Seanchan, and beginning the training of male damane, and a breeding program, hoping one day to be able to invade Randland again.  I doubt that the powerful Randland channellers will be motivated enough to actually invade Seanchan, since this would cost a lot of lives, and there is the Dragon's

Peace.

And how exactly will they control male channelers? And who'll ensure the men don't die in the process? Or take control of the women controlling them?

Male channellers will be controlled using the male a'dam.  On your 3rd point, the sul'dam will try to break the men quickly.  Men who resist beyond a certain point iwll be killed.  However, I can see a scenario where one man slips through the cracks, and starts dominating the sul'dam.

No sul'dam knows anything about saidin. So they can't control or do anything to the male channelers. 

 

I don't get that argument.  Men and women are able to link without either sex knowing anything about how the other sex's power works.  Effectively, the a'dam creates a forced linking, so the sul'dam will quickly learn how to control the male damane.

[Thrasymachus]

In the link, men can use saidar to strengthen and reinforce their weaves of saidin, and vice versa, women can use saidin to reinforce and strengthen their weaves of saidar.  In both cases, the leader weaves something using their respective power, and uses the other power to strengthen their natural weaves.

 

It's also doubtful the Seanchan have the ability to mass-produce the male a'dam.  It is doubtful that Semirhage taught any other damane how to make the male a'dam, and more likely she made the half-dozen or so in her possession herself.  Indeed, if general knowledge of how to make the male a'dam had gotten out, then Moridin, and eventually Taim would have been able to get some, and they would have come in useful during their Black Tower shenanigans.

 

Ultimately, the Seanchan Empire is self-defeating entirely because of its reliance upon the a'dam and the forced slavery of both sul'dam and damane.  I include the sul'dam as slaves, because, even though they possess high social standing and relative wealth, their culture alienates them from their true selves.  They are forced to deny that they can channel, when they can learn, and many of them are so close as to make no difference.  Now that they know the truth, their end of the a'dam will be just as much a collar to them as to the damane.

 

Even if the Seanchan retreat en mass back to Seandar, and Tuon orders everyone who knows the truth about sul'dam killed to prevent it from spreading, the Seanchan are doomed. 

[Sabio]

My guess is Semi taught someone since does she want to take the time to churn out male a'adm's herself.  So for me its safe to assume someone has figured out how to make them.  Putting the female a'dam on a male who can channel makes them die a painful death.  As for taim using them, it would of been a pain, since 2 women are needed to control the man,  So still would of just of been easier to turn them to the shadow.  You use the a'dam on 20 men it would require 40 women.  Not a useful way to use the BA.

 

 

As for Hawkwing at his death he was back to hating Aes'Sedai, even refusing healing.  I could see dead Hawkwing having mixed emotion about the slavery.  He might feel its wrong but remember rumor was Aes Sedai might of been behind the murder of his wife and kids.  So some hatred of them would probably still exist.  They formented rebelllions, got the other rulers to invade, might of been behind the death of his family, and tried to manipulate him.  Yes Ishy helped make Hawkwing hate Aes Sedai, but the white tower really didn't help matters.  Just because he died doesn't mean he suddenly knows Ishy was manipulating him etc. 

[Randlander123]

I think the Seanchan are abominable. They are by far the worst culture in Rand world. They practice the vilest forms of slavery for both damane and dacovale, employing murder, torture and mutilation. Sure, a miniscule number of slaves rise to considerable power but that is entirely dependent on their patron/owner and can be withdrawn at any time for any or no reason. They have a secret police empowered to torture and kill anyone at will excepting immediate members of the royal family and even they are subject to arrest on the word of the lowliest secret policeman. The Blood and even apparently common soldiers may murder anyone below them - peasants and merchants at least - in the pecking order so long as someone in the hierarchy above them has no objection. Their vaunted justice and tranquil order is belied out of their own mouths with tales of incessant rebellions needing to be put down and endemic assassinations among the aristocracy back home. Their cultural tolerance is a joke - sure they tolerate anyone who doesn't step one toe out of line with their culture in which case they are murdered in the most painful and public way possible to spread terror, as they did on Toman Head in innumerable villages. Of course, if you come across a super tolerant Seanchan like Egeanin, they just beat and humiliate you for being ignorant of their norms - unless you resist, of course, which brings us back to painful and public death. Most of the Randland societies are more or less awful - based as they are on medieval style aristocratic priivilege - but the Seanchan are almost Nazi in their criminality.

[DemandredFO]

Hawkwing I'm sure would still have his memories of whatever Bonwhin and other AS tried to do, but I'd think the compulsion or whatever ishamael used would be gone. Examining his memories from TAR, I'm sure he would recognize Ishamael, and know he was being manipulated. With all his memories, he might recognize ishy from the war of the shadow, since besides LTT and Birgitte we don't know if other heroes were there