Padan Fain (Full Spoilers)

[Barid Bel Medar]

One thing straight off: This is not a thread to complain about how much of a let down Fain was. 

 

It has been sufficiently noted in multiple threads. Yes, everyone knows Fain was a major disappointment to a lot of people. Do not turn this into a RJ/BS hate thread on Fain. 

 

This thread is for actual discussion about the nature of Padan Fain. Or I should say Shaisam. 

 

In the old tounge, the name Shaisam combines two words. "Shadow" in "Shai" and "Destroyer" in "Sam". 

 

We learn much of the evil of Shaisam. It is an old enemy of the Shadow - and of the Dragon. Yet at the same time it is something new. Created from a "seed". 

 

Also something to note is that Mordeth went to the Finns in search of a power to combat the shadow. It is likely the Finns provided answers/power that led to  the re-discovery of the ancient evil and turned into it's new form in Shadar Logoth. 

 

Discuss your thoughts on anything Fain related. 

[futurehermit]

I always enjoyed Fain as a villain.  When he was last seen heading into the Blight with Mashadar tendrils and obviously quite bad-@$$ powerful, it was pretty disappointing to see Mat put him down so easily.  To have him ending up not having much impact at the Last Battle made him seen like a major red herring in the end.  I really enjoyed reading theories on these forums about how Rand might push Taim into the Bore and use him a la how he cleansed Saidin.  I think that would have been a pretty fitting outcome for Fain.  I mean, he WAS introduced asap in the first book and had a major recurring role through much of the first half of the series at least.  He was a lot of evil rolled into one and I had hoped for more from him in the end.  I don't have any interest in bashing BS, as this could have been a RJ decision and, in the end, I'm still happy with the end of the series and, obviously, the series as a whole.  

[jack of shadows]

padan fain?please remind me again who is this guy?

oh yeah,the crazy creature with more names than the dragon reborn hahahaha.

he was kind enough to show us his ugly face briefly in the last battle, just don't blink

even once,or you may miss him/it.

unique to the third age my derriere.

file under absent without leave.

[huskylord]

One of my favorite passages in the entire series was Padan Fain torturing the Fade in the Shadow Rising.  

He made for some of the most interesting, dynamic twists to the overall plot.  Wished he actually had taken on a Forsaken.

Too bad.  The biggest let down of the series for me was that he ended up being a footnote instead of a major player.

[al'Lanis Morissette]

First impression of Fain when he was introduced was that he was a douchebag. As the series progressed, I came to appreciate him as he served as a "wildcard" in the story. That being said, his demise was rather...ordinary. A couple of questions do pop up though as I am typing my response:

 

- What would Fain's next move be assuming he managed to destroy the DO and Rand? Turn Randland into a giant Shadar Logoth?

 

- Since he was already marked by the DO when Mordeth possessed him, wouldn't that have killed him and Mordeth both? Since these two forces are diametrically opposed to each other, they should have "canceled" each other out. I'm doing a re-read now, so maybe I'll come across a passage that explains it in more detail.

[Elan Tedronai]

That scene with fain with the mother and child in lord of chaos instantly surpassed him above all villains in the books. This guy had a genuine villainous character.

 

he become a favourite of mine. What a shame it ended in a damp squib

Sorry BBM but there is no arc for fain in AMOL. Nothing to discuss

[Rhienne]

Tbh, when I read AMoL I had kind of forgotten about Fain, so I was happy with the abrupt resolution of his arc.  I felt he was more important in the earlier and middle books of the story, and that he had waned out of prominence for the last 4 or 5.  I've just started my re-read now, and am at the end of the EoTW.  I had genuinely forgotten what a wonderful villain he was at the beginning.

[shortkut]

I feel he was a victim of the story growing too much. It seemed like RJ kept him in the back with the occasional "hey look at me" and kept putting him off until later. I don't think we would have received more detail had RJ written the book

[Vambram]

If RJ himself had continued to constantly use Fain as a major villain, similar to the constant use of the Forsaken, then I would have expected to see more of Fain in the final 3 books. However, it is my opinion that it was the WOT fandom who had built up larger expectations of Fain compared to what RJ had in mind for this character. I believe that Fain's arc in the final 3 books followed RJ's outline of him very well. I also think that it was very fitting that such and megalomaniac personality was killed with a quick, ignominious manner by Mat. 

 

As for the Nature of Fain, Mordeth, and Shaisam, I believe it just goes to show that it was not wise for them/him to try to kill and replace Shaitan as the dark counterpart of the Creator.   

[Entreri]

He was one of the greatest villians of all time in any form of media (Darth Vader so forth level), far greater than Shai'tan, Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear and the rest, unique. 

 

Only a few had expectations he would replace Shai'tan, however one would think he woud have a better showing.  What was the point of building up such a character for 13 books?

[Suttree]

quote name="Vambram" post="2772041" timestamp="1359503644"]

I believe that Fain's arc in the final 3 books followed RJ's outline of him very well.

 

How would you even begin to feel qualified in making that statement.

[Vambram]

quote name="Vambram" post="2772041" timestamp="1359503644"]

I believe that Fain's arc in the final 3 books followed RJ's outline of him very well.

 

How would you even begin to feel qualified in making that statement.

I believe that Harriet and Team Jordan  made certain that Sanderson did follow RJ's notes and outlines.

 

Don't you?

[Suttree]

I believe that Harriet and Team Jordan made certain that Sanderson did follow RJ's notes and outlines.

Don't you?

Vam, I know you have seen quotes about how much less robust the outlines were than originally thought. We have no idea what was in the notes for Fain(so you can't say you're confident Brandon followed a strict outline for the character. I mean this goes back to you just defaulting to every issue being fine without any evidence to support why you think that) and Brandon had to create a huge amount of the details for scratch. For instance they could have said "Fain starts here and ends up at Shayol Gul" and Brandon had to create everything in between. Recall that the notes looked like this:

 

Brandon

The thing about the notes is that a lot of the notes were to him, and so he would say things like “I’m going to do this or this” and they’re polar opposites. And so there are sequences like that, where I decide what we’re going to do, and stuff like that. And this all is what became the trilogy that you’re now reading.

[Vambram]

Sut, did I say anything about a STRICT outline? No, I did not. What I did say is that I believe that Harriet and Team Jordan would have made certain that Brandon Sanderson followed the notes and outlines as left behind by RJ.

 

 

Is that a hard concept to comprehend?

[Suttree]

If I misunderstood you have my apologies. You said:
 

Vam

 

I believe that Fain's arc in the final 3 books followed RJ's outline of him very well.

There is no way to make that statement unless you where privy to RJs notes on the character and what they actually were.

[Nae'blis]

Could Fain have been the Pattern's response to the possibility of Rand destroying the DO? After all, Rand destroying the DO would do about as much to upset the balance of the Wheel as Shai'tan remaking it would.

 

The name 'Shaisam' does bear marked similarity to 'Shai'tan,' after all. I realize it is a stretch, but imagine:

 

The DO-Rand mind battle goes differently. Perhaps Rand doesn't spin his vision, and thus doesn't see that it wouldn't be any good to kill Shai'tan.

 

When he is pitched back into the Pattern, the Wheel senses things didn't go well. Shaisam kills Mat and goes into the Bore. Right as Rand is killing the DO, Shaisam lurches at him. Rand finishes off the DO, then turns to fight him. Shaisam gets pushed/falls into the Bore and Rand seals it up.

 

Thoughts?

[Simplman28]

I honestly thought they were gonna use PF/ Shazam ;) like the Agent Smith character in the matrix movies. Where he posed such a great threat to both the Dark Lord and Dragon Reborn that they were forced to kind of come together to balance things out. Can't be good without evil, can't be dark without light; but Mordeth/Fain/Shaisam threatens the equilibrium of it all. Especially when he started taking over trollocs with the mist. Guess there was just too much going on. Had to focus on the bigger stuff.

[wRAR]

Could Fain have been the Pattern's response to the possibility of Rand destroying the DO? After all, Rand destroying the DO would do about as much to upset the balance of the Wheel as Shai'tan remaking it would.

 

The name 'Shaisam' does bear marked similarity to 'Shai'tan,' after all. I realize it is a stretch, but imagine:

 

The DO-Rand mind battle goes differently. Perhaps Rand doesn't spin his vision, and thus doesn't see that it wouldn't be any good to kill Shai'tan.

 

When he is pitched back into the Pattern, the Wheel senses things didn't go well. Shaisam kills Mat and goes into the Bore. Right as Rand is killing the DO, Shaisam lurches at him. Rand finishes off the DO, then turns to fight him. Shaisam gets pushed/falls into the Bore and Rand seals it up.

 

Thoughts?

Yes, I've seen this idea several times and it sounds interesting.

[GregoryJackson]

My thoughts on Fain... I think he was the Pattern's failsafe in case Rand did not make the right choices. Imagine what might have happened had he not had his epiphany at Dragonmount and re-embraced his humanity. I think that when the first borderland noble would have struck him, he would have lashed out and destroyed them all and may indeed have lost himself to a madness that had noting to do with his prior exposure to the Taint. SOMEONE would be needed to deal with both an insane Dragon Reborn AND the Dark One, and that would have been fain. Had he killed Shaitan, the Shadow would have been destroyed, the force that is Shaisam would have become the new Dark One, thus resulting in the cycle beginning again. Fain was a pawn of the pattern from the very beginning, an ensurance policy spun into existance to make sure that if Rand did not make it to the Last Battle, the same result would be achieved, though without choice being part of it.

 

When Rand had his epiphany, the pattern no longer needed Fain, so while he might have been considered a Dark Ta'veren, whatever real influence he might have had on the pattern ceased.

 

Incidentally, I actually like that his end was so insignificant in the grand scheme. Fain always seemed to think way more highly of himself than apropriate. To his mind, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but with Rand conforming to the need of the pattern while at the same time influencing it, Fain wasn't even on equal terms with a stale crumb in rat poop. He existed to be used by every power but himself. The Dark One bent him to his will... Mordeth consumed him. and a one-eyed Ta'veren was the master of his fate.

 

I could be interpreting my impressions incorrectly. I'n sure someone will point out any flaws in my reasoning...

[Elan Tedronai]

You cannot destroy shaitan. wtf is new age thining? This is not dragonslance where gods die like dime a dozen.

 

Shaitan equals the creator. you dont destroy him. He destroys you if he ever broke from his prison

[mbuehner]

You cannot destroy shaitan. wtf is new age thining? This is not dragonslance where gods die like dime a dozen.

 

Shaitan equals the creator. you dont destroy him. He destroys you if he ever broke from his prison

 

This seems to directly contradict a good portion of the book, particularly the climax.

 

It seems the truth revealed was that the destroying the dark one would require stripping out all of humanity's free will to do evil. Whether this is a consequence of destroying the DO the way Rand had the power to execute, or rather something more cosmic (assuming the evils of the world would 'regrow' the Dark One should the Dragon smoosh him) is an interesting question.

[Nae'blis]

Elan,

 

Going into this book I would not have thought it possible that Shai'tan could be destroyed. I also did not buy into the theories that called for Fain to be used to seal the Bore, or any Fain becoming the Dark One theory.

 

I still take issue with the idea that the DO could be killed. But it is all we have to go on. Add that to Fain's rebirth as Shaisam, his ability to control Mashadar, the duality of the Wheel, and his descriptions of Rand and the DO as ancient enemies/friends. And it is clear that there is some significance to Fain.

[Treemaster]

Were we supposed to know who "Shaisam" was or recognize the name when we first encountered him?  My biggest thought on reading that scene was how did I miss any reasons to Shaisam before then.  Were there any?

 

Fain himself I never found to be interesting.  Just too much of a crackling stereotypical crazy bad guy for me.  Shaisam, now, might have been more interested if he (it?) had been developed more.  I was stunned by how little he played into the ending but not disappointed per se as I never cared for him much anyway. 

[wRAR]

Were we supposed to know who "Shaisam" was or recognize the name when we first encountered him?  My biggest thought on reading that scene was how did I miss any reasons to Shaisam before then.  Were there any?

We are supposed to know that it's Fain who chose himself a new name like he wanted in ToM.

[Elan Tedronai]

You are both clearly wrong.

 

This is what robert jordan says about shaitan

 

he Dark One has promised his
followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return.
In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My
question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy
to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little
people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in
his own image?
                                            

                                            Robert Jordan                                            

                                            

That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One?
You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to
believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their
parts—just check out the nightly news for confirmation—and at the root,
that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends.
Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because
they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all,
he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to
give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a
world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind
is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.

 

 

                                            Martin Reznick                                            
                                            

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

                                            
                                            Robert Jordan                                            
                                            

I envision the Dark One
as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the
Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of
balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I
know, but I think it works.

 

 

                                            Brandon from Mission Viejo                                            
                                            

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One
was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of
creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to
light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the
prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening
of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without
major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

                                            
                                            Robert Jordan                                            
                                            

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One
is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that
prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the
opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this
line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the
future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course,
the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

 

 

 

 

 

you are dealing with a god opposite to the creator. you cannot kill him. fain rand nobody can