Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

[mbuehner]

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

 

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

 

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

[InfinLuminous]

"it just makes Nakomi literally pointless"

 

It serves to show the Creator's concern for its creation, which is consistent with how the Creator was used in The Eye of the World and AMoL.

 

"Well, you could argue that words of encouragement are an active role, especially since its going to cause decisions to be made that radically change the future."

 

It was what Aviendha saw in Rhuidean that might radically alter the future, not the meeting with Nakomi. Avi was already on her way there when she met Nakomi.

[InfinLuminous]

"One interesting thing I saw Dom post over at TL is the possibility of a Nakomi/Tigraine/Calian link:"

 

Flimsy. Giving birth to someone important does not make one a Hero of the Horn. The other Heroes are all legends in their own right. Doesn't fit.

[damandred]

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

[mbuehner]

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

 

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

[mbuehner]

"it just makes Nakomi literally pointless" It serves to show the Creator's concern for its creation, which is consistent with how the Creator was used in The Eye of the World and AMoL. "Well, you could argue that words of encouragement are an active role, especially since its going to cause decisions to be made that radically change the future." It was what Aviendha saw in Rhuidean that might radically alter the future, not the meeting with Nakomi. Avi was already on her way there when she met Nakomi.

So Nakomi was essentially a buddy jesus showing up to give the world (the readers anyway) a big thumbs up?

[damandred]

 

 

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

Yeah but the meeting didnt happen in the tower and wasnt significant to the future if the AS. It happened in the waste were the future of the Aiel was at stake. Your senario was hypaphetical while mine happened.

[InfinLuminous]

"So Nakomi was essentially a buddy jesus showing up to give the world (the readers anyway) a big thumbs up?"

 

Good Dogma reference. Well played. sir.

 

But basically, yes. Personally, I find it meaningful that even though the Creator will not directly get involved and change events, that doesn't mean he has forgot about the world or doesn't want humankind to succeed in stopping the DO from remaking all creation.

[mbuehner]

 

 

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

Yeah but the meeting didnt happen in the tower and wasnt significant to the future if the AS. It happened in the waste were the future of the Aiel was at stake. Your senario was hypaphetical while mine happened.

 

Yeah but thats my point- your argument is circular. It happened because it happened, not because anything we've read made it necessary or predictable that it would happen. Thats exactly my point.

[mbuehner]

"So Nakomi was essentially a buddy jesus showing up to give the world (the readers anyway) a big thumbs up?" Good Dogma reference. Well played. sir. But basically, yes. Personally, I find it meaningful that even though the Creator will not directly get involved and change events, that doesn't mean he has forgot about the world or doesn't want humankind to succeed in stopping the DO from remaking all creation.

Love that movie. Ok i can see that, i don't love it personally but i could see it being consistent with what RJ stated.

[InfinLuminous]

I think it can be difficult because RJ wasn't 100% consistent with his statements on the topic. Which is fine - he's certainly entitled to have his thoughts on the matter evolve over time since it's his story.

 

"The Buddy Christ. Now that's not the sanctioned term we're using for the symbol, just something we've been kicking around the office, but look at it. Doesn't it... pop?"

[Suttree]

Although they have been sprinkled through the thread, might be helpful to summarize all the quotes on the topic so posters have them for quick reference:

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003
COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)
Robert Jordan
Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

 

 

terview: Jun 17th, 1995
East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)
Robert Jordan
Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Interview: Apr, 1997
SFX Magazine Interview (Paraphrased)
Robert Jordan
Thirdly, in defeating the Dark One, the good guys can expect absolutely no help off the Creator, and no miracles will occur.

Interview: Oct 12th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)
Question

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.
Robert Jordan
RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

 

So as we can clearly see, the statements on the topic of the Creator taking no part are consistent across the board.

 

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

PAUL WARD

Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

PAUL WARD

Neither confirm nor deny? What's up with that?.

This last one is of course a classic AS answer that essentially says nothing either way on the topic. Classic RJ in that instance. Important to note as well that the one in which RJ says the Creator is "completely removed" comes three years after the above.

Since Brandon states that the Jenn angle is "sniffing under the right tree" I'm really curious as to how that could apply to a Tigraine connection.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Suttree

[damandred]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

Yeah but the meeting didnt happen in the tower and wasnt significant to the future if the AS. It happened in the waste were the future of the Aiel was at stake. Your senario was hypaphetical while mine happened.

Yeah but thats my point- your argument is circular. It happened because it happened, not because anything we've read made it necessary or predictable that it would happen. Thats exactly my point.

Sorry mate , forgive my stupidity but not sure what this means.

Was Nakomi necessary whatever she was? Who wants any story to be predictabe?

Edited April 15, 2014 by damandred

[Sabio]

I don't thin Nakomi was really necessary, if she wasn't there would the story wouldn't of collapsed.  Avi could of known what the dread she was feeling from going through the rings again.  But Nakomi reinforcing Avi's already bad feeling about the future of the Aiel didn't really matter because after going through the ring AVI had decided something had to be done to change the Aiels fate.. 

[Arran]

 

One interesting thing I saw Dom post over at TL is the possibility of a Nakomi/Tigraine/Calian link:

 

It's an interesting detail in itself that RJ chose to make this pair appear masked in their archetypal appearances. It's easy to suggest that Calian and Shivan either aren't what people think they are when they are alive or maybe that their nature and role as instruments/agents in Prophecies remains mostly hidden from humanity (Tigraine proclaiming "I am the Maiden and Chooser, here to choose my mate and give birth to the man who will decide to end this Age and maybe all Ages while my brother will be there in position at the end if the Dragon needs to be killed wouldn't exactly go well with the populace...), that they go under the radar, or appear under more than one identities, both of which would fit the profiles of Tigraine and Luc, public figures of Andor who actually both played an occult role none have fully put together, one as part of Slayer (occulted) and the other as Shaiel (largely occulted). Shaiel made the choice to follow Gitara's foretelling and chose a lover in Janduin and gave birth, in self-sacrifice, to humanity's "choice", incarnated in Rand, following prophecy. Tigraine's choices set in motion the "beginning of the end of the Age", the last 20 years of the cycle, while Luc played his part all the way to the very last minutes of the Age. Luc also hunted down Janduin (and killed him, preventing him from becoming a Red Veil - not sure it's relevant, but I point it out, and preventing him from pre-uniting part of the Aiel, maybe starting a war among the clans) and hunted down Rand to the Pit of Doom, bringing in his throes Lanfear who manipulated him and Perrin who hunted him with the wolves, who killed both the Slayer/Hunter and Moonhunter, preventing them from killing Rand who had made the right choice, in the very last moments of "the Third Age" and very first of the Fourth.

 

It works even better if Calian/Tigraine returns as Nakomi to encourage Rand's "death and rebirth". Tigraine's choices, and Luc's Hunt also set in motion events that lead to Elayne taking the throne of Andor down the line, while setting Elaida on her path to take the Amyrlin Seat, not to mention the foretelling about Tigraine/Luc guided Tar Valon (Gitara and Tamra)and the confirmation it had been partly fulfilled with Rand's birth is tied to Moiraine's mission. For Luc, there is then the Dark Prophecy, heralding his final role with Lanfear in AMOL.

 

None of that is of course fully conclusive, but Tigraine and Luc certainly could fit the names of "The Chooser" and "The Hunter", while as for their archetypes it's harder to tell because Jordan never gave us terribly good clues to define them, except they worked as "heralds", thus most likely forerunners of the end of the Age and the birth of the new (which makes it very unlikely they're Elayne's twins, born after the Age already started... no one would really be in the mood to deny the LB marked the start of a new Age... not that it would matter anyway since the Age itself has begun whether humans acknowledge it or not.. it was to mark the beginning of the end with Rand's birth that was important to key individuals.e), they are brother and sister (literally or not) and we might surmise they fulfill their mission one way or another covertly/masked, so maybe they're heralds that go mostly unnoticed, more like forerunners than horn sounders... It sounds to me like those two Heralds are basically like incarnated Prophecy, through which direct agency The Wheel acts to make the Age spiral directly to its end first (by bringing the rebirth of the Dragon through Calian, and setting Shivan on his Hunt), then the new one comes - and Slayer/Tigraine do fit this part (even more if Nakomi is truly Tigraine).

 

 

I quite liked this at first, but I think there was one important thing missing when this was written up. Yes, they may be seen as "heralds" and I can certainly see how this was put together and how these conclusions were reached, but Heroes of the Horn are born into the world, not just come back as someone else. The only instance where a HotH wasn't born into the world was when Birgitte was forcefully removed from tel'aran'rhiod. Now, Mat remembers seeing Calian and Shivan at Falme after blowing the Horn when he is speaking with Birgitte in A Crown of Swords. So this implies that they had not been spun out by the wheel yet which means that they could not physically be Tigraine/Nakomi and Slayer/Luc.

 

Calian and Shivan would not have appeared at Falme when Mat blew the Horn if they were indeed Tigraine and Luc as they would have had to be born many years prior for this to be the case. Another thing I thought was that maybe Tigraine/Calian became a HotH by dying on Dragonmount after giving birth to the potential saviour of the world and this is why she appeared at Falme, but then this wouldn't apply to Luc as he is (I am presuming) alive and well (sort of) while the whole Falme thing is going on where both Calian and Shivan appeared together.

 

I may be WAY off with this so feel free to let me know if there's any massive holes in what I'm saying, just offering my thoughts! :)

Edited April 25, 2014 by Arran

[Dom]

Calian and Shivan would not have appeared at Falme when Mat blew the Horn if they were indeed Tigraine and Luc as they would have had to be born many years prior for this to be the case. Another thing I thought was that maybe Tigraine/Calian became a HotH by dying on Dragonmount after giving birth to the potential saviour of the world and this is why she appeared at Falme, but then this wouldn't apply to Luc as he is (I am presuming) alive and well (sort of) while the whole Falme thing is going on where both Calian and Shivan appeared together.

 

 

I may be WAY off with this so feel free to let me know if there's any massive holes in what I'm saying, just offering my thoughts! :)

 

 

 

 

 

Just to clarify how the original theory worked to make Tigraine Calian (with this caveat to begin: I'm not convinced Nakomi is Tigraine or Tigraine/Luc are Calian/Shivan, it's just one theory, because I can't reconcile how Elayne's twins could be born in the fourth Age and still be considered Heralds of the death of the Third Age. Tigraine isn't the sole candidate as The Chooser, though, for instance Gitara Moroso is another).   

 

Tigraine would be the last incarnation of Calian. She might have had another as a Jenn Aiel named Nakomi (seen by Bair in her trip in the columns, possibly, explaining her wary recognition of the name, an "ancient one") in their last days of existence.

 

Nakomi didn't appear to Aviendha. She's dead, she's a HoH and awaiting rebirth in TAR. She must have brought Aviendha into tel'aran'rhiod or a dreamshard. It might have been possible only because of the weakening of the Pattern and its barriers.  However, to Rand she appeared "in the flesh" at SG, as the Horn had called her like the other Heroes.  

 

The mechanism by which Luc is Shivan is a bit more complex:  we know that in Slayer one component is dead and the other is alive, yet "both are".  Luc was killed and the DO bound him to his living servant Isam somehow. Luc was the latest incarnation of the Hero Shivan, thus his afterlife takes place in TAR.  This (plus tampering by Shai'tan) would play a role in Slayer's ability to enter TAR in the flesh, thanks to the soul of "dead Luc" he carries in his body and who belongs to TAR. Something makes it possible for dead Heroes to leave TAR, we just don't know what. Something is behind the actual working of the Horn, and something similar or not is behind the trick Moghedien used to rip Birgitte out of TAR.  The Horn might be able to call Shivan into the real world with the other Heroes if Slayer is currently in TAR.  This happened in Falme, but did not in AMOL as Luc was out of TAR when the Horn sounded.  As we know, Heroes in the real world aren't affected by the call of the Horn (how do we know? from Rand who is a HoH, of course).

 

The process by which Luc was bound to Isam, or one very similar, might have been replicated by the DO (when the TP/OP streams touched in SL) with Moridin and Rand. The relationship was different, both were still alive.  In the advent that one died, Moridin and Rand would however still be bound, like Luc/Isam.  This could be part of the explanation of the transmigration of Rand's soul into Moridin's body, similar to how Slayer was able to exit/enter TAR either with his Isam living body, or with Luc's "TAR body" (able to survive much like Birgitte's was: because he was bound to a living individual). This might also be part of the explanation behind Rand's "powers" (the rest would be his knowledge acquired as he manipulated the Pattern to show Shai'tan his "creations":. he is both dead and alive, and capable of affecting the real world, shape it to his will to an extent, as if it was Tel'aran'rhiod.  

The connection between Rand/Moridin and their bond, and Luc/Isam and their bond, if Luc is Shivan, might explain in turn why Calian had some knowledge of all this and could guide/nudge Rand toward the transmigration.

 

Another related element might be the unique ability demonstrated by Rand to appear simultaneously in TAR and the real world (we saw it in TDR, and again during the epiphany).  I suspect that "ability" is a side effect of the erosion/destruction of the barrier between Rand's current incarnation and his former ones (at first only LTT, with the epiphany briefly many more).    

 

Finally, Nakomi being a HoH whose incarnations included a Jenn Aiel by that name would also work without involving Tigraine or even the Hero Calian, Dozens and dozens of HoH are totally unknown to us - RJ described but a handful of those present at Falme.  

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here is some more info from Terez on the matter: 

 

 

Terez ‏@Terez27  Mar 28

The "something deep in the notes" might have been as simple as this: Calian and Shivan are Tigraine and Luc.

 

 

 

Terez ‏@Terez27  Mar 28

It's the only thing that fits everything that @BrandSanderson has said about Nakomi. Why she had an interest in both the Aiel and Rand.

 

[Terez]

For the record, I made those tweets before I saw the notes. Not saying there was anything in the notes about it.

 

The way I see it, if Slayer was in the flesh as Isam when the Horn was blown (in TGH), then there should be no conflict. Luc's soul has to be dead and in Tel'aran'rhiod for the theory to have any purpose (i.e. for it to explain Slayer's powers). If he was in the flesh as Luc, I imagine he'd disappear.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. We will have to see if there is any clarification in the Encyclopaedia I guess. (If there is any to be had.) 

 

Nonetheless, even if it is before you saw the notes, it is a good point, and it certainly makes sense. I like the theory above any other, because it fits WoT more than any of the above. The Slayer problem is less of a thematic problem, more of a mistake/inconsistency, whereas most other theories - while they may fit one - don't adequately explain why Rand and the Aiel were singled out. 

[Terez]

Why do you see Slayer as an inconsistency or a mistake?

[jack of shadows]

there's something about the nakomi-tigraine connection that bother me,

can anyone tell me how old was tigraine when she died?

to the best of my understanding,the meeting between aviendha and nakomi did occur

in tel'aran'rhiod so nakomi's appearance means absolutely nothing(she could have easily

changed her appearance),but when rand returned from the pit of doom he saw an old woman:

"an old woman with grey hair?"

rand did see her in the real world,in the "flesh",so why mask her identity from her son?was it

even possible for her to change her appearance in the real world?

after all,tigraine couldn't have been more than 30 years old when she died.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Why do you see Slayer as an inconsistency or a mistake?

 

Apologies for the late reply. 

 

I saw on twitter you already addressed the issue, and I would tend to agree. 

 

But yeah, the fact that both Calian and Shivan turned up in tGH was the main issue I saw, with Slayer being alive. 

Of course, it's totally possible that Shivan/Luc could be forced out when the Horn was blown. 

 

I mentioned it as a possibly inconsistency like a kind of a tGH-ism because of the prophecy - "One did live, and one did die, but both are."

 

Perhaps at that point RJ intended Luc to have died and his soul returned to T'a'R, but Isam/Slayer retaining his memories and essence in whatever ritual was used by the Shadow. 

 

Of course, we find out in aMoL that Luc/Isam are soul-bound in the same body, but was this always RJ's intention? 

 

Besides, the Slayer PoV's are predominantly Isam who feels Luc as a lesser member of the two, particularly in the aMoL prologue. (Granted, this is just off memory and interpretation) 

 

Anyhow, that's only conjecture. I would be perfectly happy with the explanation that since Luc was the one that 'died' - even if he was merged with Isam- the horn would have the power to call him when blown. That Slayer is often in T'a'R is even better,as surely actually being in T'a'R when the horn is blown would make the call stronger and harder to resist (if it can be). 

 

It also brings up an interesting question about Slayer's powers. (Of course, I have no real evidence, again only conjecture) But we never really know why Slayer can do what he does. Yes, we get the explanation that the two soul thing lets him do the blinking between real/T'a'R, but it doesn't explain how he managed to reach T'a'R in the first place. Perrin manages it, but he was a Wolf-brother before the potential merging of souls with Hopper. It suggests that there needs to be an initial access to T'a'R for it to occur, and as far as I can recall, neither Luc nor Slayer had any Dreamwalking abilities. 

 

 RJ said that Slayer was a new thing, not old and that Slayer was not a corrupted Wolf-brother, so I doubt the Forsaken or DO could have guided him through T'a'R or he used the same method as Perrin. 

 

I'd suggest that aside from assigning it to the DO's powers wholly (which is valid), it was a mixture of the DO and Luc-as-Shivan. 

 

Basically, when Luc confronted Isam, he was defeated and killed. The DO - with the power to hold and transmigrate souls - caught Shivan-Luc's soul, who is a Hero. There is no indication that Luc was a darkfriend at any point, so it's probable that the DO didn't transmigrate him because he wouldn't be a loyal servant. Instead, Luc was merged with Isam, his killer, with Isam the dominant force in the merger. 

 

This way, theoretically the dominant Isam Darkfriend would have control over T'a'R with Luc's innate abilities as a HotH. 

 

Last of all- since this theory has gone way off topic, I'lll end it soon - Slayer would not have memories of a HotH if the DO caught Luc's soul before he entered the whole HotH T'a'R state. As we know, transmigration saves the person's memories from the previous life - as if they had not died at all. So in this case it would be sufficient to say that Luc still only had his Luc memories, as he had not fully 'died'. 

 

Furthermore the parallel between Shiva and Luc's role is noticeable. Luc's actions are consistent with Shiva the Destroyer, as quoted by the WoT-Wiki "

 

 

Shivan the Hunter is a parallel to Shiva the Destroyer in Hindu Mythlogy. Shiva is known as "the destroyer" or "transformer." the name also translating roughly as "auspicious one." This reflects the words that Jordan uses to describe Shivan, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be.

(underline mine)

 

I believe Dom or someone may have pointed something similar out earlier. This is similar to Luc's role with Isam/Slayer as well as the reference to the changing of Ages. 

 

@Jack - to get back on topic: HotH can take on any form they like, and they are not necessarily born - as we see with Rand/LTT - with the same physical features. After Tigraine died, she would no longer be Tigraine, but the Hero Calian. Calian is derived from Shiva's consort Kali in hindu mythology. 

A few quotes from Kali's wiki page, I'll not paste the whole thing. Kali can be seen as destructive and all that crazy stuff, but also: 

Kāli is the Goddess of Time and Change. 

 

Hence her involvement in the Aiel when change was most needed. 

 

As to her appearance, Kali in more modern times is associated with: 

 

Comparatively recent devotional movements largely conceive Kāli as a benevolent mother goddess 

 

This also lends to the theory that she wanted to help Rand not only as her own son, but as her role as a kind of mother figure in general. Nakomi's appearance is certainly appropriate of a mother goddess figure. 

 

Others have discussed the matter far better than I have I'm sure, that's just an outline. 

Edited May 6, 2014 by Barid Bel Medar

[mbuehner]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

Yeah but the meeting didnt happen in the tower and wasnt significant to the future if the AS. It happened in the waste were the future of the Aiel was at stake. Your senario was hypaphetical while mine happened.

Yeah but thats my point- your argument is circular. It happened because it happened, not because anything we've read made it necessary or predictable that it would happen. Thats exactly my point.

Sorry mate , forgive my stupidity but not sure what this means.

Was Nakomi necessary whatever she was? Who wants any story to be predictabe?

 

Oops, just saw this. Anyway, while nobody wants a story to be too predictable, most people definitely dont want things to have no logical connection to things happening previously (particularly when they would seem to have been ruled out by the authors off camera words). Dumping something in at the end of a story that you cant go 'aha! this makes perfect sense based on what i know from previous actions' is a bad practice in general. For instance, it was a big surprise and pretty unpredictable how Rand laid the trap for Ishmael and used Calandor with the TP, but enough evidence had been previously displayed to make it logically entirely acceptable. It was foreshadowed (and foretold) that this would happen, but how it actually happened was still surprising and novel. In fact if it didn't happen, we'd feel cheated.

Nakomi is different. She drops out of thin air in the Waste for a minute, and then pops back up at the climax of 14 books. Its not quite Deus Ex Machina given that Nakomi didn't actually save the day, but otherwise all the objections to deus ex machina are present with her. If those two scenes were stripped out, we'd be none the wiser that this character ever existed, would exist, or should exist.

[wotfan4472]

But it does fit in with the story. It gives us something else to discuss. I never actually thought that Nakomi could be Tigraine!!! At most a Jenn, but not Tigraine!! It would be something that would be introduced. I just wish we had more regarding her, hence the importance of the encyclopedia. As if it was not growing in importance by now. At this rate, we will be tooo stressed to even buy it let alone read it!!!

[Sabio]

Isn't the way Nakomi being described too old to be Tigraine reborn?