Moiraine's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[hjustinpace]

Why not? Nynaeve has been using herbs and traditional medicine much to the consternation or amusement of every other Aes Sedai in the series. It was a great moment of validation for Nynaeve in front of one of the earliest critics of her use of herbs. I thought it was a wonderful nod to one of her central conflicts with others. Nobody will ever be able to question it again because she can honestly now say that herbs and sewing saved the world.

Oh, I definitely see the logic, but for reasons I can't quite articulate it didn't work for me. Perhaps because WE as the reader have no reason to doubt her and nobody else was present to see it.

[Viperswhip]

Moiraine was, her earliest critic of using herbs, basically laughing it off as a crutch because Nynaeve couldn't control the power, or even denied being able to use it.

[Veronica MiHael]

I also find myself very disappointed with Moiraine's role in this book.  We read her heartbreaking death years ago and finally had hope in recent years that she was alive and could be rescued.  When the rescue finally went down in TOM I was ecstatic.  I thought the rescue by Mat, Thom, and Noal was awesome and read well. 

 

Since everything built up to it, as if it were one of the most important things that could be done, I was left really itching for some badassery from Moiraine from this last book.

 

I mean think about what was actually in these previous books leading up to her return!

1.  We have been wondering about that letter Thom was carrying around for ages.

2.  We have prophecy about mat weighing two Aes Sedai on a scale and I was sure we were told that resulting descision or implications would be vast.

3.  Prophecy of Mat's eye on a scale and I'm sure we were told he gave up half the light of the world to save the world.

4.  Caemlyn was left in ruins and many of its citizens died because Mat chose Moiraine over Verin  (uh...did he make the wrong decision?)

5.  Noal's death (Jain Farstrider sacrificed himself so they could hopefully escape!)

6.  All of the people who's lives she touched and who cared about her; Lan, Suian, etc (Good reunion time)

7.  Min saying Rand (or team light) would fail with out a woman who was long dead.

8.  Moiraine and her trip to Aielfinn land left many questions about the knowledge she gained.

 

What did this all lead to??  BUTKISS!

 

Since Moiraine died may books earlier, another character could have been developed since then that could have filled the role she played in AMOL...ANY other character.

 

Let's put it into perspective:  We have known for sometime that a Seanchan woman would help out Egwene, it was mentioned sparsely throughout the books and had no where near the implications that I listed above but what did we get?  Leilwin Shipless being awesome and honorable and Egwene finally trusting and putting away some of her hate.  It had extensive coverage in AMOL and had some weight to it.

 

Moiraine?  Not so much...

 

We deserved MORE on this subject! The previous books and foreshadowing demanded it!

[Viperswhip]

I agree I would like to have seen her more, but unless she is not one of the two into the SG with Rand there wasn't much opportunity. She is not an in the trenches fighter, especially not after her mellowing out, so where would you have her? I realize I am defending BS here, but there was simply no more room to have her in the book, there was a lot to deal with. She had to be in SG with Rand, that took her out of almost half of the novel. Given that the grand majority of the novel was one huge war, she wasn't that valuable as a character.

 

I kind of agree that she could simply have died way back in FoH, I would have supported that, and been saddened by it, she is one of my favourite characters. I agree that she was not in the book much, but I also believe there wasn't any room for her in this book. Nevertheless, she was important, read my earlier post. Her role is not so bad when you break it down point form.

[Veronica MiHael]

I do not believe she should have been charging a line of trollocs in the Last Battle but I felt there was time in the books where she could have been more useful and had her arc more fleshed out. 

 

Wasn't there time in the books in between when the other armies started planning and going to their respective battlefields vs. when Rand and company actually decided to go to Shayol Ghul?  I read the book quickly but there was time because I remember some Aiel Wise Ones I think complaining that Rand was procrastinating and he needed to get a move on.  Maybe it was Cadsuane.

 

And as far as space in the book.. I am sure there was filler in there.  Who cares that a character barely mentioned is gay?  what purpose does that serve in the VERY LAST BOOK?!

 

And what about that Mat chapter where he was sneaking into Ebou Dar and going to that Inn and finding out about assassins?  Pure Filler!  Galgan as an assassinator was a red herring. Brandon could have opened the Chapter with Mat scaling the Tarasin Palace thinking about seeing Tuon and thinking of the last times he's scaled large buildings for women, or his need for the Seanchan army and him wanting to talk to Tuon about that, and much more.

 

Mat's section in Chapter 11 I believe it was, could have been used to flesh out other arcs. 

 

On a side note though, I would have like to find out what happened to Valan Luca's troupe.  Say what you will about the guy, but his menagerie cover saved some major characters' lives and was a fairly significant plot point.

 

Oh an BTW, I am a total Mat Fan.  And if I think some of his sections could have been cut to devote more time to other characters who needed it, it was definitly FILLER.

[TheAngryDruid]

What arc? Thoroughly disappointed by Moiraine's arc after her return?

 

Wasn't her return supposed to be critical to Rand's success? Yeah, she made an impact at the FoM meeting at the tent (I wasn't a fan of that scene), then did nothing. Virtually nothing from inside her head. Except tea? 

[Duskfire]

Yeah the whole Moiraine thing was kind of weird. She didnt seem to do overly much that I could tell that another character couldnt have accomplished. Cadsuane could easily have taken her place in the tent scene rather then skulking at the back, that and Moiraine just came across as a weird zealot, talking about how the prophecy says they need to do it so they need to. She just didnt strike me as important at all.

[John Everyman]

For all AMOL did right, I must admit I was massively disappointed in Moiraine's role.  More a quantity thing than a quality; the few scenes involving her were great.  I nearly did a fist pump when she strolled in and stood up for Rand in the negotiations.  I also thought the scene between Rand and Moiraine involving the tea was very sweet.  I found her telling a dying Rand that he "did well" very moving. 

 

But the problem is, that's all there is.  We needed more interaction.  This is a character who has been missing for half of the series; give her some screen time.  I was curious what she would say to Perrin, to give an example, and all we got was her "squeezing his arm". 

 

I absolutely loved AMOL, but the two flaws that really hurt it for me are the lack of screen time given to Moiraine and Nynaeve (oddly enough, the two supporting characters on the cover).  To be honest, Nynaeve was hit worse than Moiraine.

 

So yes, loved what we got with Moiraine, just wished for a bit more.  Her journeying to Shayol Ghul with Rand is incredibly thematically appropriate.

 

EDIT: Just thought of something.  Do we know what River of Souls is about?  Because if that's Moiraine centered, I will be so, so happy.

[Rhienne]

Moiraine's arc was just a small part of Rand's arc. I do feel that she (and Nynaeve) were wasted to some extent. Standing around while Rand fights the DO is important but doesn't make for interesting reading.

 

I, like many others, had been really looking forwards to her reunions, particularly with Lan and Siuan. And we get nothing with Siuan, and cold civility between her and Lan!? That doesn't even really make sense to me. Surely they would be pleased to see each other?

 

I thought her entrance at the FoM was an excellent scene, but on re-reading it, she literally just quotes prophecy in reply to everything. A prophecy which we already knew bits of (all of?). I don't really see how her role is vital. I think even without her appearance the forces of the Light would have realised fairly quickly that they needed to work together.

[Dakota]

Moiraine had an arc?

[Sharaman]

Why specifically does Rand need Moiraine? We never learn this.
Any other saidar channeler could have been in SG with him. 
Did she tell him about Callandor's TP s'angreal ability? Or what?

[garryturk]

Why specifically does Rand need Moiraine? We never learn this.

Any other saidar channeler could have been in SG with him. 

Did she tell him about Callandor's TP s'angreal ability? Or what?

I ended up surmising this latter point was the case.  In one of Rand's POVs he mentioned something along the lines of "he knew Callendar's final secret now" but I didn't see any  direct hint to where that info came from.  Of course why Callandar was a TP sa'angreal in the first place is a whole different one; plainly there was more to the oddness about it than just the "manufacturing flaw" RJ talked about.

[Rhienne]

That knowledge didn't really change anything.  Rand was planning to use Callandor with Nynaeve plus one other female channeler anyway.

[Amandera]

Min found out about Callandor's flaws. Read that scene again. All Moiraine did was spout Karaethon Cycle in FoM.

[MarkDiLillo]

Moiraine didn't have a story arc and it was one of the deepest failures in the book.  Not much to talk about here.

[Ryrin]

I was very disappointed in how Moiraine's character was handled in the book. Th reunion was silly....she waltzes in and tells Egwene that she WILL break the seals? We hardly see anything of her on the book although I'm glad she survived.

[jjstraka34]

The fact that she told Egwene she had to break the seals wasn't so much the problem. The whole meeting at the Fields of Merrilor was a unmitigated disaster, one of the worst in the series, and throwing Moiraine's return into the middle of it just sucked the life out of her reappearance. And she never recovers mostly because Sanderson just doesn't know what to do with her, even though in theory she should be one of the easiest characters to get right. 

[Ryrin]

The fact that she told Egwene she had to break the seals wasn't so much the problem. The whole meeting at the Fields of Merrilor was a unmitigated disaster, one of the worst in the series, and throwing Moiraine's return into the middle of it just sucked the life out of her reappearance. And she never recovers mostly because Sanderson just doesn't know what to do with her, even though in theory she should be one of the easiest characters to get right. 

Sure it was. She was thought deceased, then arrives and out of the blue starts directing everyone and telling the sitting Amyrlin what she will do. That was terrible writing.

[Yamezt]

I saw her return more to do with Rand's choice in SG.

 

She was the first on his list of women who died (sacrificed herself for him). Rand has to make the decision to let us others to die for him again soon. Though I thought that could be linked better to Moiraine/Egwene when Rand was in SG.

[Threepy]

Moiraine felt soulless. When she first showed up I had a huge grin on my face (that was only equaled with the death of Gawyn) though the next chapter she appeared it felt utterly emotionless. Before the release I expected two scenes to make me cry, Moiraine and Rand meeting, and the death of Tam (which thankfully didn't happen) but it didn't feel like a huge event and, more importantly, she didn't feel like a huge event. 

 

Knowing the role she played in AMOL I really question the need to bring her back because I can't help but feel her persuasion at Merrilor and her aid with fighting the Dark One were grand enough to warrant such importance placed on her return from "death". I will admit this could partly be down to my huge expectations for the character though the writing didn't help. 

[probe907]

Let's face it, Jordan and Sanderson botched Moiraine's plotline. They did too much foreshadowing so that when the actual liberation occurred, we knew exactly what would happen, which killed the tension. Worse, since they freed her so late in the game, with so many major plots dangling about, they didn't have any space to give to her. So Moiraine fell from a major to a tertiary (if not minor) character, which is too bad, since she had been one of the best majors in the classic first 6 books.

Tell you the truth it would have been better if they had just let her die. Then her sacrifice (which was the only significant sacrifice by a major in the first 13 books) would have been far more meaningful. Same for Lanfear, her recycle-job never was as fun as the Lady Selene.

[A Bird in Seleisin]

It was really dissapointing, she practically spent the Last Battle clutching a rock :(, also am I the only one dissapointed that she didn't figure out that Rand was alive at the end? Nynaeve figured it out. Cadsuane figured it out. And she didn't? It seems like an insult to her :(

[Gisli]

Total dissappointment especially how Sanderson handled her most important role. She recites some prophecies which can be interpreted several different ways and everybody accept her opinions about the matters at Merrillor without any further argument? She was wrong about before (tSR) and both Rand and Egwene knows it. Are you joking?

[cfrancis1023]

Dblpost

[cfrancis1023]

Do I think Moraine should have gotten a couple more scenes?  Hells, yes.  But I'm of the opinion that her presence was vital at Merrilor.  Her participation was critical in:

 

1) Reminding Rand he couldn't be the Supreme Battle Commander AND fight the DO, and that one of the reasons LTT failed the 1st time around is that he didn't trust others to do a job for him.

 

2) Arranging for the Breaking of the Seals compromise.  She was the only Aes Sedai that could do it b/c she was the only one with Rand/Egwene from the beginning of their mutual journey.  Despite what some say, Cads could not have done it.  At best she could have influenced Rand to hand the seals over, but she could not have pursuaded allmighty Amyrlin that breaking the seals (albeit at the appropriate time) was needed.  I don't think Egwene and Cads even ever met onscreen. 

 

Given the way both Rand's and Egwene's arcs developed over the course of the entire series, I don't believe you could just "insert some random Aes Sedai" here.  Trust and power are heavily involved.  Just like in the rest of the series.  Debate as you will about how this was executed, but Moraine's intended Crowning Moment of Awesome was at the FoM.  It just happened so early as to be overshadowed by the LB.  But without the way Moraine steered the boat, the LB would have gone significantly differently.