Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Casco]

Very much wanted to see the scene where Hawkwing visits on Tuon. 

This!! We didnt get one comment from Tuon about this. One of the most Epic events in the last book just...left out??? Why? Hawkwing telling Tuon that she is wrong about almost everything must be one of the biggest events in the Wheel of time and we didnt get to read about it...and what did he say?? She STILL think she needs to leash channelers and so on. Strange.

[Entreri]

Mat did hold the army together and what not, but nowhere as impressive as what Rand and Perrin accomplished.  Mat was mostly impotent in this book .

He was not that effective because Demandred proved to be nearly as great a general.  According to Mat's PoV, if Demandred had survived they would have lost. 

[Duskfire]

Mat did hold the army together and what not, but nowhere as impressive as what Rand and Perrin accomplished.  Mat was mostly impotent in this book .

He was not that effective because Demandred proved to be nearly as great a general.  According to Mat's PoV, if Demandred had survived they would have lost. 

 

How does Demandred being around make him impotent? If anyone else had been in Mats situation, they would have lost, and quicker. Its not like if Perrin had been general he would have devised some way to take out Demandred. Mat constantly anticipated what the enemy was going to do and react accordingly, as was mentioned by many characters throughout the battle, particularly Galad who went from thinking that Mat was basically useless to almost admiring him. It isnt Mats fault that a) he was hopelessly out numbered b) the Shadow had more general firepower and c) there were spies listening to his every word.

 

Maybe I am too big a Mat fan, but I struggle to grasp why people think other characters could have done better. They couldn't have. Even Demandred was impressed, to the point where he just assumed Mat was a proxy of Lews Therin (or a disguise of his.) Not to mention, it was Mats idea to withdraw to one area in the first place, which essentially saved everyones ass.

[Rufae]

I thought it was cool when Hawkwing was asked "Do you know about the Seanchan?" He replied, "I.... am aware of them, yes." That was RJ's response in real life when he was asked if he had heard of Terry Goodkind stealing his ideas. I wonder if that was a reference?

[John Everyman]

I brought this up in the Demandred thread, but I feel it's probably more relevant here. 

 

I loved how Mat was given complete control of the Armies of the Light, and it was done in a fairly believable way.  I loved the scene where Lan slayed Demandred.  That said, was anyone else expecting Mat to kill Demandred?  I felt it would have actually been thematically appropriate.  He killed Couladin, an enemy obsessed with killing Rand, so I think it would have made sense to have Mat slay Demandred as well.

 

That said, Lan getting a moment in the sun was also great.  I was just really, really glad that Gawyn was not the one to do it.  I never hated Gawyn, but I was actually rooting for Demandred in their fight scene

 

Also, on the Hawkwing-Tuon meeting... I wonder if Hawkwing denounced the usage of damane?  That might be an important step in eliminating their use.

 

Finally, while Mat has had his fair share of out of character scenes throughout Sanderson's contributions to the series, I can't agree the scene between him and Rand was off.  That conversation, to me, immediately recalled their interactions from The Eye of the World.  The last time they had spoken was in Lord of Chaos, and by that point Rand was slowly but steadily becoming darker, and overall a much less pleasant person to be around.  I would have personally been annoyed if their was no warmth at all in their conversation.  Mat is always making light of everything, whether he's penned by Robert Jordan or Brandon Sandrerson. 

[Suttree]

So since we don't have a Tuon thread yet I'll put this here. In KoD she tells Mat

 

KoD

“This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are foolish about having the Power touch them. Half my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the Blood, too, I shouldn’t be surprised. But I wouldn’t have expected it of you.”

 

Yet in AMoL she isn't sure she should submit to it?

[John Everyman]

Well, that's a pretty blatant contradiction.  Err, compulsion from Moggy? 

[Treebeard]

Well, that's a pretty blatant contradiction.  Err, compulsion from Moggy? 

or has she fully assumed the identity as Fortuona *MSF* and can not behave as she did before,  risking to provoke large sections of the higher and middle layer of the aristocracy who are not so open-minded as herself

[Wingendosering]

No discussion of Padan Fain?  I quite enjoyed his end.  Quick, clean, no epic battle, just a simple stab to the chest.  I do wish he'd made his presence known a little earlier though, so he wasn't just a one chapter villain.

 

Mat on the whole didn't interest me much.  He's the only character that in my opinion died in the author transition.

 

Tuon/Fortuona I just hate.  I can't make myself like her.  I'm hoping to see some notes released about Mat/Tuon and the Seanchan threat post aMoL though.  I can't see them keeping the Dragon's Peace and if anything, Aviendha's change at the FoM will make it MORE likely that they and the Seanchan would end up fighting one another.  I thought Jordan said he wanted to write a spin-off series about Mat/Tuon after the main series, so I could see him having notes of some kind to explain what happens there.

 

I agree about wanting to see the Hawkwing/Fortuona scene.  Can't believe it was left out.

[Treebeard]

two sentences - not much :(

[Mr. Micawber]

Mat's strategy and operations were atrocious. Not as horrific and galling as Supreme Commander Elayne, but she's a special brand of moron.

 

His battle tactics revolved around Demandred, supposedly a brilliant general, taking the bait in a manner almost certainly reminiscent of the Prätzen Heights.

 

Which Napoleon pulled off because his troops were qualitatively better, and both he and the Marshalate were far better than their Austro-Russian counterparts. I really strain my imagination comparing this Mat to Mat in FOH or even KOD

[Finnssss22]

Mat did hold the army together and what not, but nowhere as impressive as what Rand and Perrin accomplished.  Mat was mostly impotent in this book .

He was not that effective because Demandred proved to be nearly as great a general.  According to Mat's PoV, if Demandred had survived they would have lost. 

 

Honestly, you really have to re-read and try to understand what was going on.

Mat had to keep Demandred busy enough to have to concentrate on commanding the battle. Mat couldn't appear too strong in any one place at any one time lest Demandred would just unload himself on that place.

All the while maneuvering Demandred into a position where the return of the river and the Seanchan would have the largest effect.

 

The keys to it starts when Mat was watching the gateway open letting through 500 odd villagers and 100 men of the Band to go guard the river, then pulling everyone off the heights in the beginning, then the time at which he went to take them back.

 

Anyone else leading and they would have been slaughtered and there wouldn't have been any moment presenting to give them a chance.

 

I have no doubt what so ever that this strategy was outlined by RJ in his notes. Obviously it would have been clearer and better done if RJ had have written it. That's not BS's fault, I can't think of many writers that could write battles like RJ.

[Duskfire]

Mat's strategy and operations were atrocious. Not as horrific and galling as Supreme Commander Elayne, but she's a special brand of moron. His battle tactics revolved around Demandred, supposedly a brilliant general, taking the bait in a manner almost certainly reminiscent of the Prätzen Heights. Which Napoleon pulled off because his troops were qualitatively better, and both he and the Marshalate were far better than their Austro-Russian counterparts. I really strain my imagination comparing this Mat to Mat in FOH or even KOD

 

Probably, but that is hardly Sandersons fault. The man cant help it if he doesnt have a talent for writing long massive battles that involves potentially millions of troops. Alot of authors have that problem, its a hard thing to do. I imagine its even harder to write for a genius, and a weird unpredictable one like Mat at that as well. I still found the battle extremely intense, and the sheer amount of death and destruction and just general chaos showed the horrors of war well. It was balls to the walls fighting, and the sheer desperation of some characters to just do what they could to kill the enemy.

[Crowl Rife]

 

 

Yes, it felt like Mat to me. Harriet was RJ's wife, confidant and editor from the very first drafts in the 80s until the day he died. If she doesn't know the characters then we as mere readers don't know them.

Sanderson admitted flat out that he botched Mat very badly in TGS and that got in to the books. Your are totally off her with the Harriet angle. Brandon had to create from scratch far more than anyone previously suspected and it isn't a if she is infallible. The scene between him and Rand was 100% cringe. That has no place in this series whatsoever.

 

I know what Sanderson has said and that's his opinion and yes, Mat felt off a few times in TGS.  But his behavior in ToM and AMoL didn't bother me at all as being out of character.  Sorry, I just don't read every single line and wonder if Jordan would have done that or if it's truly in character or not, nor do I let it ruin my experience of reading the end after I've been waiting 20 years for it.  It's a different writer, it's not going to be the same or perfect and I accept that.  It doesn't ruin the story for me and I find it a waste of time to nitpick over stuff like this.  Maybe Harriet will admit she screwed up someday, but until then, I have a hard time believing that after all she has gone through and how she's been involved with this series, that she would just drop the ball and pass something through to publication on a project this popular unless she felt it was appropriate to The Wheel of Time and to the story.  You can bring up dozens of examples and you won't convince me otherwise, sorry.

[Rhienne]

I have to say I enjoyed reading Mat's arc, although it fell a little flat compared to my very high hopes for it. I was glad that he got the opportunity to lead the Light's army - this seemed to be what his character has been building towards for a long time. I also enjoyed the way he was written in this book, especially compared to BS's other attempts.

 

However, I do feel the Mat of RJ is gone. BS's Mat is a well written likeable rogue, but he comes off as different character with different humour from the original Mat. Still, an improvement on the last two books.

 

Was nice to see some recognition for Mat from Egwene.

 

Not sure what to make of Tuon. I've never felt very strongly about her and this book didn't change anything there for me. The idea of Mat and Min just abandoning everything and everyone they know to become part of a completely different culture seems a bit unrealistic to me.

[Suttree]

@crowl

 

1. RJ mostly wrote Mat in ToM.

 

2. Although I admire your faith after all the mistakes Team Jordan has admitted and the way these last few books have turned out I'm not sure it is at all realistic. At some point you can't keep turning a blind eye.

 

@Rhienne

 

BS's Mat is no longer a rogue. He is a court jester prancing around in motley.

[Mr. Micawber]

*So don't spend the whole book doing that!*

 

Look, I keep bringing up FOH for a reason. Jordan gave Sanderson an excellent template. If, say, terez were tasked with writing this, she would have said, hey, why don't I look at how Jordan, a combat vet and trained in military theory, designed his battles. Jordan's big battles were not *written* simply as sheer destruction and what not. They were extraordinary. Sanderson doesn't have to copy word for word what he did, but for Christ sakes, how hard is it to reread the final battle of the Two Rivers, or the battle of Cairhien, or Dumai's Wells, or the raid on Illian, or the battles in POD?

[Suttree]

Oddly enough we know Sanderson approached Bernard Cromwell for help with the battle scenes but that didn't seem to help.

[Mr. Micawber]

For example, this makes me choke up and it's a fantastic climax to the battle

 

"Jaim looked doubtful, but then he brightened, a wide grin spreading across his face. "Wait till I tell Had Lord Perrin called me cousin!" And he darted away to tell Had, who would have children, too, and all the other boys who would, one day. The sun stood straight overhead. An hour, maybe. It had all taken no more than an hour. It felt like a lifetime."

[Treebeard]

@ sutt - I am very interested in why you think Rand-Mat scene was so bad - and could explain very clearly as for myself thought it very good

[Treebeard]

trouble

[Crowl Rife]

@crowl

 

1. RJ mostly wrote Mat in ToM.

 

2. Although I admire your faith after all the mistakes Team Jordan has admitted and the way these last few books have turned out I'm not sure it is at all realistic. At some point you can't keep turning a blind eye.

 

@Rhienne

 

BS's Mat is no longer a rogue. He is a court jester prancing around in motley.

 

Regardless of what they've said, I'm completely happy with what Sanderson and Team Jordan has done with the series.  Maybe I don't want to admit they messed something up, but I don't really care anymore.  It's obvious that I'm in the minority here so I'll just let it go at that.  Sorry to get off-topic.

[Duskfire]

@crowl

 

1. RJ mostly wrote Mat in ToM.

 

2. Although I admire your faith after all the mistakes Team Jordan has admitted and the way these last few books have turned out I'm not sure it is at all realistic. At some point you can't keep turning a blind eye.

 

@Rhienne

 

BS's Mat is no longer a rogue. He is a court jester prancing around in motley.

 

I admit the mistakes are there and yet i still enjoyed the book. I dont know why there cant be that view for alot of people on this forum.

[Finnssss22]

Anyway...I saw where the battle was going to end up as soon as Delarn was mentioned with the 500 villagers and 100 members of the Band coming through the gateway in FoM to go with Grady to stop the river from being stopped.

I kept it in mind as Mat maneuvered the battle and saw what he was doing, what he was setting up.

[hjustinpace]

I loved the way that Mat found the one group of people he could send with clear conscience on a suicide mission.