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Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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But honestly, lets assume Brandon had made her all sweet and cuddly, would her last scene make sense? when she told Mat she can kill him now that she doesn't need him?

 

She tells that as a dark humor joke. It's kind of obvious. And it would have fitted Jordan's Tuon as well.

 

The change is actually that she no longer smiles, and she no longer shows any compassion. She used to be reserved in public, but now she is downright mean and cold. That is not something that changes with the situation, people don't just drop their defining character traits when they get a promotion. Besides, her previous post - DotNM was pretty responsible, as well.

 

Any way, at least to me, when I was reading, I thought several times "Are we talking about the same person?"

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    I couldn't find anywhere else to post this (I haven't seen an Olver thread, maybe I missed it) and I haven't seen this topic discussed so I am choosing to post it here because it is most relevant in this thread:

 

Ok so here it is; Does anyone have a problem with the whole Olver blowing the Horn because Mat dying severed his link to the Horn thing? Don't get me wrong, it was an excellent part of aMoL and I thought BS pulled the scene off beautifully, my heart was pounding for Olver. I just don't think the logic of balefire really helps this theory. 

 

Balefire, as I understand it, slices a thread from the Pattern making whatever that thread has done, undone. This is why Mat was able to be resurrected in the first place. But to me, if balefire was able to UNDO Mat's death, that same balefire should have UNDONE the severing to the Horn. It doesn't seem to add up for me when I think, OK Mat was killed, severed from the Horn makes sense. HOLP UP balefire! aka Mat's thread goes in rewind mode, NOT DEAD, not severed, right? It just seemed like a continuity mix up.

 

I'm certain RJ had something in the notes about Olver blowing the Horn (Little Boy Blue style); it's kind of a GIANT portion of the Last Battle to not leave some sort of instruction. I think RJ planned to have Olver blow the horn all along, but the whole Death/Balefire/Severed thing to me goes against the very nature of Balefire itself. It felt a little Deus Ex Machina to me... Maybe someone can explain it to me in simpler terms. And again, I loved that part in the book, but the more I think on it the more I'm like "hold a tick, this doesn't add up."

 

-Pointer

 

I'm hoping that someone more familiar with the interview database will chip in here, but RJ confirmed that the death by balefire fulfilled the 'live and die and live again a part of what was' fortune told by the Finns.  Given that the balefire death was sufficient to fulfill this then I think it's reasonable to assume that it also broke the link with the Horn. 

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Balefire still leaves memories, which shows that the burning isn't a complete reset to the pattern. It isn't really a retcon, there were a few places that said Mat wasn't linked anymore, so you could work it out from the information available.

 

And RJ was always disdainful of people over thinking balefire.

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The Horn of Valere might well be the single most mysterious object in the series. I believe it predates the Age of Legends. It was never a certainty that Mat's link  to the horn had returned due to Rand balefiring Rahvin.

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Something that occured to me after finishing.

 

Does Mat's luck derive from his Ta'veren?. If so Mat is kind of screwed now as the 3 of them are no longer Ta'veren. He would essentially be a normal human albeit with the skills of a great captain and a master grade fighter. His luck was a huge part of him.

 

Perrin surely retains his funky Tel'ahran'riod crossover and teleportation skills, aswell as his super senses and wolf talking.

 

Rand, well his powers seemed to be replaced with one hell of an upgrade.

 

 

That leaves Mat out in the cold

Edited by Mitsobar

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Does Mat's luck derive from his Ta'veren?

Possibly.  I think other theories are that it comes from being the Hornsounder, or from being linked to the Shadar Logoth dagger.  Not sure if any have been confirmed.

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I'm going on what's been said before on this, but I'm pretty sure it is a part of the powers Mordeth obtained. Fain was a man who had "side stepped the pattern" and Mat's luck seems to take advantage of fate.

 

It's possible it'll be toned down if he isn't Tav'aren any more.

 

edited to add

 

Just a thought to elaborate on the side stepping of fate; but if the taint on the dagger damaged his thread in the pattern as evidenced by the loss of memories then it's possible the wheel has less of a hold on him (it can't even recruit him to the horn, the ultimate expression of the pattern's hold on a life thread). It doesn't bother the pattern if he wins more at dice or things go his way when there is a chance each way as this is built in to the weaving, but I guess bigger, tav'eren level things like drawing Verin may be beyond him.

 

This is harder to prove, but it's the vibe I get you know :smile:

Edited by Hyronimus

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Additionally, I found the fact that she thought about breaking her agreement with the Dragon's Peace almost immediately a pretty poor reflection on her character.  It shows a complete lack of honour and integrity, and that her word means nothing.

 

That happens in the books Sanderson wrote, however. I don't think that Jordan would have written anything like that.

 

Since Sanderson took over the books, her character has changed for the worse. There is Jordan's Tuon, and there is Sanderson's Tuon, and they are not the same person.

 

You shouldn't hold the deeds of Sanderson-Tuon against Jordan-Tuon.

I really hate how she was thinking of breaking the Dragon's Peace immediately after. The entire Seanchan social aspect of "straight eyes" got thrown out the window. Tuon was Seanchan to the core, especially in this.

 

She kept her promise to Mat, who was a male whore while she was the heir to the realm because of her strict ethical code. That she even considered throwing her word to the wind when half of her qualms about the westlanders were that they swore evening promises even to the most sacred of oaths is so profoundly a repudiation of her beliefs.

 

I really think Sanderson, despite being a great author, lacks the sympatico to relate with Aiel/Seanchan. Some authors are great at some things and sometimes their lack of talent in another thing is simply saddening. Even the Sharans weren't written with a cultural/social tint despite the mention of their mentality that one can only fall, not rise, and the opportunity presented because Jordan had not touched on them.

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Did we ever hear mat was linked to the horn in an interview or only in the books? Maybe there never was a link and only intentions allow the horn to work

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Did we ever hear mat was linked to the horn in an interview or only in the books? Maybe there never was a link and only intentions allow the horn to work

 

No, Mat was never linked to the horn, as he is told by Artur Hawkwing in AMoL.

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Did we ever hear mat was linked to the horn in an interview or only in the books? Maybe there never was a link and only intentions allow the horn to work

 

No, Mat was never linked to the horn, as he is told by Artur Hawkwing in AMoL.

We are talking about Hornsounder, not Hero of the Horn here.

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Did we ever hear mat was linked to the horn in an interview or only in the books? Maybe there never was a link and only intentions allow the horn to work

 

No, Mat was never linked to the horn, as he is told by Artur Hawkwing in AMoL.

We are talking about Hornsounder, not Hero of the Horn here.

that's what I meant. 

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Did we ever hear mat was linked to the horn in an interview or only in the books? Maybe there never was a link and only intentions allow the horn to work

 

No, Mat was never linked to the horn, as he is told by Artur Hawkwing in AMoL.

We are talking about Hornsounder, not Hero of the Horn here.

that's what I meant. 

 

Heroes told Mat he is not a bloody Hero of the Horn. Heroes told Mat he was linked to the Horn as the Hornsounder until Rahvin's attack.

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Did we ever hear mat was linked to the horn in an interview or only in the books? Maybe there never was a link and only intentions allow the horn to work

 

No, Mat was never linked to the horn, as he is told by Artur Hawkwing in AMoL.

 

 

We are talking about Hornsounder, not Hero of the Horn here.

 

 

that's what I meant.

 

 

 

Heroes told Mat he is not a bloody Hero of the Horn. Heroes told Mat he was linked to the Horn as the Hornsounder until Rahvin's attack.

 

 

The undertone of that entire conversation, at least IMO, is that Mat's soul is not a Hero of the Horn because Mat's soul chooses not to be one.

 

If people haven't noticed by now, it's a recurring theme for Mat.

He's not a womanizer, yet he still leers at every woman in sight, with the intention of setting them up with one of his friends of course.

He's no bloody Lord, yet he is now among one of the highest ones in the land.

He's no bloody Hero, yet always ends up as one, one of the greatest ones of this age.

Edited by Finnssss

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I personally think Mat's character was great all the way. His interaction with Rand was spot on. And it was funny. Also Tuon almost signed a treaty when Rand went alone, just because he is ta'veren. He was very dark then, the Rand that came to Ebou Dar was a different one, and Mat was also there, so it was inevitable that Tuon would easily sign, even if it was unbelievable, sup rising Rand and Mat themselves as well.

 

And some seem to forget that Mat knew he would have to go to the last battle, but he was usually driven by instinct and tried to explain his instinct in his "unresponsible" way. So he went to Ebou Dar, because of his instinct and came up with an explanation that suited his character - meaning he wants to stay away from the last battle. His "we must go and save Egwene" scene sounded a bit childish, and didn't really sound like Mat. But if you know Mat, you probably know that before saying that he was probably torn and thinking why always me, and I have to save your ass again.

 

If this book was written at the pace all the other books were, with every character thought clearly explained and motives clarified, it would have been another 3000 pages. I think the series simply came to the point where you have to figure it out.

 

About Galad's foxhead medallion. It was not Mat's medallion, it was one of the copies Elayne gave him, or actually he requested from her for allowing her to study it. There was a clear indication of that somewhere in the book. I can't imagine Mat giving up his own.

 

I also thought at some point Mat would go and kill Demandred himself, but it was not to be. He had to balance the entire battle. 

 

About Gawyn and Galad, for the time they occupied Demandred, he was not killing others. But to me that part was a bit off. I can't imagine a forsaken obsessed to duel Lews Therin go and duel with others all the time, and even if he can't channel at them directly, there are many ways to kill them off quickly, when you are in a full circle.

 

And as much as I didn't like Gawyn, his sacrifice was actually necessary. The moment he put on the ring he was going to die, and if he didn't Egwene wouldn't have gotten out of the Sharan camp.

 

Some people here seem to imagine Arthur Hawkwing would tell Tuon how wrong she was. But he didn't like Aes Sedai and he besieged Tar Valon, so he might as well have approved.

 

And Mat also wants to be rid of them. In previous books it becomes clear that it doesn't matter if they are family, just leave him alone. Of course he goes and saves them, because that's who Mat is, but he wants nothing to do women or men who can channel. He avoids Rand for quite long. So, I'm not saying he approves of damane and the way Seanchans treat them, but I can easily imagine him leaving the subject to deal with later.

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Some people here seem to imagine Arthur Hawkwing would tell Tuon how wrong she was. But he didn't like Aes Sedai and he besieged Tar Valon, so he might as well have approved.

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

You're leaving out the crucial context: Hawkwing's besieging of Tar Valon, and vilification, so to speak, of the Aes Sedai was driven by the machinations of Ishamael, under the guise of Jalwin Moerad. A man who would also drive Hawkwing to send his armies overseas, to Shara & Seanchan, contributing massively to the destabilization of what might very well may have been the most unified realm since the Age of Legends.

 

Ishamael, also would see to the downfall of the High King's consolidation, following his death. A death which may have been avoided, had Ishamael also not exerted his influence in causing Hawkwing to refuse Aes Sedai healing upon his deathbed.

 

_____

 

 

Personally I think the 'Oh let's have Mat chat with Hawkwing, hey could you talk to Tuon for me yuk yuk' conversation was lame fan-service...

 

Anyway, for the factual bit concerning Hawkwing's warped motivations, there you go.

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If this book was written at the pace all the other books were, with every character thought clearly explained and motives clarified, it would have been another 3000 pages. I think the series simply came to the point where you have to figure it out.

 

Wait what? You have it backwards. RJ was subtle and would make us guess at these types of things. Brandon is the one who spells out and clarifies every motivation and thought with his "tell don't show" style. There was more than enough room in these last three books after the split and a large amount of filler that tool up space. The excuses for certain faults in the writing continue to get more out there. Brandon has admitted how badly he messed up with Mat and if you think the Rand/Mat conversation was "spot on" I honestly don't know what to say. It was unbelievably childish and out if character for both of them. totally cringe worthy IMO and I almost expected one of them to break out a ruler next.

 

As for his thoughts on channelers, not being overly find of AS and being blasé about damane with Tuon are two vastly different things. We have already seen the lengths he goes go to freeing them earlier in the series.

Edited by Suttree

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Some people here seem to imagine Arthur Hawkwing would tell Tuon how wrong she was. But he didn't like Aes Sedai and he besieged Tar Valon, so he might as well have approved.

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

You're leaving out the crucial context: Hawkwing's besieging of Tar Valon, and vilification, so to speak, of the Aes Sedai was driven by the machinations of Ishamael, under the guise of Jalwin Moerad. A man who would also drive Hawkwing to send his armies overseas, to Shara & Seanchan, contributing massively to the destabilization of what might very well may have been the most unified realm since the Age of Legends.

 

Ishamael, also would see to the downfall of the High King's consolidation, following his death. A death which may have been avoided, had Ishamael also not exerted his influence in causing Hawkwing to refuse Aes Sedai healing upon his deathbed.

 

_____

 

 

Personally I think the 'Oh let's have Mat chat with Hawkwing, hey could you talk to Tuon for me yuk yuk' conversation was lame fan-service...

 

Anyway, for the factual bit concerning Hawkwing's warped motivations, there you go.

That's a good piece of information thank you.

 

But it doesn't clarify his motives for me. And I don't think it is clarified anywhere in the series. I think he didn't really like Aes Sedai influence on the world.

 

And honestly the know-best attitude of Aes Sedai and everyone else is stupid was quite irritating. :)

 

But I'm not saying he'd necessarily approve. I'm just not seeing it completely clearcut that he wouldn't.

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If this book was written at the pace all the other books were, with every character thought clearly explained and motives clarified, it would have been another 3000 pages. I think the series simply came to the point where you have to figure it out.

Wait what? You have it backwards. RJ was subtle and would make us guess at these types of things. Brandon is the one who spells out and clarifies every motivation and thought with his "tell don't show" style. There was more than enough room in these last three books after the split and a large amount of filler that tool up space. The excuses for certain faults in the writing continue to get more out there. Brandon has admitted how badly he messed up with Mat and if you think the Rand/Mat conversation was "spot on" I honestly don't know what to say. It was unbelievably childish and out if character for both of them. totally cringe worthy IMO and I almost expected one of them to break out a ruler next.

 

As for his thoughts on channelers, not being overly find of AS and being blasé about damane with Tuon are two vastly different things. We have already seen the lengths he goes go to freeing them earlier in the series.

I don't think we really understand each other on that. I personally don't really get your point.

 

My point is simply that in my view Brandon did an awesome job. And maybe I'm just overly appreciative towards him for completing the series, and thus I'd rather positively explain things rather than just criticize him unfairly. 

 

As for the Rand/Mat conversation, I liked it. It fits with my sense of humor. You have every right to not like it.

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If this book was written at the pace all the other books were, with every character thought clearly explained and motives clarified, it would have been another 3000 pages. I think the series simply came to the point where you have to figure it out.

Wait what? You have it backwards. RJ was subtle and would make us guess at these types of things. Brandon is the one who spells out and clarifies every motivation and thought with his "tell don't show" style. There was more than enough room in these last three books after the split and a large amount of filler that tool up space. The excuses for certain faults in the writing continue to get more out there. Brandon has admitted how badly he messed up with Mat and if you think the Rand/Mat conversation was "spot on" I honestly don't know what to say. It was unbelievably childish and out if character for both of them. totally cringe worthy IMO and I almost expected one of them to break out a ruler next.

 

As for his thoughts on channelers, not being overly find of AS and being blasé about damane with Tuon are two vastly different things. We have already seen the lengths he goes go to freeing them earlier in the series.

I don't think we really understand each other on that. I personally don't really get your point.

 

My point is simply that in my view Brandon did an awesome job. And maybe I'm just overly appreciative towards him for completing the series, and thus I'd rather positively explain things rather than just criticize him unfairly. 

 

As for the Rand/Mat conversation, I liked it. It fits with my sense of humor. You have every right to not like it.

Let me try to explain. One of the most frequent criticisms of Brandon is his blunt "tell don't show" style in which every character spells out exactly what is going on with his thoughts and announces his intentions. As the character spells everything out it actually takes up more room when trying to convey information. Brandon also struggles with employing literary devices like ellipsis to advance the action more quickly, something that RJ was very skilled at. RJ never had characters "clearly explain" and he never "clarified every motive". He could convey an extraordinary amount of info in a very concise manner when needed and yet still be very subtle. He showed us the way instead of spelling everything out.

 

You also mention pace without taking into account where we are in the story arc or the fact that these last three books don't have a faster pace than a number of the other books. You seem to cite lack of room as an excuse for some of the faults in the writing. That rings hollow as there was a huge amount of bloat and filler in these last three books and Brandon himself argued against the need to split the books into three.

 

As for criticizing Brandon unfairly that is not at all what is happening. Applying a careful critique to an authors work and being realistic as to the faults is not "unfair". I can literally count on one hand the number of posters who have been unfair to him here and that certainly isn't in relation to Mat. Mat being off was the single greatest complaint in reviews and from the fans. Brandon himself admitted he got Mat wrong and said it best so let's just quote him:

 

Brandon

 

I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.
Edited by Suttree

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If this book was written at the pace all the other books were, with every character thought clearly explained and motives clarified, it would have been another 3000 pages. I think the series simply came to the point where you have to figure it out.

Wait what? You have it backwards. RJ was subtle and would make us guess at these types of things. Brandon is the one who spells out and clarifies every motivation and thought with his "tell don't show" style. There was more than enough room in these last three books after the split and a large amount of filler that tool up space. The excuses for certain faults in the writing continue to get more out there. Brandon has admitted how badly he messed up with Mat and if you think the Rand/Mat conversation was "spot on" I honestly don't know what to say. It was unbelievably childish and out if character for both of them. totally cringe worthy IMO and I almost expected one of them to break out a ruler next.

 

As for his thoughts on channelers, not being overly find of AS and being blasé about damane with Tuon are two vastly different things. We have already seen the lengths he goes go to freeing them earlier in the series.

I don't think we really understand each other on that. I personally don't really get your point.

 

My point is simply that in my view Brandon did an awesome job. And maybe I'm just overly appreciative towards him for completing the series, and thus I'd rather positively explain things rather than just criticize him unfairly. 

 

As for the Rand/Mat conversation, I liked it. It fits with my sense of humor. You have every right to not like it.

Let me try to explain. One of the most frequent criticisms of Brandon is his blunt "tell don't show" style in which every character spells out exactly what is going on with his thoughts and announces his intentions. As the character spells everything out it actually takes up more room when trying to convey information. Brandon also struggles with employing literary devices like ellipsis to advance the action more quickly, something that RJ was very skilled at. RJ never had characters "clearly explain" and he never "clarified every motive". He could convey an extraordinary amount of info in a very concise manner when needed and yet still be very subtle. He showed us the way instead of spelling everything out.

 

You also mention pace without taking into account where we are in the story arc or the fact that these last three books don't have a faster pace than a number of the other books. You seem to cite lack of room as an excuse for some of the faults in the writing. That rings hollow as there was a huge amount of bloat and filler in these last three books and Brandon himself argued against the need to split the books into three.

 

As for criticizing Brandon unfairly that is not at all what is happening. Applying a careful critique to an authors work and being realistic as to the faults is not "unfair". I can literally count on one hand the number of posters who have been unfair to him here and that certainly isn't in relation to Mat. Mat being off was the single greatest complaint in reviews and from the fans. Brandon himself admitted he got Mat wrong and said it best so let's just quote him:

 

Brandon

I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

 

Oh, now I understand you! Thanks for explaining.

 

Okay, my perspective was that Brandon was writing the last 3 books, so it would have taken 3000 pages, if he wanted to go on with that style. RJ might have (would probably have) done a much better job of it, I don't think we'll ever know.

 

As for unfair criticism, that was not a finger pointed at you, but rather saying "I'll not go into it, since my experience with writing is very thin".

 

And on understanding Mat. He is perhaps one of the hardest to grasp, along with Tuon in my opinion. And even if you did understand, how would you know, you had the same concept as RJ? :)

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Total agreement there. Mat and Tuon are both very tough characters. Cheers and welcome to DM illesk!

Edited by Suttree

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...

Let me try to explain. One of the most frequent criticisms of Brandon is his blunt "tell don't show" style in which every character spells out exactly what is going on with his thoughts and announces his intentions. As the character spells everything out it actually takes up more room when trying to convey information. Brandon also struggles with employing literary devices like ellipsis to advance the action more quickly, something that RJ was very skilled at. RJ never had characters "clearly explain" and he never "clarified every motive". He could convey an extraordinary amount of info in a very concise manner when needed and yet still be very subtle. He showed us the way instead of spelling everything out.

Then he filled all that space he saved with boring pointless drawl or endless repetitive description.

 

That said AMOL is by far the worst (writing wise). I like Brandon, but this was a mess. I tend to agree with it feeling rushed and crammed. I'm not saying there wasn't filler, just not a proper balance of where the extra time should be taken. I was either snoozing or crying for more.

 

Edit: Oh and Mat was fine. I never found RJ's Mat funny, so Sanderson's Cartoonish Mat was at least entertaining. Oddly enough I loved Mat's perspective of Talmanes in TOM, but in AMOL the Talmanes POVs were so over-the-top dry. Like he was an Aiel comic or something.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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