Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[XXX]

OMG..Logain was not ordered by Egwene to break the god damn seals. Why do ppl keep repeating the nonsense again and again. An order can be given only by a superior. Logain was not ordered to do anything by Egwene nor did Egwene have the authority to do so.

 

Does Egwene love have no limits for some people?

[Kahsm]

Uhh, Rand would have been screwed if A) the white tower were split, or B) the white tower was a bunch of untrained crying Damane who couldn't do much of anything until they were broken by Sul'dam. Both of which were averted by Egwene. Not to mention "Wait for the light". But then no matter what I say she did, you'll just say "well anyone could have done that". Yeah, but you can say that for just about anything in the entire book. Except Rand you say? Well maybe even for him! We know the CotL has been converted to the shadow int he past, and yet the Light still avoided losing in those turnings. So clearly some people or organizations can be capable enough to not only do what the dragon should, at least up to the point that LTT did, but to do it while fighting AGAINST the dragon! Pretty impressive.

 

And I'm not even convinced that what Rand did was particularly unique. I think Moridin could have done it with the right tools and attitude. I know you disagree because you're randy for Rand, but he really seemed to have no particularly unique powers. Other people can be strong channelers, other people can have the voice, other people can be ta'veren. He just happened to have the right combination to be able to follow the proper path to a satisfactory ending.

 

And as Sutt decided to point out, I am probably one of the more ardent Egwene supporters here, and I don't believe I've ever claimed Egwene's role is equal to that of the dragon. And I haven't done so in this point. He's more important. But she is important. So you're just off your nut lilltempest. But you're effectively an XXX47 clone, so I expect nothing more.

 

Edit: Funny, xxx47 posted after I hit reply but before I hit send. haha. But he's right she didn't order him. Though It think he's splitting hairs. I don't believe the people who use that word mean she commanded him with her overarching authority. She ordered him as in, said to do it. He still had a choice, and he decided to agree with the wise and powerful Amyrlin Seat. Good move on his part. You guys should try it ;)

[David Selig]

 

And let's be honest, here...the only one of the three who honestly
wanted Rand around for anything other than a roll in the hay was Min,
and now she has her own thing going on and doesn't "need a man". Elayne
never had the decency to tell him she was pregnant and led the world to
believe, right up until TG, that she had been knocked up by a nasty
rapist DF. She doesn't want him around, he doesn't need the abuse she'd
dole out, so it's best he stay away until she gets horny again and
decides to go see him. Her twins (his children) will be raised in a way
he probably won't agree with (the boy has to be a mindless, spineless
lapdog slave to the girl, just like Gawyn was raised to be to Elayne)
and he would not be allowed any say in the matter at all since he would
never be treated as Elayne's equal and, instead, would have to accept
being her mindless lapdog with no say so in his children's raising.
After saving the world, I think he deserves better.

 

Besides, we've been beaten over the head with the fact that the females
run the show for the children and the men are little more than sperm
donors unless the mother doesn't survive (sad to say, it's probably a
good thing Kari wasn't around and Tam raised Rand himself). Especially
when dealing with the queen of Andor, who has no use for a man unless
he's properly beaten down and submissive. Rand has no place with Elayne
at all, and, really, no place with Aviendha either. Min was his only
shot at a "normal" relationship and family life and that went to the
sewer once Tuon recruited her as Doomsayer. I don't see how Rand can be
blamed for any of this, or faulted for wanting a bit of peace and quiet
for a change.

 This is downright hilarious. Elayne "has no use for a man unless he's properly beaten down and submissive"? Why did she choose Rand, pretty much the only man in the whole world with a political and magical power greater than hers, and never ever tried to give him orders or force him to do her bidding in any way, in fact she helped him stand up for himself by teaching him the basics of politics and governing? 

 

 The Queen/Daughter-Heir's brother is not supposed to be "mindless, spineless lapdog slave" to her - he has to be able to stand up for himself, show initiative and be able to make big decisions as long as they don't go against Queen's wishes. He has to be a commander-in-chief after all and you can't have a successful army with a "mindless slave' in charge of it. This is one of the reasons Gawyn had so much trouble accepting what Egwene demanded of him.

 

 Plus the claim that men had nothing to do with raising of the kids is clearly wrong. Even in Morgase's case, Taringail was teaching Galad a lot and was planning on doing the same with his other two kids when they became old enough for it and could've had a bigger role in their earlier life, but chose not. Even Gareth Bryne, despite not being married to Morgase, had a major influence and a big role in the raising of her kids, especially Gawyn. And if we look at the bits of childhood memories we get from some other characters who had both parents alive as kids, like Mat, clearly their fathers had a big role in their raising.

[Suttree]

Edit: Funny, xxx47 posted after I hit reply but before I hit send. haha. But he's right she didn't order him. Though It think he's splitting hairs. I don't believe the people who use that word mean she commanded him with her overarching authority. She ordered him as in, said to do it.

Indeed, no idea why anyone would feel the need to split hairs on this. How about we say Egwene's "last order" was "passed on" to Logain and he decided to follow it. The end result is the same, both the research and call of when came from Egwene. This was one of the keys to sealing the DO. It has has nothing to do with an "order" in the traditional sense of the word from a superior to a subordinate.

[jack of shadows]

@alia,

you are completely right.

aviendha,min and elayne gave rand their hearts and souls.

each of them,in her own way loved him fiercely.elayne was the vanguard,

aviendha guarded his back and min was his foreign affairs diplomat.

it was not one sided affair of course,rand loved all three of them:"light,man.

you're hopeless.hopelessly in love with all three,and there's no way out of it".

throughout the entire series,i have made many predictions and speculated

endlessly about most of the characters in randland,and not even once i doubted

the loyalty,commitment and love between rand and his three lovers.("don't grin at me like that,farmboy" hahaha)

[MasterAblar]

Yeah I'm not getting the point of this whole "Egwene gave Logain an order" thing. From what I can tell it was simply characters actually communicating for once! Essentially Egwene told Logain via Egeanin: "Dude, hope you got those seals back! You need to break them when you see a big light. Ok? Good, I'm going to blow myself up in glorious fashion now. See you in the next age." She's passing on instructions about what they need to do to win. An order isn't neccessary because they're on the same bloody side!

[Azeraph]

He couldn't kill the DO because the DO is a part of the creator, his other half dampened down. The theme is biblical so one must look at it through those eye's. In the begining there was nothing but God and blackness, Moridin wanted this blackness, oblivion. He wanted to rest but drag everyone with him.

[Darki'n]

He was happy about not being able to channel even before he did the thing with his pipe. I suppose it's supposed to be because the OP to him represents all the shit he had to go through and deal with and so it's finally, officially over. Which I'm not sure I buy given how the loss of the OP is supposed to drive most men to suicide... Even for those who were hunted by Aes Sedai for a long time and hated that they could channel, I think we're lead to believe they still were depressed at the loss... so I'm skeptical of if that was the proper reaction...

 

I also think having one pipe light for a guy then jumping to "He can manipulate the world like Neo in the matrix" might be a bit of a logical stretch...  For example, at first I wondered if it was just a "wink" from the creator (or the wheel if you want to pull "the creator does not get involved"). Like when someone holds out a light for a guy who put a cig in his mouth and is patting his pockets for a lighter.

 

I think saidin has now became a part of Rand's soul, so that he doesn't feel it anymore as he did before. He and saidin are one, and he doesn't need to weave Five Powers because he can use the pure saidin of his soul with only a thought. That's what the dragon's fang saa in his eye means. It doesn't move, and it means that saidin will always be with him. That's why he doesn't feel sorrow for that he can't channel as he did before.

 

I understood this from Aviendha's vision in Rhuidean, where it was revealed that her and Rand's children hold to the Power perpetually and can channel with only a little more than a thought. I think that means the children have a part of Rand's new power, combined with Aviendha's normal channeling. That means they are the children of Moridin-Rand, which also explains their different features. Also, this means Aviendha will follow Rand at some point to get children with the "new" Rand.

[Azeraph]

No, there is another force. The creators will, there had to be balance and brandon wrote it in at the very end.

 

Saidin, Saidar, The True Power.

 

and all three merged not in opposition against each other.

 

The power of Creation.

[XXX]

Saiden and Saidar are tools to use the source. The True power is seperate.

 

If Rand can tap into the source without the tools needed which is Saiden and Saidar then it explains the pipe scene. However the only problem I have with it, is that this make Rand even more powerful that what he was in the third age when he was born for a specific purpose. IN the 4th age he has no role so why would the Creator or Pattern give him such an awesome power when he has no use for it?

[Isark]

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but could Rand be the true Bao the Wyld? I know we know nothing about his capabilities, but it seems possible to me that his new ability is the true meaning of being able to 'weave without weaves'. Also, it would be rather hilarious if Rand got roped into another set of prophecies during his holiday. Even funnier if rumors of his coming spread to the rest of the world, and everyone assumed that Demandred was somehow alive.

[Agitel]

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but could Rand be the true Bao the Wyld? I know we know nothing about his capabilities, but it seems possible to me that his new ability is the true meaning of being able to 'weave without weaves'. Also, it would be rather hilarious if Rand got roped into another set of prophecies during his holiday. Even funnier if rumors of his coming spread to the rest of the world, and everyone assumed that Demandred was somehow alive.

 

I think what you said about Rand being the Wyld and weaving without weaves is generally accepted, though I'm not sure how much Rand will be roped up into another round of prophecies.

[Isark]

 

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but could Rand be the true Bao the Wyld? I know we know nothing about his capabilities, but it seems possible to me that his new ability is the true meaning of being able to 'weave without weaves'. Also, it would be rather hilarious if Rand got roped into another set of prophecies during his holiday. Even funnier if rumors of his coming spread to the rest of the world, and everyone assumed that Demandred was somehow alive.

 

I think what you said about Rand being the Wyld and weaving without weaves is generally accepted, though I'm not sure how much Rand will be roped up into another round of prophecies.

Oh, I don't think that he will be caught in more prophecies-just that it would be funny if he did. :P

[Guest Invisibletexan]

Ok Im new at this so bear with me. I havnt had the time to read the entire forum but would like to give my thoughts about a couple of things. I apologise if i basically repost what's already been said.

The reason I believe for Rand not killing the Dark One is simple. You cannot have good without evil. Life cannot exist without free will. If he had destroyed the DO it would have also destroyed the light or the creator. Thus unraveling the pattern which is basically held between the two. Rand's vision of a world without the DO was only a vision. An impossible vision.

The pipe lighting at the end is pretty simple as well for me. Throughout the entire story the Aile were unafraid of death saying,"All must awake from the dream." Maybe the world of the story was but a dream of the creator and rand had finally realized this. Who bloody knows?

My biggest concern with MoL was the epilogue. It didn't seem so much an epilogue as a final chapter. I want an epilogue to tell me what ultimately happened with the world and to tie up loose ends. Especially the 3 bond girls and Rand.

Like i said, I'm new at this forum thing. I've never been sucked into a story like I have with this one. Reading the last word of the last book was like someone close to me dying. I can't help but lie awake at night and speculate what our next day would bring.

This whole book makes me think on the existinse of God and how humankind's free will affects the lives of everyone. Maybe instead of cursing the Creator for the bad things that happen in the world we'll see that everyones actions contribute to the greater whole. We've all been given free will, and the right to choose between right and wrong, and those choices may have far reaching consequences the world over. "A butterfly flapping his wings on one side of the world may cause a hurricane on the other side of the world." Something like that anyway.

Just some random musings. Sorry.

[jack of shadows]

@xxx47,

there are many steps(in a ladder)between the bottom one,the rand farstrider rung,living

on a day to day basis,chopping wood here or plowing a field there,and the top one,the

dragon reborn rung.it doesn't have to be either/or.

rand can be someone inbetween.he can adopt an alias,declares himself a master grower,

and help randland,it is his land after all.

i am not overly concerned with the fact that he looks like moridin now,in reality,not many

people know moridin's face.

in a conversation with tam,rand made his feelings regarding rulers perfectly clear:"i've

been spending my time with all kinds of unsavory types lately.kings,clerks,lords and ladies".

so yes,the dragon reborn died in shayol ghul and has no role to play in the 4th age,but rand

is very much alive and he can use his awesome new powers to help in many ways anonymously.

[jack of shadows]

rand's pipe lighting power.

throughout his battle with the dark one,rand moved in and out of the pattern,

gaining knowledge and new abilities.

near the end of his battle,rand thrusted the do back to the pit using is mind:"

rand hurled the powers forward with his mind and braided them together.saidin

and saidar at once,the true power surrounding them..."

after the last battle,rand tried to light his pipe by using three different methods:

one power,true power and his mind,in my opinion,rand's powers evolved,he doesn't

have to "draw" it/them anymore like any other channeler,it's ingrained in him now.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but could Rand be the true Bao the Wyld? I know we know nothing about his capabilities, but it seems possible to me that his new ability is the true meaning of being able to 'weave without weaves'. Also, it would be rather hilarious if Rand got roped into another set of prophecies during his holiday. Even funnier if rumors of his coming spread to the rest of the world, and everyone assumed that Demandred was somehow alive.

 

I think what you said about Rand being the Wyld and weaving without weaves is generally accepted, though I'm not sure how much Rand will be roped up into another round of prophecies.

Oh, I don't think that he will be caught in more prophecies-just that it would be funny if he did. :P

 

No, the Sharan prophecies were not about Rand. They were actually about Demandred, even though Demandred himself thought it was about Rand. 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 12th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Wetlander (Paraphrased)

 

WETLANDER

Was Bao the Wyld part of Sharan prophecy? If so, was Demandred co-opting their Dragon prophecies?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

"The Wyld" was part of Sharan prophecy; Demandred thinks he co-opted the Sharan version of the "dragon prophecies" but it was actually about him all along.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

 

 

 

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but could Rand be the true Bao the Wyld? I know we know nothing about his capabilities, but it seems possible to me that his new ability is the true meaning of being able to 'weave without weaves'. Also, it would be rather hilarious if Rand got roped into another set of prophecies during his holiday. Even funnier if rumors of his coming spread to the rest of the world, and everyone assumed that Demandred was somehow alive.

 

I think what you said about Rand being the Wyld and weaving without weaves is generally accepted, though I'm not sure how much Rand will be roped up into another round of prophecies.

Oh, I don't think that he will be caught in more prophecies-just that it would be funny if he did. :P

 

No, the Sharan prophecies were not about Rand. They were actually about Demandred, even though Demandred himself thought it was about Rand. 

 

 

> 

INTERVIEW: Feb 12th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Wetlander (Paraphrased)

 

WETLANDER

Was Bao the Wyld part of Sharan prophecy? If so, was Demandred co-opting their Dragon prophecies?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

"The Wyld" was part of Sharan prophecy; Demandred thinks he co-opted the Sharan version of the "dragon prophecies" but it was actually about him all along.

So then do we know if the sharan prophecies were in any way fulfilled?

[jack of shadows]

were the sharans prophecies tailored by ishamael to fit demandred?

(the same way he corrupted the seanchan prophecies).

afer all,the sharans were calling demandred dragonslayer,so it seems likely

that they had their own prophecies that used both this epithet and perhaps even

the name bao the wyld.

in my opinion,the prophecies fits too perfectly.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

were the sharans prophecies tailored by ishamael to fit demandred?

(the same way he corrupted the seanchan prophecies).

afer all,the sharans were calling demandred dragonslayer,so it seems likely

that they had their own prophecies that used both this epithet and perhaps even

the name bao the wyld.

in my opinion,the prophecies fits too perfectly.

I took a look around the forums, and apparently all of the Sharan prophecies were indeed fulfilled

[Entreri]

Frankly, I don't believe in this Hollow nonsense, Rand should have destroyed Shai'tan. Either Shai'tan pulled a fast one or it does not make sense. 

 

Evil existed when Shai'tan was locked up.  Semirhage was corrupt to the bone according to all the Forsaken, prior to the Bore opening. So they must have had serial killers, murderers, rapists etc back in AoL before the Bore.

 

Creator takes "no part", wouldn't that make the humans "Hollow" as well, since the Light side of the Force is absent???

[jack of shadows]

i want to write a few words about alanna because her behavior towards rand

in shayol ghul still puzzles me.

the last we saw alanna,she was gone from her room,and completely vanished

from the stone of tear.

later,rand indicates that she is somewhere in the north(arafel?).

from there it's jump right into the shayol ghul cave,when nynaeve finds alanna

seriously wounded . in her last lucid moment,just before her death, she set

rand free.

i have taken the trouble to reread alanna's scenes again(all of them),and still

cannot decide if she was a black ajah or not.there are evidences to support

either claims.

i am not going to list the pros and cons,it has nothing to do with rand's thread,

just wanted to emphasize that i am not sure what prompted alanna to release

rand from the bond and protect him in her final moments.hope of redemption?maybe.

in the end,she did help,and that's what counts.(too many loose ends were left hanging

in alanna's story arc)

 

"they will keep their words" "i just saw these five in your hand"

the five were merana,alanna,bera,rafela and faeldrin.(min to rand in a crown of swords).

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

Frankly, I don't believe in this Hollow nonsense, Rand should have destroyed Shai'tan. Either Shai'tan pulled a fast one or it does not make sense. 

 

Evil existed when Shai'tan was locked up.  Semirhage was corrupt to the bone according to all the Forsaken, prior to the Bore opening. So they must have had serial killers, murderers, rapists etc back in AoL before the Bore.

 

Creator takes "no part", wouldn't that make the humans "Hollow" as well, since the Light side of the Force is absent???

However, the two antitheses are made up of of pure chaos and evil, and pure order and goodness. Their entities are completely made up of these things. Although the Creator may take no part in human action, he can still be present in the pattern for influence upon human attitude. He did create the Dragon as the pattern's check, remember. Shai'tan's being locked up is different than being destroyed. He can still be comprised of pure evil, but if that is eliminated, then it changes people's personality's, similar to Turning.

[Auto]

Full disclosure, I have listened to all of the books on audio, and only once, so my spelling will be aweful and quotes wont be exact...So my thought on the ending, and the mysterious "pipe lighting" is that Rand has come to realize that the world that they live in is just another version of the World of Dreams/Wolf Dream and therefore can manipulate the world in the same way that one can in the world of dreams. As the Aiel say Life is a dream that we all must wake from. The way he lights the pipe is the same way that things are done in the world of dreams. So I see 2 possibilities, either Rand is in the world of dreams in the final seen and will now await being reborn, or as I said before, The knowledge that he gained allowed him to see the truth that what we view as the real world is really just another version of the the world of dreams. I know there are flaws here, and my theory hasnt fully crystalized, but I believe that I am on to something.

[jjp]

 

 

Frankly, I don't believe in this Hollow nonsense, Rand should have destroyed Shai'tan. Either Shai'tan pulled a fast one or it does not make sense.

 

Evil existed when Shai'tan was locked up. Semirhage was corrupt to the bone according to all the Forsaken, prior to the Bore opening. So they must have had serial killers, murderers, rapists etc back in AoL before the Bore.

 

Creator takes "no part", wouldn't that make the humans "Hollow" as well, since the Light side of the Force is absent???

However, the two antitheses are made up of of pure chaos and evil, and pure order and goodness. Their entities are completely made up of these things. Although the Creator may take no part in human action, he can still be present in the pattern for influence upon human attitude. He did create the Dragon as the pattern's check, remember. Shai'tan's being locked up is different than being destroyed. He can still be comprised of pure evil, but if that is eliminated, then it changes people's personality's, similar to Turning.

That's where I call BS.

 

This ambiguous and ill-defined "inflence" that the Creator seems to always have had, and that the DO seems to have even beyond being "sealed" has never been mentioned before until the end of AMoL. It has no place organically in the rest of the series.

 

Further, what kind of free will is it really when it actually depends on the "influence" of the DO and, presumably but it never was stated, the Creator as well??? That's not free will at all, it's effects of the Creator and DO manifested through people. Silly.

 

Terribly conceived final showdown, and if RJ wrote every letter of it I'd say so again.