Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Entreri]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.

You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

 

 

If rand could break a circle of thirteen why did he run away from taim's 13?

 

he barely pushed it back

Because Taim's 13 weren't trying to shield him?

 

 

err they were

 

read it again pal

 

They were trying to shield him.  Of course they were also trying to kill him as well: "The other channelers wove to enchance the strom...it could strike Rand".

 

Now according to Rand's PoV, the "full circle" was led by a man.  We know there is no need for a man to be in charge, unless it is to extend a size of a circle. This circle may have been larger than 13.

 

If it was led by Taim, who is much stronger than any Aes Sedai, the Power of this full circle > one's faced at the WT.

 

Rand's PoV, "at least three dozen" Dreadlords attacking him, and very likely similar number of females.  With those kind of numbers, it would have been foolish of Taim to just have a circle of 13, given what Rand did at Maradon.

 

 

 

Dude you just playing semantics at the moment.

 

it doesnt matter if it was thirteen or 72. the point is rand's alter ego lews therin telamon the dragon thought you cannot withstand a shield of 13. Whether it's led by taim or sorilea is besides the point.

 

The onus is on you to proof that rand could break through a circle of thirteen.

He stopped from being shielded by at least 13 channelers.

 

Of course it matters.  A full circle of 72 would be many times more powerful than a circle of 13.  If he stopped a shield by 72, without any doubt he could have broken through 13. 

 

Of course it matters who is in the circle. LOL.  Do you think the Power of 13 Forsaken linked is greater, equal  or less than 13 AS from the WT?

[Entreri]

@Entreri

 

Sorry to clarify by most I meant the posters that spend considerable time writing in depth theories. Dom, Davian 93, Terez etc. Now that doesn't make them correct, but it certainly shows you havent been proven right about anything(in fact I should we talk about who was right about the nature of the wheel and "last battle", or how about Rand needing Egwene despite your claims to the contrary ;). Especially when your point is contradicted by facts in AMol. Should be interesting to ask Brandon about.

 

 

Rand needed Egwene as much as Mat, Perrin, Lan, Oliver...Nature of the Wheel?

 

Trying to pivot?

 

Let's wait for more answers from Brandon and other stuff that is released.

[Entreri]

 

 

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.

Proven right once again? In relation to what?

 

Most posters here and at TL agree about Brandon's band aid with the item of power at Maradon and about the "listening for the heart" trick.

 

Edit: Also I find it humorous how many times you have harped on Egwene not knowing what she is talking about, Rand not needing here for anything at TG etc. Yet now in this instance with the shield, in which there really is no way for her to know what she was talking about you act as if it's word of god.

 

@Finnnssss

 

I'm talking about his powers after understanding the pattern during his confrontation with the DO at SG(pipe lighting). We have always been given a clear definition of how being ta'veren works and it certainly doesn't fall into that category. Ta'veren are a tool of the pattern, not the other way around. As for what was going on during his Dark Rand period the authors stated flat out he was responsible for food rotting etc.

LOL@most posters

 

Care to explain why DF's shied away from Rand, ones who were not in line of sight went mad and at least one committed suicide? The Light in his mind? Come now.

 

You have a hard time admitting you are wrong and continue on, endlessly, as if that would make any difference.  

 

Yeah, I def agree that there's more going on with Rand's "powers" than just holding saidin and listening for heartbeats.

I don't agree that Rand having the little fat man was a "band aid" for his display at Maradon. It was widely and immediately suspected he had an angreal we didn't know about right off the bat on that one.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that BS is RJ or finished the series as well as RJ would have himself but when does "The Witch hunt" end?

Not everything is a mistake, fan service or a band aid/cover up despite what some, who like to consider themselves far too often as "Hardcore fans",  like to call, what seems like everything, right out of the gate.

Exactly.

 

There are other hints before AMOL that Rand had ascended to new heights...Avienhda's children.  Rand Sedai is not a just repetition of LTT with better upbringing. 

[nitavonne]

Totally agree with previous post!

[wRAR]

Why Rand was thinking that he doesn't intend to stay alive after SG yet he had made preparations for his false death?

[XXX]

There seems to be confusion whether a circle made up of 13 of the weakest women(Morgase,Sorilea etc) who can channel can shield a man or if the women making up the circle need to have a minimum strength.Asmo said the 13 weakest women from the WT could shield any man but we know that the WT has a minimum strength requirement.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.

Proven right once again? In relation to what?

 

Most posters here and at TL agree about Brandon's band aid with the item of power at Maradon and about the "listening for the heart" trick.

 

Edit: Also I find it humorous how many times you have harped on Egwene not knowing what she is talking about, Rand not needing here for anything at TG etc. Yet now in this instance with the shield, in which there really is no way for her to know what she was talking about you act as if it's word of god.

 

@Finnnssss

 

I'm talking about his powers after understanding the pattern during his confrontation with the DO at SG(pipe lighting). We have always been given a clear definition of how being ta'veren works and it certainly doesn't fall into that category. Ta'veren are a tool of the pattern, not the other way around. As for what was going on during his Dark Rand period the authors stated flat out he was responsible for food rotting etc.

LOL@most posters

 

Care to explain why DF's shied away from Rand, ones who were not in line of sight went mad and at least one committed suicide? The Light in his mind? Come now.

 

You have a hard time admitting you are wrong and continue on, endlessly, as if that would make any difference.  

 

Yeah, I def agree that there's more going on with Rand's "powers" than just holding saidin and listening for heartbeats.

I don't agree that Rand having the little fat man was a "band aid" for his display at Maradon. It was widely and immediately suspected he had an angreal we didn't know about right off the bat on that one.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that BS is RJ or finished the series as well as RJ would have himself but when does "The Witch hunt" end?

Not everything is a mistake, fan service or a band aid/cover up despite what some, who like to consider themselves far too often as "Hardcore fans",  like to call, what seems like everything, right out of the gate.

Exactly.

 

There are other hints before AMOL that Rand had ascended to new heights...Avienhda's children.  Rand Sedai is not a just repetition of LTT with better upbringing. 

 

Yes and no I think.

If we're talking about the One Power, then in a way he reached another level. Another level of what Rand had previously been able to get to but not above that of what LTT did. He simply reclaimed that level of adeptness with the One Power that LTT had.

If we're talking about his "Dragon" powers, then, as I mentioned previously, it would depend on how much the DO managed to "touch" the land in LTT's time. I believe Rand's "powers" increase as the DO's hand on the world increases. The Pattern affords The Dragon this to create balance.

Rand's "sensing" abilities are not unique to Rand. That is demonstrated quite clearly in the EotW prologue.

 

Rand's demonstration at Maradon was two-fold...

1) He had the fat man angreal.

and

2) He now had LTT's advanced level of command and control with the One Power.

 

 

One thing I think you got hooked on though that Sut was rightfully,trying to argue against, was Egwene's thoughts that Rand could break free of a full circle.

It wasn't that he actually could have done it(there really is no proof that he could), it was just that Egwene THOUGHT he could because of how calm and nonchalant he was while shielded.

That and, I think anyway, Rand's "will" acting upon her that she would not be allowed to keep him.

[jack of shadows]

@wrar

rand planned to get rid of the dragon mantle either way all along.

when he went to shayol ghul to fight the do he had three options open to him:

to fail and die,to win and still die or to win and  return back alive.

rand was tired of being a symbol,tired of being a leader,and to be fair to him

he never asked for it.

shayol ghul was supposed to be the end of the dragon reborn,and in a way it was

but it was also a new beginning for rand al thor,just rand al thor.

his three lovers understood this,after all they gave their hearts and souls(and bodies lol)

to him.

i was,and still am bitter that he never said a word to his father or to nynaeve,but i can

understand his willingness to achieve a new life by faking his own death.

after all the terrible time he had to endure,rand was finally.....free.

[Hagazussa]

 

i was,and still am bitter that he never said a word to his father or to nynaeve,but i can

understand his willingness to achieve a new life by faking his own death.

after all the terrible time he had to endure,rand was finally.....free

 

I know this is just guesswork but I do have a feeling Rand's women would have told them afterwards, but right at Rand's funeral they sort of needed Tam to act natural, the right thing to do would be to pull him and some of Rand's closest friends aside and tell them when everything have calmed down that he was still alive, and since I like the three girls I do hope and believe they have the decency to do just that.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I'm not so sure ... I'm inclined to think that there's more to Rand's powers than just LTT level skill and angreal combined because ... apparently, according to Rand's thoughts, he was holding off a full circle led by Taim/M'Hael that eventually forced him to retreat.  I doubt that even with an angreal LTT could do that...

[Elan Tedronai]

I'm not so sure ... I'm inclined to think that there's more to Rand's powers than just LTT level skill and angreal combined because ... apparently, according to Rand's thoughts, he was holding off a full circle led by Taim/M'Hael that eventually forced him to retreat.  I doubt that even with an angreal LTT could do that...

 

he held it off for a short time because he was expecting it. And he was channelling through an angreal. I used to remember enteri saying maradon was proof of rand being greater than LTT. Turns out he was using an angreal. Lolz

 

In the end he had to retreat because sooner or later that shield would have enveloped him.

 

Rand is LTT is rand. The dragon soul does not mysteriously get new powers with each turning of the wheel.

 

BBM explained everything in that post of his

[XXX]

Same Angreal same full circle by Elaida AS and Rand could not prevent the shield in Carhien while he could hold off an arguably stronger shield in AMOL as it was led by Taim.

[Entreri]

LoC:

 

"Thirteen to link and WEAVE a shield no man could break...Thirteen to...Lews Therin FLED SCREAMING".

 

And was it only 13 in AMOL? And why would Taim only use 13 when he had so many men and women channelers to spare? I always assumed it was only 13, but are rereading the scene, makes me doubt it. Would be a good question to ask Brandon. 

 

If Taim had "AT LEAST" 36 Dreadlords according to Rand (one would think numerous Black Ajah) to just DISTRACT the DR (as stated in Rand's PoV), why would Taim use only 13 channelers to try to shield the DR when he had SO MANY at his disposal?  Plus Taim knew what Rand did in Maradon, which would normally require a sa'angreal. 

 

Rand: "Light! That had to be a full circle". 

 

Last battle comments:

 

Einar: "Light help us...he's in a circle. A full circle".

 

Egwene: Demandred is in a circle...Eyewitnesses say a full circle".

 

Lastly of course, Rand lighting his pipe, the scene written by RJ.  Rand Sedai has moved beyond LTT. 

[Suttree]

Lastly of course, Rand lighting his pipe, the scene written by RJ. Rand Sedai has moved beyond LTT.

No one has disputed that(ok maybe Élan has ;). In fact that is what I was saying, he came out of the confrontation at SG with new powers. He did not have those powers post VoG.

 

Also saying what he did at Maradon would normally require a sa'ngreal is not only unsupported guess work, it goes against the Brandon quote which quite clearly discusses Rands power level and says he had been that strong since KoD.

 

As for numbers, are you really trying to base any serious discussion off numbers for channelers in AMoL? We now groups flat out disappeared so there is no point in asking why Taim only used 13? Might as well ask why Avi has that pathetic skeleton crew and needs AS &WFs to form a small circle when there are thousands of WOs missing.

[Elan Tedronai]

Same Angreal same full circle by Elaida AS and Rand could not prevent the shield in Carhien while he could hold off an arguably stronger shield in AMOL as it was led by Taim.

 

 

That's because rand grew more powerful since book 6.

 

Rand is fully knowldgeable about the power like his alter ego

 

He was expecting it

 

And he still barely fended it off.

 

A few moments later had he not travelled he would have been shielded

 

enteri,

 

look we can sit here all day and say the circle taim was leading could have been 13 or a 72 circle. no one knows for a fact.

 

What we do know is Lews therin telamon said you cant break a shield of 13.

 

We have the word of asmodean

 

You need to show me one instance in the book where rand broke through a circle of 13. You need to show me an instance where rand could not have been sheilded by a circle of 13

 

I am waiting.

[Entreri]

 

Same Angreal same full circle by Elaida AS and Rand could not prevent the shield in Carhien while he could hold off an arguably stronger shield in AMOL as it was led by Taim.

 

 

That's because rand grew more powerful since book 6.

 

Rand is fully knowldgeable about the power like his alter ego

 

He was expecting it

 

And he still barely fended it off.

 

A few moments later had he not travelled he would have been shielded

 

enteri,

 

look we can sit here all day and say the circle taim was leading could have been 13 or a 72 circle. no one knows for a fact.

 

What we do know is Lews therin telamon said you cant break a shield of 13.

 

We have the word of asmodean

 

You need to show me one instance in the book where rand broke through a circle of 13. You need to show me an instance where rand could not have been sheilded by a circle of 13

 

I am waiting.

 

 

You wait is over if you read AMOL: Rand fought off a circle of at least 13. 

[Entreri]

 

Lastly of course, Rand lighting his pipe, the scene written by RJ. Rand Sedai has moved beyond LTT.

No one has disputed that(ok maybe Élan has ;). In fact that is what I was saying, he came out of the confrontation at SG with new powers. He did not have those powers post VoG.

 

Also saying what he did at Maradon would normally require a sa'ngreal is not only unsupported guess work, it goes against the Brandon quote which quite clearly discusses Rands power level and says he had been that strong since KoD.

 

As for numbers, are you really trying to base any serious discussion off numbers for channelers in AMoL? We now groups flat out disappeared so there is no point in asking why Taim only used 13? Might as well ask why Avi has that pathetic skeleton crew and needs AS &WFs to form a small circle when there are thousands of WOs missing.

 

Rand gained abilities after his awakening at Dragonmount, which are plainly evident. 

 

Compare what Rand+25 other channelers did in KoD vs. what Rand by himself did at Maradon.  Did Brandon state that Rand is no more powerful than he was at KoD?

[XXX]

 

Same Angreal same full circle by Elaida AS and Rand could not prevent the shield in Carhien while he could hold off an arguably stronger shield in AMOL as it was led by Taim.

 

 

That's because rand grew more powerful since book 6.

 

Rand is fully knowldgeable about the power like his alter ego

 

He was expecting it

 

And he still barely fended it off.

 

A few moments later had he not travelled he would have been shielded

 

enteri,

 

look we can sit here all day and say the circle taim was leading could have been 13 or a 72 circle. no one knows for a fact.

 

What we do know is Lews therin telamon said you cant break a shield of 13.

 

We have the word of asmodean

 

You need to show me one instance in the book where rand broke through a circle of 13. You need to show me an instance where rand could not have been sheilded by a circle of 13

 

I am waiting.

 

Well Asmo said you cannot stop a shield of 13. Which is what happened to Rand in book 6.Whatever he did,the shield cut him off. 

 

In AMOL he did hold the shield back enough for him to escape.So either he is more knowledgable than Asmo(possible as Rand now had the complete LTT skill base) or he is stronger than what he was as LTT because even LTT was totally panicked about a 13 woman sheild.if u can hold it off to escape then there is no need to panic is there?

[Finnssss22]

Preventing a shield from landing is not the same as breaking through a shield already in place.

What Rand gained on Dragonmount was the full knowledge and experience of LTT. You can't compare him to the average channeler. You can only compare him to the Forsaken. Lanfear/Cyndane for example, she took on Alivia, who was using Nyneave's angreal and ter'angreal ring set and Alivia was just able to fend her off.

Verin, in a circle (while most likely using her own angreal flower brooch), barely held off Graendal (albeit we know she also had a plain ring angreal) and lost one of her circle doing it.

 

I have always leaned towards the belief that no one can break a shield by a full circle once in place. Actually landing that shield however is another story. What Egwene believes or thinks is not law. The Pattern was not going to let them keep Rand at the Tower, that, IMO, is what she was feeling there.

We have had hints that an active shield could possibly be broken or gotten around somehow (Nynaeve vs Talaan in WH-11 hints at something like this) but we just don't know.

[Elan Tedronai]

i give up.

 

i have nothing further to add your honour except to say that when a man who is drawing so much of the power barely fends of a shield and runs away from the scene of the battlefield equals breaking the law of the thirteen then we need to call it quits

[Finnssss22]

i give up.

 

i have nothing further to add your honour except to say that when a man who is drawing so much of the power barely fends of a shield and runs away from the scene of the battlefield equals breaking the law of the thirteen then we need to call it quits

Elan, we have seen numerous examples of channelers shielding other channelers, even channelers more powerful than themselves, before they access the Power. Falion and Ispan shielding Nynaeve in aCoS-38 for example. They did so before Nynaeve embraced the source. I highly doubt they would have been capable of doing so if she was actually holding the Power already.

There are just far too many examples of this fact throughout the books.

 

I don't think the 13 rule comes into play until the shield is actually put in place. It explains both arguments no?

[XXX]

 

i give up.

 

i have nothing further to add your honour except to say that when a man who is drawing so much of the power barely fends of a shield and runs away from the scene of the battlefield equals breaking the law of the thirteen then we need to call it quits

Elan, we have seen numerous examples of channelers shielding other channelers, even channelers more powerful than themselves, before they access the Power. Falion and Ispan shielding Nynaeve in aCoS-38 for example. They did so before Nynaeve embraced the source. I highly doubt they would have been capable of doing so if she was actually holding the Power already.

There are just far too many examples of this fact throughout the books.

 

I don't think the 13 rule comes into play until the shield is actually put in place. It explains both arguments no?

 

That does explain it but that is not the way Asmo and LTT explained it in the books. And it was proven when Rand was captured,he drawing in as much as he could but the shield just came in place.

 

Of course Rand pushing the shield back in AMOL could be a Sanderson invention,not the first one he has thought off that would contradict what we read for 11 books.

[Entreri]

No man can stand against 13.

 

13 of the weakest AS in the Tower would wreck any man, according to Asmodean. "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you OR ANY MAN, and barely breath hard". 

 

Lanfear implied the same thing...since she threatend Rahvin with it.  And etc.

 

13 AS shielded Rand in LoC, incredibly easily without any resistance, made LTT flee in terror.  Come AMOL, completely different story and Rand said he could go back and defeat Taim et al...however it would leave him too weak to face Shai'tan.  And of course Taim would have gotten his most powerful channelers to shield Rand. 

 

Rand completely integrated with the Light side unlike LTT, this allows him special powers and abilities that LTT did not have.  And in the end, Rand does not even need the Power but bends reality with his will. 

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

 

 

i give up.

 

i have nothing further to add your honour except to say that when a man who is drawing so much of the power barely fends of a shield and runs away from the scene of the battlefield equals breaking the law of the thirteen then we need to call it quits

Elan, we have seen numerous examples of channelers shielding other channelers, even channelers more powerful than themselves, before they access the Power. Falion and Ispan shielding Nynaeve in aCoS-38 for example. They did so before Nynaeve embraced the source. I highly doubt they would have been capable of doing so if she was actually holding the Power already.

There are just far too many examples of this fact throughout the books.

 

I don't think the 13 rule comes into play until the shield is actually put in place. It explains both arguments no?

 

That does explain it but that is not the way Asmo and LTT explained it in the books. And it was proven when Rand was captured,he drawing in as much as he could but the shield just came in place.

 

Of course Rand pushing the shield back in AMOL could be a Sanderson invention,not the first one he has thought off that would contradict what we read for 11 books.

There have been many instances in previous books where it has been said that it is impossible to break through a shield, or even hold one off, if it is supported by thirteen channelers. I think it is safe to think that it could be a possiblity that Sanderson created from himself Rand's "fending off" of the shield.

[fosterrl]

In the scene with Rand, Tuon and Mat in the garden in Ebou Dar.  Mat asks Rand if he is singing.  Do you think this is the song that the Tinkers are looking for?