Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[MrBlack]

 

 

 

 

I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me. The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately? Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

Of all of the things that need closure, I don't think those matter. That is a nature of an ending. RJ wrote those scenes. He gave you all he was going to give you.

 

Secondly, Rand couldn't do anything until the seals were broken.

 

Don't read the Dark Tower, you would kill yourself.

 

The trouble is, though, this was not planned to be the ultimate, final, last book of The Wheel of Time, and outriggers almost certainly would have answered most of the questions about the lack of epilogue material, and RJ never changed from when he planned to write them (hence an ending that is, in some sense, still a sequel hook).

 

I agree with you that the main plot was closed, and most books leave subplots open.  Most books do not have about 30 different rather major subplots that are never concluded (or that many subplots to begin with!) and only give vague hints about.

 

An example of a series that concluded the main plot without wrapping a similar number of Subplots was Malazan.  The trouble is that a second series detailing those exact subplots, and giving everything at least partial conclusion, is being written.  I do not expect something like that, but a couple dozen pages of "...and in the wake of the battle..." showing who is alive, etc, would have been nice.  WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO LIVED!

The thing is, this was planned to be the ultimate ending to the Wheel of Time, as a series.  The outriggers only came later, and were apparently planned to deal with very explicit elements of the Fourth Age, i.e., Mat and Tuon's adventures in Seanchan.  They weren't designed to answer questions which, from all appearances, Jordan intended to leave open.

 

The whole point of the ending was that this isn't THE ending.  Not everything is going to be wrapped up with a nice little bow after the Last Battle.  Heck, that's been the philosophical underpinning of the whole series!  We get an ending to the conflict which has driven the story since The Eye of the World: Rand faces the Dark One and reimprisons him.  That doesn't mean that everything is over for these characters.  The Last Battle is over, but life goes on; the Wheel of Time keeps on turning.

[Stevros]

I'm curious as to what will in Unfettered as it is likely the story arc of someone more minor to the story, it could lay some of the questions to rest.

[Viperswhip]

Yes, but Jordan seems to misunderstand the fans attachment to minor characters. I don't know if there are any Boba Fetts in the WoT, but lots of people want to know who lived and died at least. We can certainly make inferences based on the fact they were alive last time anyone mentioned them, but that doesn't mean much with oodles of Balefire being thrown around.

[sean_powell08]

 

 

 

 

 

And, what the hell is Nakomi?

 

She was designed and enacted to be theory fodder. Nothing more.

 

Brandon was actually asked very specifically about Nakomi last night at the signing in Chicago. His response was basically, "She came from very deep in RJ's notes, was a character that had to be there, but not someone that I think RJ would want me to go into a lot of detail about." He did say there's a chance that she'll be fleshed out/explained more in the upcoming encyclopedia, but made no promises on that matter.

You have a quote for that Jhirr? Would love to read what was actually said.

 

I don't have a quote other than what I posted. I was one of the Memory Keepers for the event last night. The question first came up in the Q&A, poorly worded, which Brandon was then able to duck. The question was: Who was the Aiel woman that Aviendha met on the way to Rhuidean? Brandon simply said, Nakomi, next question. The same person stayed pretty late, and was in the final group getting personalizations done for the books. He asked again, what's the deal with Nakomi. Brandon said there's a hint about her in AMOL. Also, he said that hint exists somewhere between the beginning of chapter 37 (The Last Battle) and the end of the book. However, the character came from deep in Jordan's notes, and it wasn't something that he felt like he could just reveal. The guy then asked if Nakomi would be explained in the upcoming encyclopedia, and Brandon answered with an "I don't know, but it's possible, I can't make any promises." Unfortunately we weren't allowed to do any sort of recording, so that's the best I can give you. But that's what he said, sometime around 11 PM CST last night. 

 I'm not as deeply versed on the books as most on these forums, but the first thing I thought when MoriRand lights the pipe without One Power/True Power was Nakomi.  She creates things that Avi cannot sense with Saidar.  She is also noted as being ancient.  The biggest question is, how long will MoriRand live without being able to channel.  If he has become something new/different, perhaps forever?  It makes me believe Nakomi may be the last Dragon that needed to seal a bore and ended up having the same skills as MoriRand.

[MrJade]

 I'm not as deeply versed on the books as most on these forums, but the first thing I thought when MoriRand lights the pipe without One Power/True Power was Nakomi.  She creates things that Avi cannot sense with Saidar.  She is also noted as being ancient.  The biggest question is, how long will MoriRand live without being able to channel.  If he has become something new/different, perhaps forever?  It makes me believe Nakomi may be the last Dragon that needed to seal a bore and ended up having the same skills as MoriRand.

 

Mr. Jordan said that Dragons are not female. They are always male, and souls have a definite gender. See Aran'gar.

[sean_powell08]

Thanks Mr Jade.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened.

It was more of a metaphorical resolution that happened during the last scene. Not well executed but that was a tough one. Who knos if RJ would have made it more literal.

Since RJ wrote the scene as a final product, I would say that it was fulfilled as intended.

We know for fact Brandon added elements to it. It wasn't all RJ skalors.

[Guest pjex]

In the grand scheme of things this is quite petty, but for some reason I kept waiting the whole book to see what would happen with Dobraine.  Did I miss something, or did he get left out? I also was expecting something bigger for Setalle Anan.  Overall I'm very happy.  Considering the author of such an intricate series wasn't able to finish it, and goodness only knows how much he really was able to flesh out his notes on the minor characters and plot points, I am thrilled to have any ending at all.

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened.

It was more of a metaphorical resolution that happened during the last scene. Not well executed but that was a tough one. Who knos if RJ would have made it more literal.

Since RJ wrote the scene as a final product, I would say that it was fulfilled as intended.

We know for fact Brandon added elements to it. It wasn't all RJ skalors.

I agree with what you're saying, but in context with Skalors original point relating to the final scene giving all the information that RJ wanted the reader to have, surely BS just added to the information? I don't remember reading anything to say that he took stuff out?

[skalors3]

Yes, but Jordan seems to misunderstand the fans attachment to minor characters. I don't know if there are any Boba Fetts in the WoT, but lots of people want to know who lived and died at least. We can certainly make inferences based on the fact they were alive last time anyone mentioned them, but that doesn't mean much with oodles of Balefire being thrown around.

I simply dont think it mattered to Jordan. They were his books, not yours. People forget that.

 

@Mark

 

BS may have written the DO confrontation, but the closure, or lack thereof, belongs to RJ.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Yes, but Jordan seems to misunderstand the fans attachment to minor characters. I don't know if there are any Boba Fetts in the WoT, but lots of people want to know who lived and died at least. We can certainly make inferences based on the fact they were alive last time anyone mentioned them, but that doesn't mean much with oodles of Balefire being thrown around.

I simply dont think it mattered to Jordan. They were his books, not yours. People forget that.

 

@Mark

 

BS may have written the DO confrontation, but the closure, or lack thereof, belongs to RJ.

 

Depends what closure you're talking about.  If the impossible pipe thing and what Rand will do afterwards bothers you then yes you're right.  But the rest is not RJ unless we have something in the notes saying "dont reveal the contents of Verins letters or Moiraine's wishes".

[skalors3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened.

It was more of a metaphorical resolution that happened during the last scene. Not well executed but that was a tough one. Who knos if RJ would have made it more literal.

Since RJ wrote the scene as a final product, I would say that it was fulfilled as intended.

We know for fact Brandon added elements to it. It wasn't all RJ skalors.

While that may be true, I think BS's role is being overplayed as a convenient way to hate the end. I am sure that this ending was well documented by RJ. In fact, even Brandon said that all he had to do was get us to the LB.

 

If RJ wanted it revealed, I think he would have had it in his notes.

[Viperswhip]

I'd rather side on the, if it doesn't say not to reveal it, then go ahead side of the equation.

[MrBlack]

I'm curious as to what will in Unfettered as it is likely the story arc of someone more minor to the story, it could lay some of the questions to rest.

Given the name, I'm guessing a Bela POV. ;)

[Kivam]

 

Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

he was an empty husk in the bore when Rand walked in he noticed the body 

 

Which was completely ludicrous.  Honestly, much as I liked the book as a whole, the ending felt off and there were such obvious things that nobody was doing (like Androl just opening a gateway in Taim's chest or, once Androl had demonstrated the use of gateways to move lava, further use of that on the battlefield).  Characters seemed off, and it just left me cold.

 

Truthfully, the best thing this book could have done is let Talmanes die right at the beginning.  Would have set a nice heroism/sacrifice/real danger tone for the whole book.  Instead, we got a last second, just in the nick of time rescue that became the pattern for the rest of the story.

[Viperswhip]

It did allow for Nynaeve to overcome one deficit she'd never had a shot at, maybe it could have been someone else, but she was not able to heal Tam. Granted, she didn't know anything at the time, but whatever, it was more her character moment than Talmanes.

[MrBlack]

 

 

Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

he was an empty husk in the bore when Rand walked in he noticed the body 

 

Which was completely ludicrous.  Honestly, much as I liked the book as a whole, the ending felt off and there were such obvious things that nobody was doing (like Androl just opening a gateway in Taim's chest or, once Androl had demonstrated the use of gateways to move lava, further use of that on the battlefield).  Characters seemed off, and it just left me cold.

 

Truthfully, the best thing this book could have done is let Talmanes die right at the beginning.  Would have set a nice heroism/sacrifice/real danger tone for the whole book.  Instead, we got a last second, just in the nick of time rescue that became the pattern for the rest of the story.

It was relatively clear that Shaidar Haran was some sort of avatar for the Dark One for quite some time.  I'm satisfied with his "appearance" in this book given that fact.

 

Androl's use of gateways seems to be unique to him, and we did see him, at least, using them offensively on the battlefield.

 

I'm okay with Talmanes living if only because he established himself as such a badass in the Prologue that I didn't want him to die!  I like to think that he is one of the "bodyguards" for Olver as he wanders off to dispose of the Horn of Valere, and that the two of them will get into plenty of adventures together. :)

[Kelandon]

I was pretty much okay with most of the unanswered questions, except Nakomi. I guess it was RJ's judgment not to reveal anything about her, but that doesn't make it a good decision. There just doesn't seem to be enough information to eliminate enough possibilities.

 

I'm okay with a lot of the ambiguity in the prophecies, but the lack of a boat when Rand dies/body switches? Is there something like a boat in that scene? I missed it altogether, if so. Maybe it's a metaphorical boat?

 

It's sort of unfortunate that we won't get the outriggers, as I've mentioned in another topic, because it's pretty clear that RJ was setting up for them, and they'd provide a little bit of resolution on the future, which wasn't really necessary but would've been nice.

[Wippuh]

I really agree with Mark D's post early on about how everything at the end was so tidy and quick.  Very disappointing.  Hundreds of pages of build up for each situation, a paragraph or two of solution.  Weak.

 

My two main complains once done, and they have already been mentioned.

- Three in a boat?

- The Tinkers and their song

 

I was really looking forward to both as they were stressed multiple times.  Nothing :(

[Kelandon]

By the way, my guess on the growing songs is that the Ogier have now figured out what's up. They sang growing songs during their battle. Rand sang some growing songs when other people (for example, Mat) were around. It wouldn't be too hard to piece it together. It won't be like the Age of Legends growing songs, though, because those also included the Nym, and there are none of those left.

 

Nonetheless, presumably the Tinkers and the Ogier will hang out and figure out some songs early in the Fourth Age, based on the above.

[Viperswhip]

I don't think the Tinker's song was stressed exactly. They wandered around looking for a song, but they also wandered around looking for a place of safety, which they found in the loving arms of the Seanchan apparently. Not only that, if the song is to come again, it won't be coming again any time soon, maybe not even until the next AoL or whatever #age that is.

 

Did you really want to see some sort of Viking funeral with Elayne, Min, and Avi standing in a boat (super dangerous by the way lol)? It's pretty much a metaphorical separation from the rest of everyone, except Alivia. They know Rand is alive.

[Jhirrad]

I really agree with Mark D's post early on about how everything at the end was so tidy and quick.  Very disappointing.  Hundreds of pages of build up for each situation, a paragraph or two of solution.  Weak.

 

My two main complains once done, and they have already been mentioned.

- Three in a boat?

- The Tinkers and their song

 

I was really looking forward to both as they were stressed multiple times.  Nothing :(

 

The three in a boat, well, some are arguing that that kind of happened, as the girls stand over Rand's funeral pyre. I dunno if I buy it, but there it is.

 

For the song, that happened. Rand, singing very softly, while speaking with Tuon. Rand, creating the Great Trees at the Field of Merrilor. That was Rand Singing. That's the Tinker Song. They didn't get it themselves, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Besides, the base question of what the song is has been answered since The Shadow Rising when Rand went through those ter'angreal. 

[Viperswhip]

The Tinkers aren't looking for the song of growing probably, it seems grander than that, probably a delusion, but that's what they are looking for. After all, if the song brought peace, it didn't work very well in the AoL.

[MarkDiLillo]

In my mind, the Nakomi question has been firmly answered now.  Whoever found the background of her name and compared it to her giving Egwene the dream ter'angreal pretty much nailed it (Terez?  not sure if it was you or someone else from theoryland and you just pasted it over here).  The rest was all speculation, but that is classic RJ right there.

[Amandera]

I doubt Tinkers have the talent of Singing anymore. While other people could've had the talent, in the AoL, the Singing was mostly limited to the Aiel and the Ogier. That implies some sort of genetic component. After thousands years of mixed blood, it seems unlikely they would have the Talent.