[Regimental Book Discussion] The Finns

[Davrick]

While they may not have a direct connection to the band, I feel they play a big part in the formation of the band. So I thought this would be a fun topic to discus for this months discussion. Please remember that not everyone has finished the books yet, so if you think it will be a spoiler use the spoiler tags. Also please don't post any AMoL spoilers. So please enjoy the discussion and share your thoughts on them or maybe even share what you would ask/wish fore if you want!

 

I love the finns! I've always enjoyed when they were in the books. I mean who wouldn't? You get to have some questions answered and you can wish for some things. It's like having two genies bottles! Although that being said I don't think I would find them as interesting as I do if they were like genies. I really enjoy the fact that you have to be careful how you word things around them.

 

 

 

Regimental Book Discussion

 

As it is the books that brought us here, it shall be the books that keep us here! Thus, we will be participating in monthly regimental book discussions! Each month, one of the regiments will host a discussion based on the books and the Band of the Red Hand. However, every fourth month, a member of the Senior Staff will begin a discussion on the main Band boards which will encompass either a new topic, or a review of the three topics discussed by each regiment. These discussions can concentrate solely on Mat or other characters that we meet through the Band of the Red Hand, or other battle like circumstances that have effected the Band, but they must have a connection to the Band of the Red Hand in order to be considered a valid Regimental Book Discussion.

 

Rules:

-Label the discussion with the following format: [Regimental Book Discussion] Your Title/Subject Here

-Be sure to mark which books the discussion will scan - if your comment lays outside the boundaries of the books listed, please hide the content as a spoiler.

-In order to gain points in these discussions, you must post at least three thoughtful posts during the month (considered to be the 1st - 25th of each month). You can earn a maximum of 25 points per month by participating in these discussions.

-Each post can receive up to five points, depending on complexity, thoughtfulness and accuracy, for a maximum of 25 points.

-Points will be awarded by the C-G hosting the regiment with the aid of the MG/UC.

-The discussion must involve the Band of the Red Hand in the Books or be connected to the Band of the Red Hand.

-If you would like to host a Regimental Book Discussion in place of the CG of your regiment, you will be awarded 5 additional points. (CG's will receive these points as part of their staff pay)

[The Bard Babe]

I love the Finns, they're brilliantly written to be simultaneously awesome and creepy. They're nightmare material later on in a sneaky kinda way, but I always want to read more about them.

[Davrick]

I am kinda hoping we will see or hear more about them.

[Andrej]

How far into the books have you gotten, Dav?

[BFG]

"Have a grand bloody day"

 

That is all :)

[Davrick]

How far into the books have you gotten, Dav?

I've read them all cept for amol

[Jeannaisais]

*looks around sheepishly* I don't completely remember the Finns. What book are they introduced in? I'm doing a reread of the series and am about 70% of the way through FoH

[Tyler Glembo]

There are two things that have always bothered me about the interactions with the Finns

 

1) Mat's cavalier attitude even after meeting them.  Yes, Mat is a cavalier type of guy, but for an innocent small town farm boy to suddenly be thrown into another dimension and then react by talking fast and furious at an obviously solemn council of otherwordly creatures was a bit much.  Then he does it again.  You would think that after the first time he would have at least learned a little bit.

 

2) That Mat never rolls the dice when they play Snakes and Foxes.  He has an incredibly cavalier attitude about meeting them and going against them in another dimension, but playing a board game with a child that involves the idea of them?  No way, that is serious!!!

[Christine]

The Finns are the ones that Matt asks questions of in the Stone and demands things of in Rhuidean.

 

 

My biggest thing about the Finns is that they are so absurdly creepy, I don't even want to read that part of the book, BUT, there is so much foreshadowing going on.  I mean, look at the foxhead medallion as one piece.  This completely changes Mat's character with the ability to be untouched by Aes Sedai.

[BFG]

@jen - they're introduced in tSR when they're in the Stone and before the heroes scatter

tGS(? - possibly from KoD) spoiler

(although ToG is seen in tEotW, but not identified),

 

 

 

link to wot wiki...

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

 

 

Finns refer to Aelfinn and Eelfinn... Aelfinn look like snakes and answer questions, the Eelfinn look like foxes and give 'gifts'.

 

 

 

Spoilers for tSR (mostle - a little bit from Towers)

 

 

So to summarise the Finns in the books...

 

Finnland can be reached through either twisted doorways in the Stone and Rhuidean that lead directly through to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn sections, each doorway can be used once only (I think), or through the Tower of Genji (sp?) (ToG) which kind of leads to nomans land. Entering through the doors gives the person that enters a degree of protection - it protects them until they've either asked their questions or made their demands. Entering in through no-mans land doesn't.

 

We only really see Finnland through Mat, in teh Stone he is torn between helping in the 2R or staying with Rand, Eg tells him about the Doorway and Mat goes through without really understanding the consequences.

 

He ends up sidetracked about the questions he asks and ends up with the following answers:

 

they prophesied he would:

 

Go to Rhuidean.

If he does not go to Rhuidean he will die.

He would die, because he will have sidestepped fate and would be killed by "those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

 

He then refuses to leave and the place starts to shake until they answer a little better (what his destiny is):

 

To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

To die and live again, and live once more as part of what was.

To give up half the light of the world to save the world

 

As he leaves he sees Moiraine and Rand, we haven't found out Moiraines or Rands questions yet - Moiraine believes that asking about the DO (and likely tDR) is dangerous, although that may be her error. We later find out that part of Rands answeres are that 'to live he must die' and 'the east and south must be as 1, the North and west must be as 1, the 2 must be as 1' (both paraphrased).

 

In Rhuidean Mat goes in through a second doorway, expecting to go back to the snakes, instead he seees the foxes who grant three wishes. Mat doesn't know this and ends up asking for:

 

A way to be free of AS - his ter'angreal

The holes in his memory filled - stuffed with previous lives

An exit - his ashanderai (the big unnoticed thing that was talked about until Towers) - Mat assumed that it was them throwing him out and his forgetting to mention that he wanted to leave alive, but I think that was the 'price' not the 'gift'.

 

They both feed off emotion, when Rand and Mat (as both are strong taveran) are in their at the same time, it almost tears their connection with Randland apart.

 

 

 

Assorted spoilers up to Towers

 

 

Mat goes back through the ToG to rescue Moiraine - foreshadowed heavily by Min and Eg (e.g. Thom pulling out a blue stone from the fire).

 

Before they go, they talk to Birgette and discover that she went once to try to save Gaidal and died their - she entered through the Tower and wasn't protected by the agreement that holds for entering through a doorway.

 

When Mat enters the second time he ends up at the foxes again and asks 3 more 'gifts'

essentially: to escape with Moiraine, for the way out to be unblocked and to be left alone (but he specifies by the foxes, which allows the snakes to give chase - hence Noels/Jains sacrifice). The price for this is his eye.

 

Moiraine has also had 3 gifts - 1 is the angreal bracelet, not sure of the others. Lanfear also had 3 'gifts', I bleieve (but can't remember how/why I know this) that 1 was to be the strongest female AS, but since she already was they took power from her, although leaving her stronger than Nyn, it means that as Cyndane she's weaker than Alivia. Moridin went in after Lanfear, but it isn't clear if he had 3 'gifts' or just threatened them with 'fire' to get what he wanted.

 

 

 

The contact between worlds is old - the Seanchan have legends about them.

 

 

 

 

the Game (up to Towers)

 

 

I think the game (Olvers) is supposed to serve as a reminder of the rules of their world. The symbol that starts the Game is the key to entering the ToG, fire, iron and music all hurt/confuse the snakes and foxes - according to Birgette taking them isn't cheating, it's being smart.

 

Additionally I think Mats escape from the Tower is meant to coincide with Olvers victory in the game, although the timing may be a little off - Mat appears to escape early evening - their is shade and the insects are out, but Olver wins shortly before nightfall - fires over Caemlyn...) But their's enough leeway that I think this is undoubtably meant to be the case (plus in reral world depending on latitude dusk can be very short).

 

 

 

EDIT: or read Christines more concise summarty :) I agree they're seriously creepy, but I wonder if the Band would have ever formed without them?

[Jeannaisais]

The Finns are the ones that Matt asks questions of in the Stone and demands things of in Rhuidean.

 

 

My biggest thing about the Finns is that they are so absurdly creepy, I don't even want to read that part of the book, BUT, there is so much foreshadowing going on.  I mean, look at the foxhead medallion as one piece.  This completely changes Mat's character with the ability to be untouched by Aes Sedai.

 

Gah I'm such an idiot. I know that - if you had said the creepy guys inside the ter'angreal (or is it a sa'angreal) I would have known EXACTLY who you were talking about.

 

Forgive my scatter brained existence.

 

So, my thoughts on them. They're portrayed as so manipulative and creepy but I feel like they're just a source of foreshadowing to keep you reading to see how what they say will play in.

[Andrej]

Very strange and creepy people, the Finns. The snakes were definitely worse, IMO, with the way they seemed to have 'fed' off of Mat's energy. Also, whenever they were leading him to the main chamber how the book described the scenery outside never changing as he passed by each of the windows would've been very unnerving.

[BFG]

@Andrej - the foxes did exactly the same when they fed off Mats pain (presumably both times). I'd also think that running up and down the same corridor but ending up in different places would be equally unnerving :)

 

 

So is the question here (as pertains to the Band at any rate - elsewhere the question is what were those questions asked) Would the Band have formed without the Finns?

 

On the one hand you have the Pattern requiring Mat to become military leader, but it's possible that without the Finns his path would be closer to Perrins (without the interminable Faile stuff - sorry if anyone's a fan), but without the knowledge the Finns gave Mat I can't see Daerid or Talmanes following Mat at Cairhien. But the Finns called Mat 'son of Battles' or some such - and I believe it was in a similar way to his destiny to marry the 9 moons, which implies that battles were in his blood regardless of the memories...

 

 

I don't have any real strong feelings on this, but I think that something like the Band would have formed regardless of whether he got those memories or not, but more would have died without the memories.

 

Any thoughts?

[Tyler Glembo]

It is a clever catch-22.  If he had not visited the Finns they would not have had the chance to title him "son of battles."  They also would not have had the chance to give him his destiny through filling his brains with memories of battles.  Therefore, by visiting the Finns they were able to both give him his destiny and also give him the ability to live his destiny all in one.

 

I think that Mat's ta'veren nature made this happen in the first place.  As ta'veren, he pulled the threads of the pattern around himself (and Rand pulled him) in order to ensure that he would meet the Finn's and they would both name him son of battles and then also make him the son of battles.  

[Tyler Glembo]

As to the last question, I don't think the Band would have formed if he hadn't gone to the Finns.  Wasn't there something about him having to go to Rhuidean otherwise he would die?

[BFG]

As to the last question, I don't think the Band would have formed if he hadn't gone to the Finns. Wasn't there something about him having to go to Rhuidean otherwise he would die?

 

You're right, although this implies that Mat not going to Rhuidean is a way of 'breaking' the pattern. Min's first viewing of Mat has an eye on the balance scale and her viewings always come true, unless the pattern breaks. That's pretty cool.

[Tyler Glembo]

I would very much like to see Min's viewings suddenly shift when Rand is around as he bends the pattern.  That would be interesting.

[Davrick]

So is the question here (as pertains to the Band at any rate - elsewhere the question is what were those questions asked) Would the Band have formed without the Finns?

I don't think the band would have formed.  I believe Mat didn't have any knowledge of the battlefield prior to visiting the finns.  So chances are he could have gathered a small force similar to how Perrin started after going back to the Two Rivers. 

 

It was the combination of Mat's luck and memories that got people to take notice of him and want to follow him.

[dicetosser1]

There are two things that have always bothered me about the interactions with the Finns

 

1) Mat's cavalier attitude even after meeting them.  Yes, Mat is a cavalier type of guy, but for an innocent small town farm boy to suddenly be thrown into another dimension and then react by talking fast and furious at an obviously solemn council of otherwordly creatures was a bit much.  Then he does it again.  You would think that after the first time he would have at least learned a little bit.

 

2) That Mat never rolls the dice when they play Snakes and Foxes.  He has an incredibly cavalier attitude about meeting them and going against them in another dimension, but playing a board game with a child that involves the idea of them?  No way, that is serious!!!

Highlighted    he doesnt want his luck winning the game. After all the game is "unwinnable" but his luck may have chaanged that and he didnt want that for Olver

 

 

 

Without the Finns the Band would NOT have formed because he would not have had the memories which allow the Band to "never lose"  However he WAS destined to enter the Ter'angreals.

[Cbinpdx]

The Finns are totally creepy. I was asked (maybe in 100 questions?) what my 3 questions/3 answers would be if I visited the Finns.

 

I wouldn't go through one of those red doorways unless the fate of the world depended on it.  Which is just what our two ta'veren (and Moiraine) did. I wonder how many people would allow greed to get the better of them and decide to go through the doorway, why not, what the hell, "because it was there"? 

 

Because even if you were as forewarned and cautious as Moiraine, there's still the possibility of utter disaster and death for anyone who attempts it.  

 

I can never remember which are the Aelfinn and which are the Eelfinn. I remember the ones he spoke with in the ToG called him "Son of Battles", but did they do it in the earlier visits too?

 

The Band as we know it would not have been created without the visits to Finnland. Mat would have found other ways to tug the Pattern...an army might have been involved...and his enemies would have killed him (everybody dies, they didn't say WHEN he would die) - IF the Finns really could read the future and were not just tricking people into self-fulfilling prophecies. They are tricksome creatures...

[BFG]

He was first referred to as 'son of battles' in SR when he went through the door at Tear...

 

Something along the lines of 'go to Rhuidean son of battles, go to Rhuidean trickster, go to Rhuidean gambler, go' when they wanted to get rid of him.

 

But his going in at least once was part of the Pattern from EotW - Min had a viewing of him losing his eye (third time in), although she didn't know how to interpret it at the time. That's not to say that him going through in Rhuidean, or even in Tear was part of the Pattern tho. Course without the knowledge gained when he was at least a little protected by the agreement he wouldn't have survived the ToG entrance.

 

*muses*

[Davrick]

Yep yep.  I am a bit sad I can't remember this but why did he go into the first doorway again?

[Andrej]

Yep yep.  I am a bit sad I can't remember this but why did he go into the first doorway again?

He went through wanting answers as to why he had holes in his memory.

[Davrick]

Ahh thanks! I just read something in AMoL that I found very interesting but I'm not going to talk about it here.

[BFG]

I thought the first doorway was because he wanted to know if he should stay with Rand or go back to the 2 Rivers with Perrin, Eg had told him that they answered true questions. He went through the second doorway because he was 'unhappy' with the answers he got and thought he was going to the same place and could ask more questions. Instead he got through to the foxes and ended up (unknowingly) asking for the holes in his memory to be filled, a way to be free of AS and a way out.